Pigeon pair laying eggs surprise!

[MadMatt]

So here we are with a nice surprise, I caught them in the act!!! And yes I was ready!
So after a bunch of failed attempts to get my pairs to spawn again with success, I was failing miserably!
So I decided to reset up a totally new and more usable breeding system.
With all six 20 gallons on top and three 30 gallon grow outs on the bottom. So away we went and built away I did. The pairs and juvenile settled in and all my pairs stop spawning!...lol ... Go figure.
But I read a lot on SD and took advise from a lot of experts like Liz, John, Ralph and many others, and I was patient, I did have a few pairs spawn but they all became egg eaters. I figured they were still settling in and just getting comfortable. During this time I took advantage to sterilize the tanks, make them super clean, revamp my water changing set up, and started changing 50-75% water everyday! I did have a a female from my pair get super stressed from the move and gill flukes took her over for a bit, I did try some different mess that did t minimal at best, I ended up getting it under control with potassium permanganate and problem is 99% gone upon her as well.
So here I am waiting and hoping, then getting discouraged, but I kept the faith and bang!!!!
A nice size spawn and I was ready with methionine blue in hand with air stone in the next.
Ph8.3 and steady as a rock!
TDS 50ppm
Tap water and R/O blend
Temp 82-83degrees
50% WC daily
This is my first real attempt for a successful spawn since I set it up over a month ago.
I have my figure crossed and let's see what happens!
:)


88715

For some reason this pair has become egg eaters the first two days, and ninja egg eaters at that, these guy eat it thru the damn screen (I don't know how they even manage to do this! Anyone else have this happen?), so this time I put a partition in to stop any possible ninja egg eating!
88716
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[MadMatt]

Nothing happened, failed spawn.
They spawn again 2 more times then then and nothign again.
I've lost count how many times this has happened.
I'm coming to the point I'm going to pay an experienced Discus Breeder and a water expert to come to my hobby aquarium room and figure out what the heck is going on!
I think I have lost over 70 plus spawns in the last 10 months or so. 5-6pairs trying to make it happen.
It can't be this hard if so many people are doing it.

[alcastro]

Matt i can't find or have you posted your methods of breeding, TDS etc.

[MadMatt]

No problem bud here it is:
Water parameters:
Temp 82
Ph 8.2
Filtered tap water
Tds 100-120
RO/tap water blend
Tds 30-60
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Natrate0
Wc is 50%-100% daily
I have 6 20g tall breeding tanks, all have hydro sponge, and aquaclear 70, the aquaclear gets unplugged when they are ready to spawn.
All tanks have terracotta breeding cone
All my water is pre-heated for changes, when I want them to spawn I drop temp 3degees and change 70%/of the water with that, I usually have to do this two - three days and then they spawn.
After they spawn I use MB (1cc/1ml per 20g). I also cage off the eggs and put an air stone close to it to increase the movement, once there are wigglers (if it gets to that point) I uncage and let parents tend to the spawn, I have tried with or with out air stone. I have found doing this almost nothing fungus's at all, even most of the time the unfertilized eggs don't even turn white till day 4.
Most of the time wigglers will die half way out of the shell and die in mid wiggle, its actually very weird. Lately (last few months) nothing is getting Fertilized or if it does it just never hatches.
During all of this I still do a min of 50% wc's with water of the same parameters as the tank.
I use to age my water but with a ph swing of 0.2-0.4 I haven't seen any stress on the fish at all so I stopped aging.
I also use to drop my TDS to 25ppm doing spawning out of 20 plus spawns I had the same results as with 125tds.
I tried having the pairs in TDS of 50 for two weeks, hoping the lower TDS will have a thinner egg shell, then lowering it to 25tds when spawning, efforts where invane again, still zero results.
So any thoughts? Discouraged is not a word I would use right now to describe this.

*On a side note something you should know, I'm a member in my city of an aquarium society, I have found out that several other members have attempted to breed soft water fish in our city to only have the identical failures I am experiencing and I'm not sure why.


Matt i can't find or have you posted your methods of breeding, TDS etc.

