Water changes

[a.person61]

Hey guys,
How many water changes would you recommend for my 540L? Ive got a eheim pro 2600 with the output conected to a aquaone trickle filter. Tanks planted with gravel which ill slowly change to sand making it easyer to clean up then making water quality better. Its currently stocked with 4 corys, 2 bristalnose, 47 differnt tetras, 2 angles, 1 ram, 3 guramies, 6 clown loaches and soon to add 7 adult discus.
Now if i could i woukd do 50% water changes every 2 day, but theres a few probloms. 1 currently i need to use cold water from the tap so i can only change 30% which makes it drop 2 degreas, 2 it takes 2 people to take the light unit off, 3 summers comming up here in oz so water may be resticted if theres a drought and thats all i can think of.
I wont be feeding beef hart too often just as a treat.
Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Austin, when I convert 240L to gallons it is only about 64 gallons and we recommend 10 gallons per discus. With your current stocking level I would not suggest putting discus in your tank. If you dedicated your tank to just discus and with 50% WCs every other day you may be ok but at 30% things start to get dicey. Given your current situation perhaps discus are not your best choice ATM.
Pat

[MadMatt]

Hi Pat,
This person said 540L not 240L
That's 120Gallon.

Welcome "a-person61",
Never the less Pat is 100% correct your tank would be way way over stocked.
10g per Discus [in a 120g tank]=12 full grown (or close to it) Discus.
You want to do 7 Discus, And this is possible with 40-50% wc daily.
Regarding your set up, you need to plumb an affair so you simply turn a tap on and it fills while you siphon out on the other side.
This is what me and my wife did with our 120g and we will never return to buckets.
Discus need unbelievably clean water, forget about anything you think you know about clean water.... These guys need clean clean ultra clean water.
You might get away with 30% every other day for 2-3 months, but soon after you will find a Discus in the back corner not eating soon another will follow and then another. You will say to your self "*** is going on, the water is clean, I do 30% wc 4 times a week and the water is so clean and clear".
However, toxins are building in the tank (but you can't see it) and the fish are suffering with the worst hangover ever!!!. If this continues they will get illnesses and eventually get so sick from not eating they will kick off and go see the great Discus master in the sky.
I would suggest this:
1.listen to every Discus breeders and owner here on SD, you NEED to change your water almost daily! (You can cheat from time to time but eventually if you can't be regular they will get sick sooner or later).
2.For the sake of healthy Discus do not over stock your tank. (Nothing is worse then buying a $200 discus, getting attached to it, feeding it everyday and developing a relationship with the fish, it knows you, you can even train them to be held, then because you over stocked the tank it gets sick).
3.You need stable ph so watch your ph swings, if it swings more then .4 you need to age water or they will get stressed and get ill.
4.if you can't commit to a healthy regiment for your fish get something less labor intensive like Africa cichlids, where they are quite happy at 2 wc a week.
5.if your going to have a large tank plumb for your water changes so its simple and easy, so you enjoy changing water like so many of us do! :)

Best of luck we are here to help!
:)


Hi Austin, when I convert 240L to gallons it is only about 64 gallons and we recommend 10 gallons per discus. With your current stocking level I would not suggest putting discus in your tank. If you dedicated your tank to just discus and with 50% WCs every other day you may be ok but at 30% things start to get dicey. Given your current situation perhaps discus are not your best choice ATM.
Pat

[a.person61]

I have a spare 3 foot which ill move some fish into, i do agree its a little stocked. Ill start to age my water as soon as I get the discus.
Which fish would you guys personally move to the 3 foot? Im thinking the loaches guramies and 14 tetras. Could i get away with 40 % every 2nd day with a 50% at the end of each week?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Matt, darn coffee hadn't taken effect.

Sorry Austin for my mistake on your water volume so lets try this again. Your current bio-load with seven discus should be fine. I would suggest moving the clown loaches to a different tank. They get big, are busy fish and can out compete your discus for food. I think your plan on removing the gravel and replacing with sand is a good idea. I would suggest 1/2 inch depth. I would do as many water changes as you can manage. Can you manage a good sized water tank with pump and vinyl tubing to help fill the tank? This would allow you to age and heat your water.
Pat

[a.person61]

I can get a plastic bin maybe 100 to 200L im not sure, and a cheap pump. I will move the loaches along with some others as soon as the discus pass quarantine. Like i said above would 40% every 2nd day be good enough? I could maybe do 50% depending on the size of plastic bin i can find. Just to add on how long would it take a discus to pepper? I don't wont to change the gravel to quickly and upset the good bacteria in it.

