water questions

[considering discus]

Hi. I've recently broke down my reef tank and I'm thinking about switching to discus. I'm doing my research but there are a few questions I'm hoping someone can help clarify.

Discus require constant water changes and I see a lot of people talk about bare bottom tanks and tremendous wc volumes, but how does that not start a mini re-cycle and cause nitrite/nitrate spikes?

I'm also wondering if anyone knows what benefit (aside from nitrate reduction) the water changes have. Wouldn't a sufficient buildup of anaerobic bacteria complete the nitro cycle and turn the nitrates to gas? I know water changes will always be needed but it seems the frequency would be stressful on the water biology. SPS coral requires 0 nitrates and with work can be maintained. I know reef and discus are worlds apart but the nitro cycle is the same isn't it?

The last question is about RODI water. Wouldn't supplements be needed to make 'clean' water habitable for freshwater livestock?

Just wanting to make sure I understand everything before I bite off more than I can chew, so thanks for any help!!

[cellingson]

Take what I say with a grain of salt as I am only starting to getting into discus and am currently growing out juveniles for my planted freshwater tank.

I had similar questions when I started and got a tremendous amount of different responses.

I think the ease of the bare bottom tank is keeping it clean. Without question each time you feed food particles are going to get into your filter and continue the cycle, so I don't think you have to worry about losing your tanks beneficial bacteria. The bare bottom allows ease of cleaning extra food. Discus food is pretty messy in comparison.

Lots of people speculate about the benefits of water changes. I asked this question and got a variety of responses: that it removes Nitrates, aids in redox reduction reactions, removes organic compounds, and it just works. Personally I think the benefit is that it removes discus growth inhibiting molecules (not sure what the scientific word is I am looking for). I have no proof but my education in ecology and evolutionary biology. In the wild there are many animal and plant species that try and inhibit the growth of the other to improve their own survival. I believe discus do the same. Each releasing its own compounds into the water to inhibit the growth of the other. Frequent water changes remove this molecule and prevent each discus from preventing the growth of the others. I have no proof but I may try an experiment testing my theories in the future. That being said I think the most benefit with daily water changes come with growing out juveniles.
The consensus in RO/DI water only needed if breeding discus.

[Altum Nut]

Hi. I've recently broke down my reef tank and I'm thinking about switching to discus. I'm doing my research but there are a few questions I'm hoping someone can help clarify.

Discus require constant water changes and I see a lot of people talk about bare bottom tanks and tremendous wc volumes, but how does that not start a mini re-cycle and cause nitrite/nitrate spikes?

I'm also wondering if anyone knows what benefit (aside from nitrate reduction) the water changes have. Wouldn't a sufficient buildup of anaerobic bacteria complete the nitro cycle and turn the nitrates to gas? I know water changes will always be needed but it seems the frequency would be stressful on the water biology. SPS coral requires 0 nitrates and with work can be maintained. I know reef and discus are worlds apart but the nitro cycle is the same isn't it?

The last question is about RODI water. Wouldn't supplements be needed to make 'clean' water habitable for freshwater livestock?

Just wanting to make sure I understand everything before I bite off more than I can chew, so thanks for any help!!

First let’s start by welcoming you to Simply Discus...

You will find very useful information that I'm sure will cover your water related concerns here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120070-water-questions

In addition if have not already...spend some time and browse through the beginners section.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners

R/O is mainly used for breeding and/or with wild discus and usually used mixed with tap water depending on what your water source parameters are.

Remember there is no dumb question, so ask at will when in need.

Lastly...when you feel you’re ready for the plunge, the last most important is to start with quality discus which will better ease your transition without surprises and highly recommend Discus from one of our many SD sponsors http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?42-SimplyDiscus-Sponsors

Enjoy the Discus addiction,
...Ralph

[considering discus]

Take what I say with a grain of salt as I am only starting to getting into discus and am currently growing out juveniles for my planted freshwater tank.

I had similar questions when I started and got a tremendous amount of different responses.

I think the ease of the bare bottom tank is keeping it clean. Without question each time you feed food particles are going to get into your filter and continue the cycle, so I don't think you have to worry about losing your tanks beneficial bacteria. The bare bottom allows ease of cleaning extra food. Discus food is pretty messy in comparison.

Lots of people speculate about the benefits of water changes. I asked this question and got a variety of responses: that it removes Nitrates, aids in redox reduction reactions, removes organic compounds, and it just works. Personally I think the benefit is that it removes discus growth inhibiting molecules (not sure what the scientific word is I am looking for). I have no proof but my education in ecology and evolutionary biology. In the wild there are many animal and plant species that try and inhibit the growth of the other to improve their own survival. I believe discus do the same. Each releasing its own compounds into the water to inhibit the growth of the other. Frequent water changes remove this molecule and prevent each discus from preventing the growth of the others. I have no proof but I may try an experiment testing my theories in the future. That being said I think the most benefit with daily water changes come with growing out juveniles.
The consensus in RO/DI water only needed if breeding discus.

I hadn't considered the growth inhibitor issue. Thank you. I'll have to look into that.

The bacteria in filter media makes sense. I just assumed such a large amount of new water wouldn't allow the bacteria to stabilize and cause fluctuations, especially with no substrate to help house the flora.

[SwagFish]

Hey, I'm also new but about water changes and bacteria look at this thread. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120033-Interesting-abstract-on-aquarium-bacteria-after-waterchange It's a pretty interesting abstract and might offer some insight into the big water changes and their effects on bacteria populations.

About the large frequent water changes I'm no expert but in addition to nitrate removal I believe that they are mainly to take out the extra food, feces, ammonia, and just bad stuff in general.

