I need proof

[krislewis3]

I work with a guy who is a fish keeper (salt water) and has a 250 gallon tank with every accessory known to man. He thinks he knows it all, and probably is knowledgable, however, when I explained to him how I take care of a discus tank, he thinks I'm completely 'off my rocker'.
Of course, like most non-discus fish keepers, the idea of daily WC is not only foreign to him, but he thinks dangerous to the fish. When I told him that I've done 90% WC with no ill affects...he thinks I must be, at the least exaggerating, and at the most, totally ignorant on the subject. My explanations fall on deaf ears. I would appreciate it if some of you knowledgable persons out there would be so kind as to explain why we can do large daily WC, and why it is beneficial to the discus.. Perhaps if he hears it from an expert...he might believe it. Kris

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, in cases like this seeing is believing...or you can explain to him that discus come from the largest water change system on the planet, the Amazon river basin which has a constant influx of new water due to the rains.
Pat

[nc0gnet0]

salt water is a hole different ball game......

[DiscusOnly]

Just tell him to start a fresh water tank with some discus and use his technique. Let's see how long it last.

[DonMD]

Personally I doubt you will be able to convince him of anything. Sounds like he has his mind made up, so perhaps the best thing is just to humor him, and let him humor you. To each their own.

[MGKelly]

+ 1


Just tell him to start a fresh water tank with some discus and use his technique. Let's see how long it last.

[afriend]

I work with a guy who is a fish keeper (salt water) and has a 250 gallon tank with every accessory known to man. He thinks he knows it all, and probably is knowledgable, however, when I explained to him how I take care of a discus tank, he thinks I'm completely 'off my rocker'.
Of course, like most non-discus fish keepers, the idea of daily WC is not only foreign to him, but he thinks dangerous to the fish. When I told him that I've done 90% WC with no ill affects...he thinks I must be, at the least exaggerating, and at the most, totally ignorant on the subject. My explanations fall on deaf ears. I would appreciate it if some of you knowledgable persons out there would be so kind as to explain why we can do large daily WC, and why it is beneficial to the discus.. Perhaps if he hears it from an expert...he might believe it. Kris

Kris,

Assuming that the tank has a well established biological filter, the main reason for making large water changes is to remove dissolved organic compounds. DOCs come from two sources: uneaten food and feces. The DOCs are not harmful to the fish, however there are bacteria in every tank that feed on them and this results in other compounds that are toxic. Not only that, pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) feed on the DOCs and then multiply. This process is common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Water containing large amounts of DOCs, while appearing crystal clear, can contain more than sufficient contaminants and pathogens to stress discus.

The thing about discus is that they are easily stressed, not only by the contaminants formed by DOCs, but by changes in temperature, Ph, overcrowding, and even the pecking order established in the tank. When a fish becomes stressed, it usually becomes lethargic, stops eating, and this makes the situation worse because it becomes more susceptible to pathogens.

The immune system of the discus also plays a part in this equation. For thousands of years the immune system of the discus has evolved in water with a low Ph. Water with low Ph has not only far fewer pathogens, but also a different class of pathogens as found in water with much higher Ph. Thus when the discus becomes stressed in water that has not only a higher concentration, but also pathogens that the immune system has difficulty in overcoming, the result is usually not good for the fish.

Just because the water appears crystal clear, this is not sufficient for healthy conditions. The water must be biologically clean. Contamination by organic compounds resulting from the decomposition of food is what produces low quality water.

The above is a quote from an earlier post I made on SD. One of the responders to my post informed me that some discus come from an environment that has a higher PH. This is a respected member and I have no reason to doubt his assertion. So we probably have a mixture of fish that come from both high and low PH. Still I believe that the immune system plays a part. Younger discus generally require more water changes than adults. I suspect this results because the immune system adapts as they age.. (Just like humans do).

One thing that I would like to emphasize. The SD forum has a huge number of members with a wealth of experience, and one would be wise to follow their advice. One of the things that they generally agree upon is that large waters changes are necessary for the health of discus. My own experience convinces me that this is indeed the case.

[Woodduck]

Personally I doubt you will be able to convince him of anything. Sounds like he has his mind made up, so perhaps the best thing is just to humor him, and let him humor you. To each their own.

