The Great Debate

[GivensOU]

Oh great and wise Simple Discus community, I call on you to settle the great debate between father and son. We both believe in daily WC, but some believe that better filtration means you can do 30-40% daily WC, while some believe a sponge filter and 50-60% water changes are better for growing out discus.

So for your consideration:

Both tanks are bare bottom tanks, both tanks are 100 gallons and are growing out 10 3’’-4’’ discus. All discus are feed a mix of beefheart and FDBW


Tank A: Runs two sponge filters and does daily 50%-60% WC.

Tank B. Runs a Fluval FX6 with purigen, ammonia chips, and biomax. It also has a Fluval C4 with basic media. Between the two filters you’re turning the water over every 5-6 minutes. Also does daily WC of 30-40%.

Which tank do you think will do better for growing out the discus and maybe a sentence or two supporting your point of view.

Thanks for your time,
Tim

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tim, I have an even better idea. Time for a bet :D along with two growout threads right here on SimplyDiscus. Also welcome to Simply.
Pat

Personally more filtration will never replace clean water.

[LizStreithorst]

There is no substitute for good clean water. The more you overdo WC the better the fish will do.

[rickztahone]

I'd select the 2 sponge filters with 60% daily water changes if it were me. Here's the thing though, I huge factor for me is the purpose of the tank. If I have a show piece tank in the living room, there is no way I am putting sponge filters in there. If it is a grow out tank, I sure will just use sponge filters and a couple of sponges. It really is just a means to an end.

[GivensOU]

871098711087111

[GivensOU]

A couple of the discus we are growing out.

[brewmaster15]

My 2 cents... statistically theres not much difference in the water changes.

Id actually suggest same water changes and keep the filtration as the variable. It would add much to the discussion of whether filtration can Be a substitute for wcs By demonstrating if one filtration is better than another.
imho,
Al

[FMA4ME]

There is no substitute for good clean water. The more you overdo WC the better the fish will do.

I agree here. I'd say tank A for growing out. I still would run more than a sponge filter though, once grown I'd happily ditch the sponge filter.

[FMA4ME]

871098711087111

What little beauties!! :D Merry Christmas also! :D

[GivensOU]

Al,

We recently purchased your FDBW with bio-pigment plus. They had some tonight and loved them. We can't wait to see the results.

[GivensOU]

What little beauties!! :D Merry Christmas also! :D

Yea, one of the 100 gallon tanks seam gave out. Lucky we had a water alarm because it went out at 1:00 am Friday night. So, I normally paint the tanks but because of the situation I couldn't, so I grab what was handy.

[cellingson]

No detectable difference.

[brewmaster15]

Al,

We recently purchased your FDBW with bio-pigment plus. They had some tonight and loved them. We can't wait to see the results.
:):thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Thank you!

al

[Reesj]

Both of you seems to be disturbing the fish with water changes on a daily basis . I personally do not see much difference in the 2 methods. BTW there are some research considering discus growth and water changes down by academics. If you can read those, that should be a good guide also imo.

[Discus-n00b]

They are probably pretty close to each other, I personally prefer the sponges and method A, its a setup that has been used for years. For me, the canister is just a greater chance at trapping wastes. Like Ricardo though, I'd much rather look at a tank without sponges as a display (after the discus have grown out) but grow them out in a sponge tank.

[strawberryblonde]

I'm hoping that you decide to make a thread to track the progress of your growout tanks. It would be interesting to see which tank gets the best results.

And now I'm going to give you my personal experience and why I don't think either tank is best. =)

My first purchase of discus was a group of 4" fish. Being new to the hobby, I was pretty anxious about water changes, so I decided to err on the side of caution. I had intended to do one 80-90% water change per day till they were 6". Instead, I had to do 2 changes per day because my tank seemed to get stuck in a mini-cycle when I added the discus.

3 weeks later the motor in my brand new canister filter blew out and I ended up placing two fully cycled sponge filters into the tank while yet another brand new canister filter started to cycle. At that point (hearing the purr of the new motor in the canister) I realized that my mini-cycle was the result of a faulty canister filter all along!

And at that point, I just continued with my twice daily water changes till I was sure the tank was cycled and out of the woods.

I never really stopped doing the water changes. When my discus reached 6" I cut back to once per day, but still 90% in volume. I had abandoned the canister filter by then, preferring to run a sponge filter and a sump.

Feedings were Al's FDBW's, a mix of Discus Flake food and frozen Beefheart. 6 feedings a day/90% water changes per day.

I have jumbo discus! I've repeated the method a few times now and get the same results each time. Jumbo discus (over 8" nose to tail).

I'm currently raising a new tank of discus using that method, but switching it up a bit by not going bare bottom. It's risky and I'm nervous about it, but have added a bit of sand, driftwood stumps and about 20 plants to the tank along with a school of 50 cardinal tetra's. I'm running 2 HOB filters on that tank (it's 120 gallons) that are stuffed with poret foam and use poret foam as pre-filters on the intakes.

The new discus have been in the tank for one month today and have grown quickly, so I'm thinking it's working well.

But I never miss a day and the water changes are still 90%! Oh and no beefheart for these guys since there are plants and driftwood in the tank which would hide the uneaten food.

I can't prove that twice daily water changes of 90% plus the 6 feedings a day is what makes my discus grow so large. I just feel, personally, that super clean water is the best possible environment that I can provide for optimal growth.