[alcastro]

OK all looks good so you might have a water issue try this, Rick told me once, Get a couple of containers, round gallon water container or anything u can put the cone with eggs in to it, get some distilled water fill the container put a little bit of air make is at tank temp or close and see if eggs hatch, if they do you my friend have water problem you need to figure out, oh and first do the meth blue for few hours in first container and than move the eggs in distilled water.

[strawberryblonde]

I've never set myself up for intentional breeding with my discus (only with rams, cories, etc). But, I've had many successful discus spawns in my community tank and in a few instances when I felt like dealing with it, I've pulled the fry when they go free swimming.

So, NOT an expert on the subject, but since your water is very close to mine, maybe there are a couple of things I can add, just food for thought.

1) Your tanks look spotless, so do you actually need to add that much MB after the spawn? I've never used MB at all (pH 8.4, TDS 90-110 and in a community tank with 90% daily WC) and haven't had any fungus problems.
If you do have a lot of fungus on the eggs, then their might be something else going on in the water.

2) Have your discus been through rounds of meds? If so, I think that it can cause sterility, at least, that's what I've heard. I had a MR who produced beautiful fry over and over till illness hit my tank. After the rounds of meds he never produced fry again no matter how many times he and his mate got busy.

3) How old are your discus? Have they produced fry in the past for you? Maybe they're still young. I'm thinking that you've already verified that you have a male and female in each tank, so age might be causing this.

4) What foods are you using to condition them? Mine seem to do the best with fry when they are on a steady diet of 1 beefheart feeding, 2 flake feedings and 2 FDBW feedings per day. I use a mix of flakes including immune booster flakes, discus flakes, spirulina flakes and beefheart flakes.

Have no idea if any of this is going to be helpful, but maybe it will spark an idea and send you in a new direction to solve the problem.

[MadMatt]

What do you mean "water problem?" I have used straight tap water, I have tried ro tap water blend, almost 100% RO, and many different ratios of it, I don't think I could sort out this problem with prue RO water, or maybe I can if I use "Discus RO chemicals".


OK all looks good so you might have a water issue try this, Rick told me once, Get a couple of containers, round gallon water container or anything u can put the cone with eggs in to it, get some distilled water fill the container put a little bit of air make is at tank temp or close and see if eggs hatch, if they do you my friend have water problem you need to figure out, oh and first do the meth blue for few hours in first container and than move the eggs in distilled water.

[alcastro]

Their might be something in you water that your not able to detect like bacteria or a mineral that is causing the shell to harden, can't hurt to try it's just an experiment, lots of people in this forum has had the same problem including me, most my fry are now artificially raised, some fry will go free swimming just to die the next day, or you can use pure R/O plus trace elements.

[MadMatt]

So your suggesting, the water may have a mineral that is causing the fertilized eggs shell to harden so much that the larvae can not hatch?
This would make alot of sense and it appears this is exactly what's happening.
By day two only 15% of the eggs turn white, the others turn a dark color only 4-5 eggs wiggle, all the rest seem to die.
How would we extract a certain mineral besides RO?


Their might be something in you water that your not able to detect like bacteria or a mineral that is causing the shell to harden, can't hurt to try it's just an experiment, lots of people in this forum has had the same problem including me, most my fry are now artificially raised, some fry will go free swimming just to die the next day, or you can use pure R/O plus trace elements.

[Second Hand Pat]

Matt, it sounds like trying Rick's distilled water experiment is worth doing and go from there. If you do not feel that the RO unit with carbon block is not producing pure enough water perhaps add a DI to your RO unit and rebuild the water from there.
Pat

[MadMatt]

Hi Pat, thanks again for your response and insight.
I have been struggling with this problem for sometime and its nothing new in my city, as I said before we have several memebrs of our aquarium society that told me they experienced the exact same thing.
I have a new pair that I just confirmed, I was surprised because I thought it was two females till I found eggs on a cone in the corner and they were both guarding it, 2 ½ days later almost all turned white but there was three wigglers on the cone. "Confirmed!" There a pair and both yellow pigeons so there fry should look pretty good if I ever get there.
With this pair I will do the water treatment experiment. There young, fertil, and proven, also these guys have never been medicated so there good.
This should be interesting.
Thanks for all the help guys, it really means a lot. My frustration with this is unbearable, but my frustration only grows into more determination. I will keep smashing forward till a solution appears.
Thanks again, the next time they spawn I will do the test and post pictures of during and outcome.

