New Here - Doing a fishless cycle

[jennaveere]

Hi everyone,

I have been reading tons of posts and such for the past 3 months. I have to say that there are some very informative posts. However, I have a specific question on my fishless cycle. Is it possible to see nitrates BEFORE the tank cycles? See my timeline below. If anyone can help get me on the right track, I would VERY much appreciate it. Also, my water seemed a bit brown on 7/27/2015 and today looking a little green. I am sure its because of the manzanita. I could also use some advice on that as well.

Hardware
I have the following
93 gallon cube with 80 gallons of water 30x30x24 (BB)
A 300 watt and a 150 watt heater because the 300 w only heated to 81 (I read its best to do a FL cycle at 86) feel free to correct - I don't have a hood yet which is why the 300 w isn't enough.
Canister Filter CF500-UV cycles once every 20 mins
4 airstones
lighting but I have them off for the cycle
a few manzanita branches

Here is what I have done so far.

7/23/2015
Filled the tank and turned on all hardware to ensure everything working properly
de-chlorinated the water
Let it cycle for a few days

7/25/2015
Added 15.5 ml ACE brand Ammonia - no bubbles when I shook the bottle - brought it to 4/5 ppm - PH 7.6
Added 2 pantyhose pouches of gravel, one small decoration and squeezings from the filter media from an established tank

7/26/2015
Ammonia was around 4ppm nitrite 0 and nitrate looked to be around 1ppm (could be that I read it wrong)

7/27/2015
Same reading as 7/26/2015

7/28/2015 - TODAY
Ammonia 2ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate looks around 3ppm

Thank you so much for any help!!

[alron2]

Welcome to the forum Jennifer, lots of useful information here. Since the ammonia has decreased by 50% I would have expected the nitrite to be above 0 and I can't see how the nitrate can increase from 1 to 3 without any nitrite available. I would bring my ammonia back up to 4 parts and continue to test the water daily. We should see the nitrite come up and they decrease to 0. Keep us informed.

Ron

[jennaveere]

Okay, thank you!!

[Jason.M]

Have you tested your tap water for nitrate? Its probably just from the established tank items you added. Its processing the ammonia and nitrites as fast as it can. Keep going with your cycle, you will see the ammonia start to disappear quicker and quicker over time as the colony builds and see the occasional nitrite reading, possibly without seeing a huge nitrite spike. Just watch the ammonia dosing. BB starts to slow down production at 5ppm and at 8ppm it goes on strike, hence the hanging nitrites people often encounter. 2-3ppm is the sweet spot and gets the best cycling rate.

[jennaveere]

Ok, thank you! I was wondering if the nitrate reading was from the est tank items. Nitrate from the tap was 0. I added more ammonia to bring it up to 4ppm as suggested, I will only go up to 3ppm once it drops. It seems to be dropping consistently but very slow and I still have a reading of nitrates around 3ppm ( I am retesting now). Thank you for the adding info.

Edit!! ok, so I feel stupid - I retested the tap water for nitrates and it was 2/3ppm. UGH! I guess I did it wrong when I did it the first time. It was my first time with the test kit, I should have practiced. Thank you for clearing that up!!!

[jennaveere]

I am using an API Freshwater Master Test Kit and Seneye. Both are displaying the same values for AMM and PH (Seneye only reads AMM and PH).
7/30/2015 @ 2:30pm
Amm - 4.26
PH - 8
Nitrite - 0.10
Nitrate - 2/3 ppm
Temp - 81.3

[Jason.M]

Don't forget, when using the API liquid kit to beat and shake bottle #2 of the test like it owes you money. The particles settle and are hard to get re suspended. It will give a low reading usually when not shakin enough or expired.
Edit: bottle #2 refers to the nitrate test

[jennaveere]

Thanks Jason! I beat the crap out of it. It won't steal from anybody anymore ;]

[jennaveere]

I am getting somewhere - Finally!

Yesterday I saw my nitrites spike. I have decided to wait until Septembers shipment to order from Kenny.