You got him pegged, Don

[Rudustin]

Kris,

Assuming that the tank has a well established biological filter, the main reason for making large water changes is to remove dissolved organic compounds. DOCs come from two sources: uneaten food and feces. The DOCs are not harmful to the fish, however there are bacteria in every tank that feed on them and this results in other compounds that are toxic. Not only that, pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) feed on the DOCs and then multiply. This process is common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Water containing large amounts of DOCs, while appearing crystal clear, can contain more than sufficient contaminants and pathogens to stress discus.

The thing about discus is that they are easily stressed, not only by the contaminants formed by DOCs, but by changes in temperature, Ph, overcrowding, and even the pecking order established in the tank. When a fish becomes stressed, it usually becomes lethargic, stops eating, and this makes the situation worse because it becomes more susceptible to pathogens.

The immune system of the discus also plays a part in this equation. For thousands of years the immune system of the discus has evolved in water with a low Ph. Water with low Ph has not only far fewer pathogens, but also a different class of pathogens as found in water with much higher Ph. Thus when the discus becomes stressed in water that has not only a higher concentration, but also pathogens that the immune system has difficulty in overcoming, the result is usually not good for the fish.

Just because the water appears crystal clear, this is not sufficient for healthy conditions. The water must be biologically clean. Contamination by organic compounds resulting from the decomposition of food is what produces low quality water.

The above is a quote from an earlier post I made on SD. One of the responders to my post informed me that some discus come from an environment that has a higher PH. This is a respected member and I have no reason to doubt his assertion. So we probably have a mixture of fish that come from both high and low PH. Still I believe that the immune system plays a part. Younger discus generally require more water changes than adults. I suspect this results because the immune system adapts as they age.. (Just like humans do).

One thing that I would like to emphasize. The SD forum has a huge number of members with a wealth of experience, and one would be wise to follow their advice. One of the things that they generally agree upon is that large waters changes are necessary for the health of discus. My own experience convinces me that this is indeed the case.This is a wonderful compact and educated response and thank you for that. Rufus

[afriend]

This is a wonderful compact and educated response and thank you for that. Rufus

Thank you for your kind complement.

[Rudustin]

Thank you for your kind complement. You are most welcome! I hope people will pay attention. Rufus

[krislewis3]

Thank you guys....I will print this page, and hand it to him Monday morning, when see him at work!

[Ryan]

In freshwater fish, there is no reason I can think of that clean water would hurt them so long as the parameters are not wildly different. Large, frequent water changes are commonplace not just with discus but also other large CA/SA cichlids with high bioloads and sensitivity to DOCs in water.

[DISCUS STU]

It can be impossible to graft a new idea onto a closed mind. All I can say is good luck. With know it alls there's usually very little to change their minds and usually it isn't worth the effort.

I've known salt water keepers that have tried Discus only to throw up their hands and go back to salt, Discus being much more difficult than they would have imagined.

[STHH]

The fact that you get many supportive responses to your thread just go to show that many discus hobbiest are doing very regular large water changes, and it is perfectly normal for us. Either that or we are all crazy.

Btw, the TDS for salt water is much higher than water needed for discus, and the salt water faunas have evolved to adapt to that.

[Jason.M]

Doing large frequent water changes will not hurt the fish and only benefit. By doing this your keeping your tank water very close or exactly like your source water. No parameter changes. Only the benefit of clean water which fish love. It will affect your fish of course if your not doing enough water changes and you change a large amount, there by causing osmotic shock due to large swing in the amount of dissolved solids in the water and other parameter swings. I remember when I first started in the hobby years ago people would pride themselves on having tanks with very old water and never doing water changes. We know better nowadays of course.

[krislewis3]

I showed my friend at work the posts that you guys wrote...and I feel vindicated! Even though he may not agree, at least he now knows that it's not something that I dreamed up.......thanks for your help! Kris

[Loosir]

Show him this famous video and tell him that large WC are done by all breeders everywhere because it works better then anything else to grown healthy fish!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMnPZKJWaE

[rickztahone]

Show him this famous video and tell him that large WC are done by all breeders everywhere because it works better then anything else to grown healthy fish!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMnPZKJWaE

I love when this video pops back up on Simply :)

[Loosir]

I love when this video pops back up on Simply :)

This is not the same video, It's me in my living room!! :D:D:D:D

[rickztahone]

This is not the same video, It's me in my living room!! :D:D:D:D

does your wife mind all the water over your living room? lol

[alcastro]

That place must have a pleasant aroma , lol

[krislewis3]

Wow......i cant wait to show him this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DISCUS STU]

It'll be interesting to see his reaction. They're doing about 95% water changes.