Thanks again,
MM


Matt, it sounds like trying Rick's distilled water experiment is worth doing and go from there. If you do not feel that the RO unit with carbon block is not producing pure enough water perhaps add a DI to your RO unit and rebuild the water from there.
Pat

[MadMatt]

Toni,
Do you know the water parameters of your lake or water source?
My source is lake St.Claire in Ontario Canada.
I have researched it and I have a copy of the conservation society water parameters read out of the lake. It's pretty extensive. I would love to compare it to your water source.
One of two things are possible:
1.there in deed is a high mineral content that is not conducive to a Discus egg and larvae growth, and this mineral is disrupting the development some how.
Or
2. The method or chemicals the municipality is treating the water is not conducive for the egg and larvae development and growth.
Or
A combination or 1. & 2.
I think if its a certain mineral content I may be able to filter it out with certain types of filter cartridges, if its #2 or both I will have to bread in pure RO with added Discus mininerals.
Either way its looking more and more like using RO might be a more productive way. However with many water changes and a 4:1 water ratio there is alot of waisted water especially when we are doing lots of water changes a day. 0.o
I would perfer to use a regular filter with a certain type of cartridge to save the water.
But I guess we will see.
Toni your water source?


I've never set myself up for intentional breeding with my discus (only with rams, cories, etc). But, I've had many successful discus spawns in my community tank and in a few instances when I felt like dealing with it, I've pulled the fry when they go free swimming.

So, NOT an expert on the subject, but since your water is very close to mine, maybe there are a couple of things I can add, just food for thought.

1) Your tanks look spotless, so do you actually need to add that much MB after the spawn? I've never used MB at all (pH 8.4, TDS 90-110 and in a community tank with 90% daily WC) and haven't had any fungus problems.
If you do have a lot of fungus on the eggs, then their might be something else going on in the water.

2) Have your discus been through rounds of meds? If so, I think that it can cause sterility, at least, that's what I've heard. I had a MR who produced beautiful fry over and over till illness hit my tank. After the rounds of meds he never produced fry again no matter how many times he and his mate got busy.

3) How old are your discus? Have they produced fry in the past for you? Maybe they're still young. I'm thinking that you've already verified that you have a male and female in each tank, so age might be causing this.

4) What foods are you using to condition them? Mine seem to do the best with fry when they are on a steady diet of 1 beefheart feeding, 2 flake feedings and 2 FDBW feedings per day. I use a mix of flakes including immune booster flakes, discus flakes, spirulina flakes and beefheart flakes.

Have no idea if any of this is going to be helpful, but maybe it will spark an idea and send you in a new direction to solve the problem.

[MKD]

Madmatt, how old is your ro filter? When did you replace cartridges? Did you clean/ flush it with chlorine or alcohol? If not , maybe give it a try. I had similar situation and small percent hatched rate. I took couple months break not breeding and left ro filter sit still. Thought it was ok. I did a major clean and replace filter cartridges, wolaaaaaaa.

[alcastro]

Madmatt, how old is your ro filter? When did you replace cartridges? Did you clean/ flush it with chlorine or alcohol? If not , maybe give it a try. I had similar situation and small percent hatched rate. I took couple months break not breeding and left ro filter sit still. Thought it was ok. I did a major clean and replace filter cartridges, wolaaaaaaa.
True True True, bacteria is you biggest enemie. Well though out my friend Tony

[strawberryblonde]

Toni,
Do you know the water parameters of your lake or water source?
My source is lake St.Claire in Ontario Canada.
I have researched it and I have a copy of the conservation society water parameters read out of the lake. It's pretty extensive. I would love to compare it to your water source.
One of two things are possible:
1.there in deed is a high mineral content that is not conducive to a Discus egg and larvae growth, and this mineral is disrupting the development some how.
Or
2. The method or chemicals the municipality is treating the water is not conducive for the egg and larvae development and growth.
Or
A combination or 1. & 2.
I think if its a certain mineral content I may be able to filter it out with certain types of filter cartridges, if its #2 or both I will have to bread in pure RO with added Discus mininerals.
Either way its looking more and more like using RO might be a more productive way. However with many water changes and a 4:1 water ratio there is alot of waisted water especially when we are doing lots of water changes a day. 0.o
I would perfer to use a regular filter with a certain type of cartridge to save the water.
But I guess we will see.
Toni your water source?