Today,
Amm - 2.86
PH - 7.8
Nitrite - off the charts over 5ppm
Nitrate - 5 ppm
Temp - 81

[jennaveere]

Hi guys,

I am on day 23 of the cycle. I think I am on the right track but I do have some questions.
My ammonia is cycling very quick (5ppms in about 10 to 12 hours) However, the level never reaches 0ppm. The ammonia will hover around .5 or .4 ppm for hours. It could be that I am using seneye and it won't read lower than .4 ppm. My nitrites are off the charts since 8/3/2015 and my nitrates have not come up at all. Could it be that I am dosing too much and the nitrites don't have time to catch up? (I read that somewhere on another thread)

I was wondering if this is normal or do I need to do something else? I know its a waiting game but I just don't want to mess this up after all this time.
I am attaching a pic of my readings if anyone wants to take a look. I really appreciate the help.

89187

[alron2]

Jennifer, I would give it another week and I believe you will be happy with the results. What kind of controller do you have? I really like the graphs.
Ron

[jennaveere]

Jennifer, I would give it another week and I believe you will be happy with the results. What kind of controller do you have? I really like the graphs.
Ron
I use Seneye. There are 3 different kinds (freshwater, reef and pond). I got the reef one because it measures light too in case I want to do a planted aquarium in the future.
The only sucky part is that it doesn't test for nitrites and nitrates. The temp on the seneye is about 1.5 degrees off (cooler) I did some testing. I'll keep you updated on my progress. Thanks for the help.

[alron2]

Jennifer,

Did you realize you can correct the temp reading: see url for details

http://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye_Products/sca/adjust_temp_PH_NH3#

Ron

[jennaveere]

You are awesome! I was trying to figure out what the trim was for in that section. I just didn't read about it yet. Thank you so much!!!

[jennaveere]

So I have an update and it's not very good. The Seneye product that I am using calculates NH3 not NH4 so my ammonia levels were off they charts, like it turned green/blue off the charts. The version of Seneye that I have is supposed to calc NH4 as well and I didn't realize that I didn't have that widget. Contacting customer service. I am so frustrated because I have been relying on this without using the API kit. BAD MISTAKE! Well, as soon as I realized it, I did a 85% water change and the ammonia came down to about 4/5 ppm. This was at 11:30 pm last night. Now 12 hours later, I just used the API kit and I am at 1 ppm for ammonia and 5 ppm for nitrites. No nitrates yet. I am guessing that I have been dosing my tank to the extreme every night for the last 2 to 3 weeks.

Do I need to start totally over or can I just run with what I have now and hopefully I will get a cycle?

Also, I ordered all my food and I placed an order with Ken's Fish ( a sponsor here) and the blood worm bag was shredded in the cooler. Blood worms all over the place. I emailed and called but no reply. Normally I wouldn't complain but the shipping cost more than the food did. Anyone have issues with this place?

Thanks for the help!!

[Jack L]

well....you sent me down a tangent on what seneye was, seems very cool for 200 bucks, too bad it doesn't to nitrate. once running that is all that i pay attention to.

I've never done fishless cycle

but with API test kits.

i find the colors very close to each other, i can't tell 10 from 20 on nitrate for example. but just wanted to mention the time for the color to develops matter. i actually set a 5 minute timer and check at 5 mins. it reads noticeably different on both sides of the time frame.

FYI: found this on their site if case it helps you
http://answers.seneye.com/en/Seneye_Products/seneye_USB_device/Using_a_seneye_USB_for_aquarium_cycling

[jennaveere]

Ah, sorry - I should have mentioned what Seneye was. I think it turns out to be about $10 a month for the slides.

I just took another reading, I am at Ammonia .5 ppm Nitrites 5ppm and not really any nitrates yet. I am hoping it will pick up.

[Jack L]

Ah, sorry - I should have mentioned what Seneye was. I think it turns out to be about $10 a month for the slides.

I just took another reading, I am at Ammonia .5 ppm Nitrites 5ppm and not really any nitrates yet. I am hoping it will pick up.

