New tank, new filtration questions...

[GrayLadyPat]

Ok, so, after all this time, I've decided to expand my disus capabilities.

In my original tank, I am using dual cannisters and it works just fine, however, I have some questions.

I am looking at a 120galUS and I am not sure that a cannister is the way to go, but I have literally never had a sump or refugium. How do they work? how do you keep from having water all over your floors if the power goes out? What's involved in setting one up?

Or, should I stay with a cannister or HOB? Or are sponges sufficient?

Right now, untl I get more information I am looking at sticking with what I know, which is a nice cannister setup. I'm just not sure tha's the best way to go with tanks above 75g

[rickztahone]

Well, I will start off by saying that I successfully ran a 125g with 2 Rena XP3's with inline heaters with absolutely no problems. However, if you stick a sump under a huge 120g stand, then you definitely get a lot of options as to what you can stick in there.

As far as the sumps are concerned, here are a few links that may help you along the way:

- http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/saltwater-aquarium-equipment/understanding-sumps-15943/
- http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/
- http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/gt/index.php
- http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/faq.php?faq=sump_articles
- http://www.dursostandpipes.com/make-your-own-durso-standpipe
- http://gmacreef.com/return-line-plumbing-reef-aquarium-sump/
- http://www.reefs.com/blog/2013/02/18/aquarium-plumbing-guide-part-i-basics-of-pvctubing/
- http://gmacreef.com/reef-aquarium-sump-tank-design/


The following are the two dominating overflow systems in the reefing community:
- http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/
This is the Herbie Overflow

- http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx
And the Bean Animal overflow.

I actually chose to go with the Bean Animal overflow but with an external overflow box.

Here are some additional reading materials for Bean Animal:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y38tFbCwfhc&feature=youtu.be
I found this to be the best youtube video about the Bean Animal setup
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY
Another video showing the power loss test. It is almost impossible to flood with this setup.
- http://www.glassreef.com/basics_overflow.php
Great article on BA with external box
- http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20727935&postcount=5070
Hole placement

I have a lot more, but that should hold you over for a while :). That is months upon months of research there. Let me know if you have questions.

Also, if you would like to check out my build thread, I did everything from scratch (DIY). I had never done a sump before or an overflow, but I love it now.

Check it out here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120637-75g-and-40g-sump-finally-done!-Bean-Animal-overflow

and here is the build thread:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117743-75g-Acrylic-tank-w-40g-sump-(Journal-build-thread)

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Pat,

Rick has compiled lots of awesome info for you! (Rick, you ARE awesome!!)

Then again, if you're like me the whole sump idea can be confusing and overwhelming, so I'll just give you my very basic stuff that I learned when I set mine up. And then you can get into all the deeper info and not be scared of it. =)

1) How to keep a sump from overflowing onto the floor: You add a tiny air hole to the spray bar that takes water from the sump to the tank. I located mine 1/2" below the surface of the water in the tank. That way, if the power ever shuts off, the water from the tank will only continue to fill the sump till it reaches that air hole. At that point the incoming air breaks the siphon and stops the draining process.

2) I only filled my sump to the 3/4 point so that there was plenty of room for overflow should the power go off. With the air hole at 1/2" under the surface it never came even close to filling the sump to the top when I shut off the power.

3) If you use the standard overflow box that you hang onto the tank then once you prime it, it will keep it's prime even when the power if off. So to get things going again all you have to do is turn on the power to the pump that's in your sump and when the water level in the tank rises enough to spill over into the overflow box, the whole system starts up again automatically. No need to prime it again and again! (You prime it by sucking all the air out of the U-tube that goes from front to back in the overflow box)

4) I looked at tons of ideas and sump setups for filter media and ended up choosing to go with Poret Foam sheets from Swiss Tropicals. They have an easy to understand diagram on their site and I followed that. I started out using 4 sheets of 30ppm 2" foam as "dividers" in the sump. These are the guys that hold all the beneficial bacteria. The pump and my heater were at one end and at the other end I used 1 3" sheet of 10ppm Poret Foam as a detrisus/mechanical filter pad.
So basically I just cut the Poret foam sheets to fit snugly inside my sump and then placed them evenly spaced throughout the length of the sump, like dividers. The mechanical one first, then all the rest evenly spaced, leaving 12" of space for the heater and pump at the other end.

5) Eventually I figured out that I didn't actually need that much foam so I yanked one out, cut it up and used it for other things.

6) With Poret Foam you don't need to clean it constantly. I washed my mechanical piece once a month by taking it outside, banging it against a wall to remove most of the big stuff and then hosing it off. The rest of the pieces only need to be banged and rinsed once a year.