Hi Matt,

The only water report I can access online is the 2012 CCR for my county. I can also access a general FAQ for the wells that supply water to my home. (all of my water is supplied by ground water from lime aquifers in basalt and crystalline mountains that drain down to deep aquifers below 700 feet)

So, although my pH is high at 8.4, my calcium carbonate is between 33 mg/L and 55 mg/L, which means my water is soft. I do have some lime in my tap water that precipitates out and forms a nice little white line around the top of my tank... have to wipe it off once every few weeks.

Beyond that, the only items detected in my water are Flouride - 0.29ppm (occurs naturally - not added), Chlorine - 0.2ppm, Nitrate - 0.7ppm and Copper - 0.06ppm.

The list of Non Detected items is too long to list here, but I suppose the most important ones are TTHMS, Coliform, Radium, Diquat, Hexachlorocyclopentadiene (try saying that 3 times fast!), and Lead.

I'm not sure if this is the type of info you wanted. Let me know if there's something else and I'll see if I can scrape it up. Our county is a wee bit isolated and behind the times when it comes to publishing things on the internet. LOL

[MadMatt]

Thanks Toni, every little bit helps.
;)


Hi Matt,

The only water report I can access online is the 2012 CCR for my county. I can also access a general FAQ for the wells that supply water to my home. (all of my water is supplied by ground water from lime aquifers in basalt and crystalline mountains that drain down to deep aquifers below 700 feet)

So, although my pH is high at 8.4, my calcium carbonate is between 33 mg/L and 55 mg/L, which means my water is soft. I do have some lime in my tap water that precipitates out and forms a nice little white line around the top of my tank... have to wipe it off once every few weeks.

Beyond that, the only items detected in my water are Flouride - 0.29ppm (occurs naturally - not added), Chlorine - 0.2ppm, Nitrate - 0.7ppm and Copper - 0.06ppm.

The list of Non Detected items is too long to list here, but I suppose the most important ones are TTHMS, Coliform, Radium, Diquat, Hexachlorocyclopentadiene (try saying that 3 times fast!), and Lead.

I'm not sure if this is the type of info you wanted. Let me know if there's something else and I'll see if I can scrape it up. Our county is a wee bit isolated and behind the times when it comes to publishing things on the internet. LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's another idea for you Matt http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes&highlight=summer+unhappy.

[nc0gnet0]

WHY WHY WHY?

If this has been such a problem, do the distilled water experiment. If the eggs still fail to hatch then you have a fertility problem and not a water problem.

or

You could just keep playing with your water for another year........

And BTW, your water does have issues, otherwise you would not have a copepod issue.

[MadMatt]

You have a good point Rick, I would rather not play with my water for another year.

I called the place where I got my water filters from, they claim if I find out the mineral or chemical I need removed they can tell me what type of filter Cartridge I need to do the job besides RO DI (which I have already, besides other filter systems).

I just started using this filter system about 3 weeks ago, so I am starting to have my discus breed in new filtered water.
Looking back I think this pair above may have problems, they have been mediated and now that I think about it they aren't making anything since.... Wow!
My next spawn that happens I will do the water test, I have a bucket and pre-heated distiller water waiting.
My red covers just spawn 1 1/2 days ago, wish I had my distiller water on hand then, they have spawn before a gave me a few fry so I know there fertile, this will be a good test of the water I'm using now, if this fails I will start testing the water.


WHY WHY WHY?

If this has been such a problem, do the distilled water experiment. If the eggs still fail to hatch then you have a fertility problem and not a water problem.

or

You could just keep playing with your water for another year........

And BTW, your water does have issues, otherwise you would not have a copepod issue.