-Andy

[emu1sive]

Ello!

I started with discus and then started a reef. (love both btw)

From my experience running both tanks, the rate at which nitrate rises is SIGNIFICANTLY greater in a discus tank than in a reef.
When you're growing out you're putting alot of food into the water. Especially if you use beefheart. It requires almost an immediate water change in my opinion. FDBW are great since they are not quite as messy. Discus love water changes and their beauty really shines through when they are happy. Stressed discus turn brown and look sad.

Water changes for discus is like water top offs for a reef.

[MadMatt]

My wife and I have kept discus for quite some time, we have two large community discus tank (bare bottom), two grow out tanks, and 6 breeder tanks.
Depending on your filtration system you can do only weekly water changes at 25%, however with less filtration you will need more water changes.
Ex:our 120g has 17 discus, we run an FX5, fluval 306 and an aquatop UV canister filter, we also have three Chinese bio sponges for aeration as well. We change 20% weekly if we are lucky, our water is tested twice a week, it's always great and our guys are always bright and happy.
However in our 27g breeder tank we only have a sponge filter and we do 40% daily.
Our 120g
87684

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there and welcome to the forums! I started my discus journey on these forums a few years ago and by following the sound advice of the people here I've managed to be successful in growing out large discus who are beautiful and rewarding. I hope that you'll find the same results.

So here's what I've learned about water for discus in a nutshell:

1) There is a misconception that's common in fish keeping that says that the substrate and water column contain substantial amounts of the beneficial bacteria needed to convert ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates.
In reality, the majority of your beneficial bacteria is held within the filter media. Some media is better at holding large amounts, some not so much. So research that before you choose your filtration.

2) Live sand in a reef aquarium is a totally different animal than sand in a freshwater tank. So not having sand is perfectly ok in a discus tank.

3) Discus live in the amazon, which discharges about 60 million gallons of water into the ocean per second! That's per second! So these fish, while they may live in what looks, to us, like dark, muddy water, are actually living in extremely clean water that never has a chance to build up any nitrates at all.

4) We measure nitrates in our discus tanks and try to keep those numbers under 10ppm, with the optimum at 5ppm. Keeping the numbers that low is no easy task considering the protein rich foods that they consume several times a day. With the higher temps of a discus tank, any uneaten bits degrade quickly, causing a steady rise in nitrates as they are converted by the nitrosonomas bacteria.

5) We don't have a way to measure the levels of harmful bacteria and pathogens in our water columns like we do with nitrates. So, if nitrates are slowly building in the tank, you can bet that harmful pathogens are also slowly building up in the tank. If you check the Emergency section of these forums you'll see that the most common denominator in the diseases is a lack of steady, large water changes. It stands to reason that the slow increase in pathogens eventually overwhelms the immune systems of our discus. So while they may be able to tolerate the "bad" water conditions for a very long period of time, eventually they will sicken, and by then it's often too late to cure them.

I think that's it in the reader's digest condensed version.

Discus don't require RO water unless there is a serious issue with the quality of your tap water. They only require fresh water and lots of it. =)

Large daily water changes won't harm your filters. Bare bottom tanks are best for raising fry and sub-adults. Decor such as driftwood is a nice addition to any tank, even a fry tank. Once discus have reached adulthood (at least 18 months of age), it's ok to add a thin layer of sand, a few plants and bit more driftwood so long as you stay committed to keeping the tank squeaky clean. You might find that you like the bare bottom look though! LOL

[Solid]

Toni as usual hit the nail on the head. Especially with point number 5.

If I'm being nit picky the only thing I disagree with is optimum nitrates would be 0 ppm! :p

We measure nitrates in our discus tanks and try to keep those numbers under 10ppm, with the optimum at 5ppm.

[strawberryblonde]

So true Matt, 0ppm is best, but I know that it's undoable for most discus hobbyists, so I relax that a bit and set the bar at 5ppm. =)

[MadMatt]

So true Matt, 0ppm is best, but I know that it's undoable for most discus hobbyists, so I relax that a bit and set the bar at 5ppm. =)
Your comment about water changes moved me so much I had to go do a 50% change on my 55 community breeding tank (this is where we put our new males or females to see how they act before we pick out the couple we are pairing).
Realizing I haven't done a water change on this tank in the last 6 days you made me feel guilty and I had to do one!...lol

87707

[strawberryblonde]

LOL, I'm just heading out to the family room to do one on my big tank! And yep, I'm feeling guilty because I didn't do it last night and promised myself I'd do it first thing this morning - and now it's late afternoon and they're still sitting in 2 day old water.

Maybe we should form a Guilt Club? We can all trash talk each other for missed water changes! LOL

[100fuegos]

Oh dear. Fell asleep last night in the couch and woke up at 02:00 AM to do my daily 100% (flush method) WC in my fry tank and 95 + % in my community bb tank lol.

[MadMatt]

LOL, I'm just heading out to the family room to do one on my big tank! And yep, I'm feeling guilty because I didn't do it last night and promised myself I'd do it first thing this morning - and now it's late afternoon and they're still sitting in 2 day old water.

Maybe we should form a Guilt Club? We can all trash talk each other for missed water changes! LOL

Lol!!!
No kidding... The guilty club here we come.

[Quintin]

Yip so true I try do at least 50% a day and when I miss it I keep my head low and do 80% the following day

[miguelnight]

Just water-changed my tank also. I do at least two 50% percent water changes weekly--more if I'm going on vacation. I have a 90g (discus), 56 (discus) and 40g (angels). I have excellent filtration. My filtration is double what the tanks require. I've never heard of discus dying due to excessive water change--so water change away. May you all continue to have healthy and happy discus!