Its ok pat we all make mistakes!

[Second Hand Pat]

Austin, I would replace the gravel with sand before adding discus. You will be amazed on how much junk your gravel will have. The only discus which pepper is PB.
Pat

[a.person61]

Really? Ive see red melons and some others not sure what they are looking pepperd on another group

[strawberryblonde]

PB, or pigeon blood, refers to any discus where the black barring has been bred out of them. So there are red melons, marlboro reds, snakeskin pigeons, and on and on. Many many names for them and they come with various colors and markings.

The problem with pigeons is that even though the black bars are gone, some of the black pigmentation still remains in the fish and it can show up as small black dots here, there and anywhere on the fish - especially when they are stressed or trying to blend in with darker colors in the tank.

To avoid that problem, you can purchase non-pigeon based discus. There are MANY beautiful strains of non-pigeon discus! They will show the black barring sometimes, but no peppering.

If you do buy pigeon blood strains be sure to purchase them from a reputable breeder/importer and look them over carefully before you buy. You want very round discus with small eyes and little to no peppering.

You can also reduce the potential for the peppering in your tank by using white sand for your substrate and a light colored background.

To answer the rest of your first post, if you plan to purchase adult discus (6" or larger and over 18 months old) then you can probably get away with water changes every other day, though you will want to do large water changes - as large as possible. You can always heat and aerate the water in a barrel (many use the large brute trash cans) between water changes.

If you purchase sub-adult discus (4" - 5" in size) then you'll need to do daily water changes till they are fully grown. You can still use the aging barrels. Find room for two of them and that way you'll always have enough heated and aerated water.

And yes, please do remove the clown loaches!

Don't forget to QT your discus before adding them to the tank. You can read up on proper QT procedures on this forum.

[nc0gnet0]

PB, or pigeon blood, refers to any discus where the black barring has been bred out of them.

Not exactly........

Pigeon blood Discus all carry the dominant mutated pigeon blood gene(s). The first pigeon bloods were indeed highly peppered, but successive line breeding has allowed them to exist pepper free. The cleaner the fish, the higher the quality. This specific mutation displaced the melanin (black pigment) normally located in the barring region of the discus, and scattered it all over the fish. Subsequent line breeding has all but elimated this pepper. In the process, a wider range of colors (particularly orange/yellow/red) was then allowed to be refined.

However, not all bar-less fish are pigeon bloods.

Golden based, albino's, and Snow Whites are all bar-less fish, and do not necessarily have the pigeon blood gene,

HTH
Rick

[DonInLA]

Hey guys,

Just as a point of comparison, I have a 75Gal tank with 7 full-grown Discus. I do a 50% water change and debris suction EVERY TWO WEEKS, and at that time also clean the front to remove a bit of green algae. The fish are and have always been absolutely healthy and happy, and the water is clear and clean. Nitrates stay around 5ppm, phosphates and other parameters are fine. Here are the particulars:

- 7 full-grown discus
- 5 dwarf pleco algae eaters
- 5 large Nerite snails
- 4 x 40w T5 bulbs
- 2 Eheim cannister filters
- 1 Nitrate filter (Aqua Medic NR Blue)
- UV sterilizer in series with one of the Eheims
- inline Heater in series with the other Eheim
- CO2 system with home-made inline infuser
- Ph is kept around 7.5 (controlled by CO2 controller)
- fertilize weekly with Flourish at standard dose
- water temp kept around 84.5F
- gravel with substrate
- tanks is heavily planted with Java Fern, Swords, various Crypts
- fish are fed with frozen bloodworms and freeze-dried blackworms (the latter out of an auto-feeder)
- water changes are done directly from the tap with the addition of Prime. tank is close enough to a toilet that i can siphon directly, no buckets :-).
- the whole tank is managed by a Raspberry Pi that controls the lights, filter, dry food feeder, Nitrate filter ORP level, Nitrate filter sugar injection, etc. I wrote the control system (i'm a software engineer by day :-)). It sends me an email if anything is out of limits...

The only thing i'm struggling with is an occasional outbreak of blue-green slime algae (aka cyanobacteria) in the front right corner of the tank. Have been playing with lighting, CO2 level, and nutrients to reduce this.