[MadMatt]

This is what I have to filter my water
89235
I started doing research on water and I was starting to think I had a water problem as well, so I installed this filter, at the same time I moved a bunch of my pairs around and they all went on leave. Then my yellow pigeons spawn again and nothing, they spawn two more times and nothing. However this was a pair I medicated for gill flukes, looking back I probably shouldn't have... I don't really know if this impacted there fertility or not, only time will tell. I have out them back in a 55g community tank, they can have a rest, I just had another fresh new pair just pair up, they have produced 3 wigglers but there batch was a lot bigger then three wigglers, this is a very low hatch rate, so I think I still may have a water problem. Mind you this is the tank that had copepods, this could have effected the hatch rate and not the water.
My red covers just spawn in one of my super clean 20g breeder tanks. This tank is vacuumed daily, wc 75-100% daily, wiped down daily.
Let's see these hatch rates, if this fails I'm doing the distillers water test.

Here's another idea for you Matt http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes&highlight=summer+unhappy.

[nc0gnet0]

What TDS are you currently running in your breeding tanks?

If you can find a tall clear cylindrical container with a sealed bottom and tall enough to rise above the water line of your tank that would be ideal. Then you fill the cylinder with distilled water, place the cone back into cylinder and then the cylinder into the tank, and the pair can still bond with the eggs/fry should they hatch, just like they would with a screen. After the eggs hatch slowly transition the water in the cylinder by using a turkey baster to add tank water to the cylinder.

[alcastro]

You can get Glass cylinders at Michael's flower vase, or at marshall's, measure your cone

[MadMatt]

Rick you are truly a master at your art, I would have never thought of something like that.
So the good news today, my red covers eggs started to hatch! Keep in mind this is the first batch where my pair was never medicated and in the new filter water. And this is the largest hatch ration I have ever had!
You guys are totally right, its a water issue.
And to think all these months of having failure and failure with my tap water mix with RO to bring down the TDS to around 40-50 but still there must have been something in the tap water that was causing the eggs to get so hard they wouldn't hatch.
My hatch ratio (with the red covers this time) is around 60-70%, not great but before it was barely 5% at best.
Now I have to figure out how to increase the hatch rate.
Thanks guys for everything, Al, Rick, Toni you guys have been a huge help in everything.
I will post pictures later today.
:)


What TDS are you currently running in your breeding tanks?

If you can find a tall clear cylindrical container with a sealed bottom and tall enough to rise above the water line of your tank that would be ideal. Then you fill the cylinder with distilled water, place the cone back into cylinder and then the cylinder into the tank, and the pair can still bond with the eggs/fry should they hatch, just like they would with a screen. After the eggs hatch slowly transition the water in the cylinder by using a turkey baster to add tank water to the cylinder.

[MadMatt]

Thanks Al,



You can get Glass cylinders at Michael's flower vase, or at marshall's, measure your cone

[MadMatt]

Hi Rick,
TDS is around 120ppm.
I could blend this new filtered water with a RO DI water, do you think this would help even more?


What TDS are you currently running in your breeding tanks?

If you can find a tall clear cylindrical container with a sealed bottom and tall enough to rise above the water line of your tank that would be ideal. Then you fill the cylinder with distilled water, place the cone back into cylinder and then the cylinder into the tank, and the pair can still bond with the eggs/fry should they hatch, just like they would with a screen. After the eggs hatch slowly transition the water in the cylinder by using a turkey baster to add tank water to the cylinder.

[MadMatt]

So here we are, by regular breeding standards this is nothing to be excited about, but for me this is amazing!!!!
After months and months of failures and water problems, I finally have a little success!
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This is the largest batch I have ever hatched, and they hatched in 2 days, before it was taking 3 days and the egg would shake and shake then a tail would pop out and then most would die half wiggled and half in the shell. This time they all hatched in two days. No doubt I was struggling with a water problem.
Next challenge: let's get the hatch rate up!
:)

[alcastro]

Congrats Matt, that's a good hatch rate don't get coughs up on getting it better trust me that's a whole different game you could have a lazy make etc. now your next challenge is if the fry attach so get ready bud.

[nc0gnet0]

I actually run my breeding tanks around a TDS of 30-40. However, before you go this low, do it gradually and learn your water.