Since both of you are very close together in the amount of water you are changing, maybe one of you could up the water changes and we'd be able to compare and contrast the growth rates? (Uh huh, I don't have two free tanks to do a comparison myself, so I'm trying to get you to do it.. I'm shameless that way!)

[Fish_Fin-atic]

Out of curiosity, does anyone still subscribe to the theory that growing juvie Discus put out a "growth suppressing hormone" which stunts the growth of other Discus in their tanks, unless copious WC's are done to remove the hormone? If this is possible, I'd say, maximum WC's would be better for grow out tanks... if this theory has been disproved, then I'd say either of these tanks would be fine.

[Chicago Discus]

Out of curiosity, does anyone still subscribe to the theory that growing juvie Discus put out a "growth suppressing hormone" which stunts the growth of other Discus in their tanks, unless copious WC's are done to remove the hormone? If this is possible, I'd say, maximum WC's would be better for grow out tanks... if this theory has been disproved, then I'd say either of these tanks would be fine.

This is an interesting question. I don't believe in the theory of "Growth Suppressing Hormone", what I believe is happening is the smaller fish are not getting as much food as the larger ones. Discus fry from the same batch will grow at different rates and separating them from the larger ones will get better results. So what I believe is happening is that the smaller fish are getting less food and tend to not be in a good position in the tank to receive it.

To the original post- There are many different variables to consider when growing out young discus and getting the maximum growth. In my opinion the best way to achieve the maximum growth is "cleanliness" and "water change". Ok so what I mean is that you can have an air-stone only or a huge canister filter both will work fine. The only difference is that you will be cleaning your canister filter so much that it will irritate you to no end. Letting stuff collect on any filter while growing out young discus can cause issues with growth. The best method I have come up with is what I call the "Flush Method" meaning once a day preferably after the messiest feeding you flush your tank with fresh clean aerated water. and rinse the sponge filter under tap water.

The best way to describe this method is this video,

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee11QkmIqxA

[brewmaster15]

Out of curiosity, does anyone still subscribe to the theory that growing juvie Discus put out a "growth suppressing hormone" which stunts the growth of other Discus in their tanks, unless copious WC's are done to remove the hormone? If this is possible, I'd say, maximum WC's would be better for grow out tanks... if this theory has been disproved, then I'd say either of these tanks would be fine.

Paul,
Theres been alot of discussion on Growth suppression and inhibition hormones being put out by fish like discus and the consensus is it doesn't make much sense in an aquatic organism like a fish.. However it is documented for plants at least incases where one plant species puts out chemicals or phyto-hormones to inhibit the growth of other plant species. It has also been shown to a degree that plants can do so within their own species. This would make sense as they are stationary and have limited resources at their disposal so the need to protect them was an incentive to evolve chemical defenses.

Off topic, interesting vid on it... http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/what-plants-talk-about-video-full-episode/8243/ its on netflix also. might me surprised by how much chemical communication goes on among plants.
hth,
al

[nc0gnet0]

Out of curiosity, does anyone still subscribe to the theory that growing juvie Discus put out a "growth suppressing hormone" which stunts the growth of other Discus in their tanks, unless copious WC's are done to remove the hormone? If this is possible, I'd say, maximum WC's would be better for grow out tanks... if this theory has been disproved, then I'd say either of these tanks would be fine.

This is one of those Whack-a-do theory's that just refuses to die.

In the general scheme of evolutionary design, in order for a mutation to disperse it self through a specific species, it has to offer an advantage to those that carry it, eventually allowing them to out compete their non mutated brethren and through many generations, replace them.

Ok you say, that could happen in a fish population like Discus overtime, as in theory it would in fact allow the fish that carried this "mutation" a distinct advantage (assuming of course they were also immune to their own growth inhibiting hormone).

Here is the problem with that theory..........

The amazon river dumps 60 million gallons of water into the Atlantic ocean every second. That is one massive, continual water change. In order for this "hormone" to have any effect at all in the Discus's native environment, this hormone would have to be extremely potent at nearly undetectable levels. If it were not, then it would have no effect, offer no advantage, and thus not give those that carried it any distinct advantage, as such it would eventually attrite itself out of the gene pool.

If it in fact was this potent, we would see drastic discrepancy's in growth of all tank bred discus, rendering it nearly impossible to raise them, regardless if we did daily water changes.

Does more/cleaner water positively effect the growth rate of Discus? Absolutely. Is it do to the fact we are keeping a hormone in check? Absolutely not.

[William Palumbo]

Nailed it Rick...Again!...Bill

[plecocicho]

First of all, discus dont live in the amzon but in samll streams or lakes. Those are still pool sized and get even larger during flooding. But one must consider the natural forumla which gives such clean, nutrient poor water in which discus live. Besides rain and flooding, very low conductivity, low ph and tannins also play an important role. Even lowland white water habitats with a relatevitally high primary production (compared to clear and blackwater) have low conducitivity and neutral or even slightly low pH.

Second, growth hormone is a mit, but it doesnt mean that fish dont use it. Catfish, tetras and cyprinids have special schreckstoff (scary agent) cells, which upon a rupture release afromentioned scary agent, which informs other fish in shoal, there is an imminent danger happening. Also some charchinids (tetras) with internal fertilisation pruduce special pheronomes to attract females. So diluton by water isnt important for such kind of moleculas.

[rickztahone]

Don't let John hear this hormone talk...