Obviously, I'm not attempting to breed the fish, though there is a mated pair in the tank who occasionally lay eggs on a sword leaf. They don't last more than a few hours but it does make for a bit of drama. I have another 75Gal that i may eventually use to try to breed one of the pairs in, if i every retire and have the time - in this case, I'll probably use pretty much a bare tank.

Don
89016
89017




Hi Pat,
This person said 540L not 240L
That's 120Gallon.

Welcome "a-person61",
Never the less Pat is 100% correct your tank would be way way over stocked.
10g per Discus [in a 120g tank]=12 full grown (or close to it) Discus.
You want to do 7 Discus, And this is possible with 40-50% wc daily.
Regarding your set up, you need to plumb an affair so you simply turn a tap on and it fills while you siphon out on the other side.
This is what me and my wife did with our 120g and we will never return to buckets.
Discus need unbelievably clean water, forget about anything you think you know about clean water.... These guys need clean clean ultra clean water.
You might get away with 30% every other day for 2-3 months, but soon after you will find a Discus in the back corner not eating soon another will follow and then another. You will say to your self "*** is going on, the water is clean, I do 30% wc 4 times a week and the water is so clean and clear".
However, toxins are building in the tank (but you can't see it) and the fish are suffering with the worst hangover ever!!!. If this continues they will get illnesses and eventually get so sick from not eating they will kick off and go see the great Discus master in the sky.
I would suggest this:
1.listen to every Discus breeders and owner here on SD, you NEED to change your water almost daily! (You can cheat from time to time but eventually if you can't be regular they will get sick sooner or later).
2.For the sake of healthy Discus do not over stock your tank. (Nothing is worse then buying a $200 discus, getting attached to it, feeding it everyday and developing a relationship with the fish, it knows you, you can even train them to be held, then because you over stocked the tank it gets sick).
3.You need stable ph so watch your ph swings, if it swings more then .4 you need to age water or they will get stressed and get ill.
4.if you can't commit to a healthy regiment for your fish get something less labor intensive like Africa cichlids, where they are quite happy at 2 wc a week.
5.if your going to have a large tank plumb for your water changes so its simple and easy, so you enjoy changing water like so many of us do! :)

Best of luck we are here to help!
:)

[strawberryblonde]

Not exactly........

Pigeon blood Discus all carry the dominant mutated pigeon blood gene(s). The first pigeon bloods were indeed highly peppered, but successive line breeding has allowed them to exist pepper free. The cleaner the fish, the higher the quality. This specific mutation displaced the melanin (black pigment) normally located in the barring region of the discus, and scattered it all over the fish. Subsequent line breeding has all but elimated this pepper. In the process, a wider range of colors (particularly orange/yellow/red) was then allowed to be refined.

However, not all bar-less fish are pigeon bloods.

Golden based, albino's, and Snow Whites are all bar-less fish, and do not necessarily have the pigeon blood gene,

HTH
Rick

So true, thanks Rick! I clearly wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that, huh? LOL

So yep, there are a few non pigeon based discus without bars.

[a.person61]

So 50% wc on Tuesday Thursday Saterday with debri pickup everyday or 2nd day. And as for ferts should i just put 10 ppm ect in the new water everywater change?

[MadMatt]

To reduce "cyanobacteria" in the corner of your tank, maybe try putting a power head in that direction to cause more water movement there, cyanobacteria tends grow more where water has less flow.

[MadMatt]

Wish I could see the attachment.
:(

[MadMatt]

Why can't you use heated water?
You have all this set up, all great gear and you can't use a little hot water to make it the same temp as the tank?
Is there any logic in this???
Come on man!!! Get some hot water together!...lol


Hey guys,
How many water changes would you recommend for my 540L? Ive got a eheim pro 2600 with the output conected to a aquaone trickle filter. Tanks planted with gravel which ill slowly change to sand making it easyer to clean up then making water quality better. Its currently stocked with 4 corys, 2 bristalnose, 47 differnt tetras, 2 angles, 1 ram, 3 guramies, 6 clown loaches and soon to add 7 adult discus.
Now if i could i woukd do 50% water changes every 2 day, but theres a few probloms. 1 currently i need to use cold water from the tap so i can only change 30% which makes it drop 2 degreas, 2 it takes 2 people to take the light unit off, 3 summers comming up here in oz so water may be resticted if theres a drought and thats all i can think of.
I wont be feeding beef hart too often just as a treat.
Thanks