[MadMatt]

Thanks Al,
I have had a few of my discus babies make it till 4 months and counting, but it was an embarrassing low hatch rate that was killing me. Failed spawn on going failed spawn, then 5 wigglers out of 200 plus eggs, 4 attach to parents 3 make it to 2 inch, and so on. This has been my discus experience so far. Then I had enough and I install my mega filters, this is my first successful spawn since then. The difference is incredible. I just need to figure out what's different with my water and try to improve it. I definitely changes the mineral content with my filtration, just the question what?
I would have done the "Ricks water test" if this would have failed.
Rick hit it on the head on this one! And Al your first suggestion was right on the money too "a water problem".
Thanks guys I will keep you updated on the red cover spawn, the parents are having a fun time recouping the fry back to the cone now...lol.... I love this part but this is the first for so many little ones.
Thanks again everyone!
:)


Congrats Matt, that's a good hatch rate don't get coughs up on getting it better trust me that's a whole different game you could have a lazy make etc. now your next challenge is if the fry attach so get ready bud.

[MadMatt]

For me to have such low TDS I would have to use my RO DI and blend it 80/20 with my tap water, I did it before but that's when I had no luck with the old tap water, I'm hoping to improve on the filtered tap water and improve the hatch rate that way, hopefully it's constant and life is good.
Rick have you ever heard of this before?


I actually run my breeding tanks around a TDS of 30-40. However, before you go this low, do it gradually and learn your water.

[nc0gnet0]

For me to have such low TDS I would have to use my RO DI and blend it 80/20 with my tap water, I did it before but that's when I had no luck with the old tap water, I'm hoping to improve on the filtered tap water and improve the hatch rate that way, hopefully it's constant and life is good.
Rick have you ever heard of this before?

Not that your whole house water filter is a bad investment, but I highly doubt it is having any impact at all on mineral content. It's not doing anything that a good 'ol RO filter would do on its' own. As is so often the case, you were so frustrated with low hatch rate (and rightfully so) you began throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the problem trying to address the problem. And now that the problem seems to be coming around, it's really hard to attribute just exactly what "fixed" the problem. It's why I prefer a step by step approach.

In all likelihood, from what I have read, the problem probably stems from your fish themselves. Be it a lack of proper diet, medications (some of which might have occurred before you got them) age, or any other number of things. The pair you now are having success with is your newest pair, am I correct? If so, remember that fact.

The DI stage is in my opinion a waste of money for discus. Your RO filter should output water in the 8-15 Tds range, and a bit of tap, or even RO waste water is all you need to bring the TDS up where you need it.

[MadMatt]

My wife is the one that got the RO DI filter, it was on sale at the time, as far as the other filter is goes thru 2 block carbon, 2 coconut carbon and one 1 micron setiment canister. I still have to test the tap with and with out to see what it's pulling out.
Do you know Rick what minerals aren't good with discus?


Not that your whole house water filter is a bad investment, but I highly doubt it is having any impact at all on mineral content. It's not doing anything that a good 'ol RO filter would do on its' own. As is so often the case, you were so frustrated with low hatch rate (and rightfully so) you began throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the problem trying to address the problem. And now that the problem seems to be coming around, it's really hard to attribute just exactly what "fixed" the problem. It's why I prefer a step by step approach.

In all likelihood, from what I have read, the problem probably stems from your fish themselves. Be it a lack of proper diet, medications (some of which might have occurred before you got them) age, or any other number of things. The pair you now are having success with is your newest pair, am I correct? If so, remember that fact.

The DI stage is in my opinion a waste of money for discus. Your RO filter should output water in the 8-15 Tds range, and a bit of tap, or even RO waste water is all you need to bring the TDS up where you need it.

[nc0gnet0]

the filter in the picture only has 3 stages?

I really think your worrying way to much about your water and mineral content. If it's safe to drink, it should be fine for discus. The minerals that your trying to reduce for breeding however are calcium and magnesium.

[MadMatt]

Before I run the water in a holding tank it runs thru another two stage.

Ok, let me start from the beginning of this water idea problem.
Months before i posted anything on SD I was having low low hatch rates and multiple failures.
At a aquarium society meeting I was sitting at a table with two others that attempted to breed soft water fish for two years and experienced the same thing as me, there was another person sitting at the table, he is doing his PHd at the university in aquatics and doing a study on the Great Lakes, he listen to us talk about the breeding we were attempting and he chimed in and we all had a discussion about the water source. Even he had ideas and concepts about our poor water quality and the water may have poor mineral content for what we were trying to do.
So I tried buffers and stuff that are suppose to alter the mineral content, I tried ro DI water with blended tap water in a hope to reduce the content, but again no dice.
Then I started posting things on SD and more people made refers to "the water isn't quite right", I started reading things about the hardnes of the egg being so hard the wigglers won't hatch, again more members made comments about my water.
So here we are, talking about water again.
This is why I am addressing a possible water chemistry problem.


the filter in the picture only has 3 stages?