It was a good tangent. I was considering if until I saw the monthly slides and then that it doesn't do nitrate

If you have nitrite you will get nitrate in time. Sometimes more info is really just data

[Jack L]

in the book Aquarium week by week, there is a pretty detailed section on cycling.

i just looked at it.

the fishless cycle using ammonia and starter bacteria is 20 days.

of note for you, "days 11-15, ammonia now falls every few days, nitrite converting bacteria struggle at high ammonia levels, so half dose to 2mg/litre max. nitrite drops more rapidly causing a more dramatic increase in nitrates"

the ammonia dosing for day 1-10 was to keep it at 4-5 mg/litre in tank

[jennaveere]

in the book Aquarium week by week, there is a pretty detailed section on cycling.

i just looked at it.

the fishless cycle using ammonia and starter bacteria is 20 days.

of note for you, "days 11-15, ammonia now falls every few days, nitrite converting bacteria struggle at high ammonia levels, so half dose to 2mg/litre max. nitrite drops more rapidly causing a more dramatic increase in nitrates"

the ammonia dosing for day 1-10 was to keep it at 4-5 mg/litre in tank

Thank you, I have not added anymore ammonia and it's around .5 ppm according to my API test kit. Nitrites are still the same, pretty high at 5ppm. The thing that is really throwing me is that when I use this Seneye (sorry to keep talking about it but hopefully it will help someone in the future) I have the NH3 and NH4 readings my NH3 is .02 ppm and my NH4 is 80.29 so I have no idea what that means. I am just going by my API for now, just don't know if I should do another water change to try and get those nitrites down.

[jennaveere]

Finally I am getting NitrAtes!! I am at around 20 ppm - Holding off on anymore water changes for now to see if these ites drop on their own.

[Jack L]

Thank you, I have not added anymore ammonia and it's around .5 ppm according to my API test kit. Nitrites are still the same, pretty high at 5ppm. The thing that is really throwing me is that when I use this Seneye (sorry to keep talking about it but hopefully it will help someone in the future) I have the NH3 and NH4 readings my NH3 is .02 ppm and my NH4 is 80.29 so I have no idea what that means. I am just going by my API for now, just don't know if I should do another water change to try and get those nitrites down.

well...you sort of are watching water boil : )
the tank will cycle

i wouldn't do water change

does your seneye do BOTH NH3 and 4? i thought it only did 3

[Jack L]

Finally I am getting NitrAtes!! I am at around 20 ppm - Holding off on anymore water changes for now to see if these ites drop on their own.

good : )

the nitrites will got to 0 w/o you doing anything in not much time, couple days IME.

but honestly, in all my tank cycles, i only caught nitrites once, and it was because i cooked an expensive gold nugget plec as i thought the tank WAS cycled. when it went into twitch and die mode, i naturally got out the test kits.

[jennaveere]

Yes, it does both NH3/NH4 (I have the reef system). It's good in case I decide WAY down the road to do a planted tank. Baby steps tho! I asked the Seneye guys what the reading are supposed to be that coincide with the API test kit readings. Hopefully they will get back with me. My NitrAtes started to come up, they are around 20ppm. I am not doing anymore water changes. I think the last 2 were what I needed to get my tank to start cycling properly. I will update more tmw and I will let you know what the Seneye guys say in case you or anyone else is interested.

[jennaveere]

good : )

the nitrites will got to 0 w/o you doing anything in not much time, couple days IME.

but honestly, in all my tank cycles, i only caught nitrites once, and it was because i cooked an expensive gold nugget plec as i thought the tank WAS cycled. when it went into twitch and die mode, i naturally got out the test kits.

Oh no! Twitch and die :) Shouldn't I still be adding ammonia to keep it going?

[Jack L]

i would until you are ready for fish, then do water changes to lower nitrate and once the fish are in there they will make plently of bioload.

[Jack L]

plants seem like they should be easy, but i find a planted tank more difficult than fish only. but it is very doable if you put the time in.