[Blademan]

[QUOTE=DonInLA;1168467]Hey guys,

Just as a point of comparison, I have a 75Gal tank with 7 full-grown Discus. I do a 50% water change and debris suction EVERY TWO WEEKS, and at that time also clean the front to remove a bit of green algae. The fish are and have always been absolutely healthy and happy, and the water is clear and clean. Nitrates stay around 5ppm, phosphates and other parameters are fine. Here are the particulars:

- 7 full-grown discus
- 5 dwarf pleco algae eaters
- 5 large Nerite snails
- 4 x 40w T5 bulbs
- 2 Eheim cannister filters
- 1 Nitrate filter (Aqua Medic NR Blue)
- UV sterilizer in series with one of the Eheims
- inline Heater in series with the other Eheim
- CO2 system with home-made inline infuser
- Ph is kept around 7.5 (controlled by CO2 controller)
- fertilize weekly with Flourish at standard dose
- water temp kept around 84.5F
- gravel with substrate
- tanks is heavily planted with Java Fern, Swords, various Crypts
- fish are fed with frozen bloodworms and freeze-dried blackworms (the latter out of an auto-feeder)
- water changes are done directly from the tap with the addition of Prime. tank is close enough to a toilet that i can siphon directly, no buckets :-).
- the whole tank is managed by a Raspberry Pi that controls the lights, filter, dry food feeder, Nitrate filter ORP level, Nitrate filter sugar injection, etc. I wrote the control system (i'm a software engineer by day :-)). It sends me an email if anything is out of limits...

The only thing i'm struggling with is an occasional outbreak of blue-green slime algae (aka cyanobacteria) in the front right corner of the tank. Have been playing with lighting, CO2 level, and nutrients to reduce this.

Obviously, I'm not attempting to breed the fish, though there is a mated pair in the tank who occasionally lay eggs on a sword leaf. They don't last more than a few hours but it does make for a bit of drama. I have another 75Gal that i may eventually use to try to breed one of the pairs in, if i every retire and have the time - in this case, I'll probably use pretty much a bare tank.

Don

Hi Don Wonder if I could ask how long have you had the tank and discus set up. and how big are the 7 full grown discus you are keeping

Thanks
Terry

[a.person61]

Why can't you use heated water?
You have all this set up, all great gear and you can't use a little hot water to make it the same temp as the tank?
Is there any logic in this???
Come on man!!! Get some hot water together!...lol

The heated water i have is really cloudy and probably full of gas, im not sure. When i put a drop of water condition in it fizzes. Soo i don't trust it-not even to drink

[MadMatt]

Sounds like alot of micro-Bubbles in it, try putting it in a 5g bucket with an air stone for 30mins and see what happens, if it clears up then you know what it is, if not I would consider looking at my houses plumbing and changing things to rid myself of whatever it is.
1.if you don't trust it for your fish then why would you (and your family) want to touch the water.
2.if its not safe for your fish, why would you want to bath/shower in it?
FYI:a 15 shower is the equivalent to ingesting 1gallon of the water. (This is done by absorbing thru skin, skelp, eyes and breathing in the steam.)
IMO: if the water isn't safe for your fish then its not safe for you.

I change my entire house over to a large filter system, I didn't trust my water either. On a side note I would get headaches 3-5 times a week for no reason, I'm a pretty healthy person, I'm fit and very active, my family eats a very healthy diet, there is no reason for me to ever be sick.
After install our house filter system its been almost 3 weeks now, I have only got 1 headache and that was in the first week, the last two weeks I have been headache free. This hasn't happened in over 6 years.
I'm starting to think our municiple tap water is progressively getting more and more unhealthy and we are basically poisening ourselves and our fish, I'm starting to believe there are so much chlorine, Ozone and other chemicals in our water, mere prime, seachem safe or any other products are not making it much better. If it less toxic?... (Possibly), however adding more chemcials to "an already chemical riddled water" probably isn't the best on our aquatic pets.
Take my comment for what it's worth but when you start to think (how much) we are exposed to water most of the time, it only makes sense to have very healthy clean water for us and our precious Discus.
:)


The heated water i have is really cloudy and probably full of gas, im not sure. When i put a drop of water condition in it fizzes. Soo i don't trust it-not even to drink