I really think your worrying way to much about your water and mineral content. If it's safe to drink, it should be fine for discus. The minerals that your trying to reduce for breeding however are calcium and magnesium.

[MadMatt]

How does this look compared to ideal conditions?
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[nc0gnet0]

Show me the water quality report from your municipality, not that of the lake it is taken from.

BTW, have you ever glanced at my location?

[MadMatt]

Lol!... I see, is your water from the same source? Since we are on different sides of the river, these would be two different treatment plans that process the water.
Windsor Ontario is noted for having poor quality of water, very clean with lots of chlorine and ozone, but low quality.


Show me the water quality report from your municipality, not that of the lake it is taken from.

BTW, have you ever glanced at my location?

[MadMatt]

Last water change I think before the larvae try to find mommy and daddy.
89289
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[MadMatt]

Little guys are getting ready to blast off!
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[alcastro]

Good Luck double M

[MadMatt]

Hi everyone and up date!
Special thanks to:
Rick, Tonie, Al, John, Liz and many other at simply discus if I missed you!
Thanks everyone for all your help, so far we are going along great!
Almost every fry found the mom and dad and doing well, they have been attached for about 12hrs now!
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[rickztahone]

That is always an awesome sight to see

[nc0gnet0]

after you raise this batch, remember, browns make the absolute best foster pairs........

[alcastro]

I am happy to help others from what I have learned here at simply.
AL

[MadMatt]

Funny you say that, I just had a pair of pigeon melon muts spawn two days before these red covers did, the pigeons spawn in one of my comminuted tanks. Since this was the pigeons first spawn I just let everything be, I didn't cover nothing and a few tank mates eat here and there, the new pair was able to get 10 wigglers and a few did attach and free swim, by the second day only one was left. At this time the red covers larvae was almost time to free swim, I scooped up the little pigeon fry and plopped him in with the other red cover fry and business went on as usual!...lol

Look you can see in this picture the single different colour and he's two days older so he's larger as well.
Will these red cover foster parent even if they don't have any fry at all of there own?
89355


after you raise this batch, remember, browns make the absolute best foster pairs........

[Kyla]

so exciting!! and great pics! i've read about using foster parents to raise fry and its just fascinating stuff, i have lots of questions too lol, def let us know how it goes

[nc0gnet0]

while I cannot guarantee that particular pair will, many do given the right process.

[MadMatt]

Hi Rick,
Could you give a few hints on the process you do?


while I cannot guarantee that particular pair will, many do given the right process.

[nc0gnet0]

After the bad parents (or young parents) have laid the eggs, within a few hours I remove the cone and place it in the tank with the foster parents, and screen the eggs. Eventually the foster pair will bond to the eggs and wigglers and you should be good to go by the time the fry have gone free swimming.

Another option is if you are lucky enough to have both the foster pair (assuming you don't mind losing those eggs) and the problem pair (these are the eggs you care most about) spawn at roughly the same time, then you just swap cones and the fish are none the wiser. The young/problem pair gets to practice on the eggs you don't care about while the foster pair raises the other batch none-the-wiser.

[MadMatt]

Genius Rick!
U are a true master at your craft.
Not in a million years would I have thought of that.
I'm sure many other new Breeder enthusiast love these ideas!
;)


After the bad parents (or young parents) have laid the eggs, within a few hours I remove the cone and place it in the tank with the foster parents, and screen the eggs. Eventually the foster pair will bond to the eggs and wigglers and you should be good to go by the time the fry have gone free swimming.

Another option is if you are lucky enough to have both the foster pair (assuming you don't mind losing those eggs) and the problem pair (these are the eggs you care most about) spawn at roughly the same time, then you just swap cones and the fish are none the wiser. The young/problem pair gets to practice on the eggs you don't care about while the foster pair raises the other batch none-the-wiser.