[jennaveere]

i would until you are ready for fish, then do water changes to lower nitrate and once the fish are in there they will make plently of bioload.

Okay, I added to 1.5ppm - I'll see where it stands in the morning and then start maintaining around 3ppm - I have a 93 gallon and plan on putting about 6 or 7 discus.
Thanks for all the help!

[Jack L]

i'd be interested in seneye if they measured nitrate.

once your tank is going, you should never see ammonia or nitrite

[jennaveere]

Update: My ammonia is processing to 0 pretty quickly. This morning, Ammonia was 0 ppm, Nitrites are still at 5ppm or higher and my NitrAtes have been at 30 ppm for the past 2 days. There is so much conflicting information out there. I am not sure if I should wait on adding Ammonia so the Nitrites and catch up or just keep adding Ammonia to about 3 ppm. I don't want to overdose, maybe I am just suffering during the "waiting period". Any suggestions from someone who has successfully done a fishless cycle are most welcome.

[Spike Cover]

Hi,

I'm kind of new here myself but have done fishless cycling of tanks. I'm mainly a Koi guy but here is something I've found useful (I'm going to try to add an attachment that show ammonia, nitrite and nitrate vs. time). This curve is at 75F so if you're warmer, it should go quicker.

Spike

[jennaveere]

Hi,

I'm kind of new here myself but have done fishless cycling of tanks. I'm mainly a Koi guy but here is something I've found useful (I'm going to try to add an attachment that show ammonia, nitrite and nitrate vs. time). This curve is at 75F so if you're warmer, it should go quicker.

Spike

This is a great chart! I was looking for something like this. Thanks for sharing!

[Spike Cover]

This is a great chart! I was looking for something like this. Thanks for sharing!

You're very welcome. The curves came from Michael Timmons' Recirculating Aquaculture.
BTW, I've started tanks with ammonium chloride and a little fish food (the bugs need a carbon source to reproduce). I've also done it with a few fish, ClorAm-X (for ammonia neutralizing) and a little salt (to protect against nitrite poisoning). I did two tanks like this a year ago. Lots of ways to skin this cat.

[jennaveere]

You're very welcome. The curves came from Michael Timmons' Recirculating Aquaculture.
BTW, I've started tanks with ammonium chloride and a little fish food (the bugs need a carbon source to reproduce). I've also done it with a few fish, ClorAm-X (for ammonia neutralizing) and a little salt (to protect against nitrite poisoning). I did two tanks like this a year ago. Lots of ways to skin this cat.

Do you think I should add fish food? I added a little bit when i first started back at the end of July. My nitrites are starting to drop finally and my nitrates starting to climb. Today I was at amm 1ppm, nitrites, 2 ppm and nitrates 60ppm.

[Spike Cover]

Update: My ammonia is processing to 0 pretty quickly. This morning, Ammonia was 0 ppm, Nitrites are still at 5ppm or higher and my NitrAtes have been at 30 ppm for the past 2 days. There is so much conflicting information out there. I am not sure if I should wait on adding Ammonia so the Nitrites and catch up or just keep adding Ammonia to about 3 ppm. I don't want to overdose, maybe I am just suffering during the "waiting period". Any suggestions from someone who has successfully done a fishless cycle are most welcome.

It's always tough to wait. We all want to get to watching the fish.

I mentioned in another post that I've cycled tanks with fish in them. I use ClorAm-X to neutralize the ammonia while waiting for those bugs to colonize the filter, and then add a little salt to protect against nitrite poisoning while waiting for the nitrite eaters to colonize. Since your ammonia eaters seem to have shown up, you could easily add a few "tough" fish and a little salt (raise your salt level to 0.05% = 0.5 ppt or 500 ppm) and you'd likely be okay. The fish would add the ammonia (feed them), your filter would be fed and away you go. Or you could just keep adding ammonia to feed your filter bugs. Since you're getting nitrates, your cycle is definitely progressing.