[a.person61]

Yea will do, it only happened recently. I don't think it's micro bubbles, when i put my hand in there it's like it's bad a handfull of dust droped in it. Hopefully im wrong

[Hart24601]

Sounds like alot of micro-Bubbles in it, try putting it in a 5g bucket with an air stone for 30mins and see what happens, if it clears up then you know what it is, if not I would consider looking at my houses plumbing and changing things to rid myself of whatever it is.
1.if you don't trust it for your fish then why would you (and your family) want to touch the water.
2.if its not safe for your fish, why would you want to bath/shower in it?
FYI:a 15 shower is the equivalent to ingesting 1gallon of the water. (This is done by absorbing thru skin, skelp, eyes and breathing in the steam.)
IMO: if the water isn't safe for your fish then its not safe for you.

I change my entire house over to a large filter system, I didn't trust my water either. On a side note I would get headaches 3-5 times a week for no reason, I'm a pretty healthy person, I'm fit and very active, my family eats a very healthy diet, there is no reason for me to ever be sick.
After install our house filter system its been almost 3 weeks now, I have only got 1 headache and that was in the first week, the last two weeks I have been headache free. This hasn't happened in over 6 years.
I'm starting to think our municiple tap water is progressively getting more and more unhealthy and we are basically poisening ourselves and our fish, I'm starting to believe there are so much chlorine, Ozone and other chemicals in our water, mere prime, seachem safe or any other products are not making it much better. If it less toxic?... (Possibly), however adding more chemcials to "an already chemical riddled water" probably isn't the best on our aquatic pets.
Take my comment for what it's worth but when you start to think (how much) we are exposed to water most of the time, it only makes sense to have very healthy clean water for us and our precious Discus.
:)

While a bit OT, I don't think our skin really absorbs much water. The outer layer does, but that doesn't penetrate beyond the skin and absorb enough to add much weight. If we absorbed a gallon of water we would weigh 8.3lb more than when we went in - probably more than that if you consider wet hair adding to the weight.

[strawberryblonde]

Hey guys,

Just as a point of comparison, I have a 75Gal tank with 7 full-grown Discus. I do a 50% water change and debris suction EVERY TWO WEEKS, and at that time also clean the front to remove a bit of green algae. The fish are and have always been absolutely healthy and happy, and the water is clear and clean. Nitrates stay around 5ppm, phosphates and other parameters are fine. Here are the particulars:

- 7 full-grown discus
- 5 dwarf pleco algae eaters
- 5 large Nerite snails
- 4 x 40w T5 bulbs
- 2 Eheim cannister filters
- 1 Nitrate filter (Aqua Medic NR Blue)
- UV sterilizer in series with one of the Eheims
- inline Heater in series with the other Eheim
- CO2 system with home-made inline infuser
- Ph is kept around 7.5 (controlled by CO2 controller)
- fertilize weekly with Flourish at standard dose
- water temp kept around 84.5F
- gravel with substrate
- tanks is heavily planted with Java Fern, Swords, various Crypts
- fish are fed with frozen bloodworms and freeze-dried blackworms (the latter out of an auto-feeder)
- water changes are done directly from the tap with the addition of Prime. tank is close enough to a toilet that i can siphon directly, no buckets :-).
- the whole tank is managed by a Raspberry Pi that controls the lights, filter, dry food feeder, Nitrate filter ORP level, Nitrate filter sugar injection, etc. I wrote the control system (i'm a software engineer by day :-)). It sends me an email if anything is out of limits...

The only thing i'm struggling with is an occasional outbreak of blue-green slime algae (aka cyanobacteria) in the front right corner of the tank. Have been playing with lighting, CO2 level, and nutrients to reduce this.

Obviously, I'm not attempting to breed the fish, though there is a mated pair in the tank who occasionally lay eggs on a sword leaf. They don't last more than a few hours but it does make for a bit of drama. I have another 75Gal that i may eventually use to try to breed one of the pairs in, if i every retire and have the time - in this case, I'll probably use pretty much a bare tank.

Don


Hi Don Wonder if I could ask how long have you had the tank and discus set up. and how big are the 7 full grown discus you are keeping

Thanks
Terry

At a guess, considering it's only a 75 gallon tank, I'd say his largest discus is no more than 5". They also appear to be stunted. The colors of the discus are off as well, but that may just be due to the camera itself. They might be full colored, sleek and glossy in person. Just not in the picture.

[a.person61]

Someone still hasn't giving me a yes or no answer. Is 40% water change every Tuesday Thursday and a 50% or larger on saterday with a debri pickup every water change or everyday be ok with my stock? I would like my discus to be healthy and grow to the size of a dinner plate even if thats not possible, ill try. I'll make sure i get adults to start with. If it helps my ph is always around 7.5 to 7.8 and ill feed protein based food but not home made.
Thanks in advancd ☺

[strawberryblonde]

Yes, so long as they are adults you can probably get away with that level of water changes. And the food sounds good to me, it doesn't have to be homemade to be good for them.

Be sure to be good quality adults. You can check out this thread to find out what not to buy: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46982-What-not-to-buy

Basically, look for brightness of colors, even patterns, adults should be at least 6" with small eyes compared to body size and the body should be round, not football shaped.

Try your water change schedule and if you find that your discus start to look "off", as in they darken, show stress bars most of the time, get picky about eating or hide in the back of the tank then you'll want to up the water changes or the amount you change every other day. The only way to know what will keep them healthy is to try it and then make adjustments if you need to.

Oh and yep, there are some who get nearly as big as dinner plates! I've owned some and there is a thread somewhere on here with pics of others who have owned them.

[a.person61]

Thanks toni.
how much would a dinner plate discus be worth? Just out of curiosity.

[MadMatt]

I'm assuming your taking about a 7" jumbo Discus.
I would suggest they are in the $150-$300 range depending on color, type and quality.


Thanks toni.
how much would a dinner plate discus be worth? Just out of curiosity.

[strawberryblonde]

Matt is right about the price of a jumbo discus. They vary, depending on who you buy from, actual size and quality of the discus (strain type can also affect price).

For my nearly dinner plate sized discus I can only tell you what I was offered in the past.

The highest offer I had for my 9" Marlboro Red was $1000.00. No WAY I was going to sell him though! It took me 2 years of daily water changes, tons of feedings and lots of care to grow him to that size.

I was offered up to $700 each for my other 5 jumbo's. The smallest was 8" and the largest was 8.5". Had one super huge flachen male who was very pretty but had a football shape, so no one ever offered me money for him. LOL

I currently have a "golden sunshine" discus (he doesn't display the colors and markings of a true golden sunshine - guess he's some sort of throwback) who is gorgeous and 8", but again, he's not for sale, though I've been offered plenty of money for him.

And in retrospect, I probably should have taken the money and run, because a few months later I brought in a bad virus with a new group of discus and cross contaminated my jumbo tank. It wiped out the entire tank except for one discus - the Marlboro Red. :(

89053

That's my Marlboro at 9". The tank is a 30g tall (18" high) He was chilling in a tank of his own for a weekend. LOL

[MadMatt]

Toni,
That's crazy and so sad!
I can't believe that such a large discus at maturity would get so sick, breaks my heart just to hear!
I have a tank of juvi altums, I'm growing out, I've been doing large daily water changes for months and it feels like no end in sight!..lol
They are growing noticeable weekly, I had no idea a Discus could get 9" .... That's insane!... I have a new goal now... Has an altum ever gotten that big? Is it possible?


Matt is right about the price of a jumbo discus. They vary, depending on who you buy from, actual size and quality of the discus (strain type can also affect price).

For my nearly dinner plate sized discus I can only tell you what I was offered in the past.

The highest offer I had for my 9" Marlboro Red was $1000.00. No WAY I was going to sell him though! It took me 2 years of daily water changes, tons of feedings and lots of care to grow him to that size.

I was offered up to $700 each for my other 5 jumbo's. The smallest was 8" and the largest was 8.5". Had one super huge flachen male who was very pretty but had a football shape, so no one ever offered me money for him. LOL

I currently have a "golden sunshine" discus (he doesn't display the colors and markings of a true golden sunshine - guess he's some sort of throwback) who is gorgeous and 8", but again, he's not for sale, though I've been offered plenty of money for him.

And in retrospect, I probably should have taken the money and run, because a few months later I brought in a bad virus with a new group of discus and cross contaminated my jumbo tank. It wiped out the entire tank except for one discus - the Marlboro Red. :(

89053

That's my Marlboro at 9". The tank is a 30g tall (18" high) He was chilling in a tank of his own for a weekend. LOL