Again, you could just keep on adding ammonia or drop in a few fish, a little salt and wait for the nitrites to drop. Once that happens, you're filter is cycled. A word of caution: I don't know what type of filtration you have and even tho the filter "bugs" finally get there, they haven't yet formed a good, thick, protective biofilm. So please be careful how you clean your filter. I'd recommend that if you need to rinse parts that you do it with tank water and not tap water (containing chlorine or chloramine). You need to "baby" the filter for a while until it really gets established. In my experience, that can take a year.

Spike

[jennaveere]

I have an Aquatop Canister CF500-UV. I will definitely baby my filter. Thank you for all the advice. I am learning so much everyday on here. I think I am going to let it take it's course since I am almost done. I want a discus only tank anyhow so I can wait :) I think I should be done in about a week or so since my nitrites are dropping and nitrates are rising. THANK YOU!!!

[Spike Cover]

WOW! Patience in a fish keeper. What a concept. Maybe it will catch on. Nah... <grin>

And, you're very welcome.

Spike

[jennaveere]

WOW! Patience in a fish keeper. What a concept. Maybe it will catch on. Nah... <grin>

And, you're very welcome.

Spike

Bahahahahah

[jennaveere]

I am finally cycled! Thanks all for the help! Now to maintain and get my new babies!!

[Jack L]

It's always tough to wait. We all want to get to watching the fish.

I mentioned in another post that I've cycled tanks with fish in them. I use ClorAm-X to neutralize the ammonia while waiting for those bugs to colonize the filter, and then add a little salt to protect against nitrite poisoning while waiting for the nitrite eaters to colonize. Since your ammonia eaters seem to have shown up, you could easily add a few "tough" fish and a little salt (raise your salt level to 0.05% = 0.5 ppt or 500 ppm) and you'd likely be okay. The fish would add the ammonia (feed them), your filter would be fed and away you go. Or you could just keep adding ammonia to feed your filter bugs. Since you're getting nitrates, your cycle is definitely progressing.

Again, you could just keep on adding ammonia or drop in a few fish, a little salt and wait for the nitrites to drop. Once that happens, you're filter is cycled. A word of caution: I don't know what type of filtration you have and even tho the filter "bugs" finally get there, they haven't yet formed a good, thick, protective biofilm. So please be careful how you clean your filter. I'd recommend that if you need to rinse parts that you do it with tank water and not tap water (containing chlorine or chloramine). You need to "baby" the filter for a while until it really gets established. In my experience, that can take a year.

Spike

On the topic of tough to wait ... on all the tanks I have set up I always did it with fish sometimes with starter squeezes sometimes a starter bacteria and sometimes nothing at all and what I found is the fish are ok through the cycle if you do some water changes where you have problems is if you throw a fish that has not adjusted in the middle of a cycle. I never cycle with discuss though

[Jack L]

I am finally cycled! Thanks all for the help! Now to maintain and get my new babies!!

Cool. Once its done I never got anything but nitrates in readings. At some point you will notice the smell of your filter it is almost like Moss from the mountain it's a nice earthy smell that is a good smell so when you clean your filter I always leave some of the media untouched so that I don't over clean and cause a recycle which I have done

[jennaveere]

Cool. Once its done I never got anything but nitrates in readings. At some point you will notice the smell of your filter it is almost like Moss from the mountain it's a nice earthy smell that is a good smell so when you clean your filter I always leave some of the media untouched so that I don't over clean and cause a recycle which I have done

How much ammonia did you add to keep up the bacteria until you added fish?

[Jack L]

I always used fish, the info I shared on fishless was from that book I mentioned setting up an aquarium week by week

In my experience once you are cycle you just need to make small adjustments to bioload a time, all you are doing with ammonia is simulating natural bioload

[jennaveere]

I always used fish, the info I shared on fishless was from that book I mentioned setting up an aquarium week by week

In my experience once you are cycle you just need to make small adjustments to bioload a time, all you are doing with ammonia is simulating natural bioload

Correct. Ok. Thanks for the input.