7) I started out with micron socks over the tube ends that run into the sump, but that was noisy, so I experimented and ended up sticking them straight into the water and allowed that mechanical pad to do the work for me. I also added a high fin catfish to that area of the sump and he lived quite happily in there, eating all the excess food that dropped down through the overflow. He got nice and big too and since he doesn't need light to survive, we were both very happy. LOL

Things I learned along the way:

1) If you are getting an air pocket in the U-Tube in your overflow box you don't have a large enough pump.

2) To compensate for that you can either reduce the size of the U-Tube or buy a slightly larger pump. I ended up buying a pump with the capability of adjusting flow. I found a happy point when adjusting so that the levels in the sump and tank remained steady and there wasn't anymore air getting into the U-Tube. I believe that some DIY'ers make their own adjustment valve for their pumps, but I'm not a mechanically inclined person so I opted to pay a little more for one that came with the adjustment knob.

3) If you're feeding a food that doesn't sink immediately, you'll want to shut off the sump for a few minutes while it sinks or while your discus are eating from the surface - otherwise you lose a ton of food in the overflow.

4) There are lots of ways to reduce noise. It's really not all that noisy, but definitely more noisy than a canister system (gurgling noises). I used some of that spare poret foam and cut blocks to fit in the area of the overflow box where the water drains into the tubing (on the back of the overflow box). I learned that there was an even greater advantage to them as mechanical food catchers and made them even wider when my catfish was moved to another tank! From then on all I had to do was rinse them in tap water when I did water changes - just like a pre-filter on an intake tube. So they made my sump nice and quiet AND kept it cleaner!!

Now that I know how a sump works and how to set one up, I'm really interested in the bean animal style of overflow. It's pretty darned awesome and I'd love to try it - if I had a drilled tank, time, money and skill. Oh and I'm only going to have my tank for another 18 months so it doesn't make sense to change everything at this point - humph!!

[rickztahone]

Hi Pat,

Rick has compiled lots of awesome info for you! (Rick, you ARE awesome!!)

Then again, if you're like me the whole sump idea can be confusing and overwhelming, so I'll just give you my very basic stuff that I learned when I set mine up. And then you can get into all the deeper info and not be scared of it. =)

1) How to keep a sump from overflowing onto the floor: You add a tiny air hole to the spray bar that takes water from the sump to the tank. I located mine 1/2" below the surface of the water in the tank. That way, if the power ever shuts off, the water from the tank will only continue to fill the sump till it reaches that air hole. At that point the incoming air breaks the siphon and stops the draining process.

2) I only filled my sump to the 3/4 point so that there was plenty of room for overflow should the power go off. With the air hole at 1/2" under the surface it never came even close to filling the sump to the top when I shut off the power.

3) If you use the standard overflow box that you hang onto the tank then once you prime it, it will keep it's prime even when the power if off. So to get things going again all you have to do is turn on the power to the pump that's in your sump and when the water level in the tank rises enough to spill over into the overflow box, the whole system starts up again automatically. No need to prime it again and again! (You prime it by sucking all the air out of the U-tube that goes from front to back in the overflow box)

4) I looked at tons of ideas and sump setups for filter media and ended up choosing to go with Poret Foam sheets from Swiss Tropicals. They have an easy to understand diagram on their site and I followed that. I started out using 4 sheets of 30ppm 2" foam as "dividers" in the sump. These are the guys that hold all the beneficial bacteria. The pump and my heater were at one end and at the other end I used 1 3" sheet of 10ppm Poret Foam as a detrisus/mechanical filter pad.
So basically I just cut the Poret foam sheets to fit snugly inside my sump and then placed them evenly spaced throughout the length of the sump, like dividers. The mechanical one first, then all the rest evenly spaced, leaving 12" of space for the heater and pump at the other end.

5) Eventually I figured out that I didn't actually need that much foam so I yanked one out, cut it up and used it for other things.

6) With Poret Foam you don't need to clean it constantly. I washed my mechanical piece once a month by taking it outside, banging it against a wall to remove most of the big stuff and then hosing it off. The rest of the pieces only need to be banged and rinsed once a year.

7) I started out with micron socks over the tube ends that run into the sump, but that was noisy, so I experimented and ended up sticking them straight into the water and allowed that mechanical pad to do the work for me. I also added a high fin catfish to that area of the sump and he lived quite happily in there, eating all the excess food that dropped down through the overflow. He got nice and big too and since he doesn't need light to survive, we were both very happy. LOL

Things I learned along the way:

1) If you are getting an air pocket in the U-Tube in your overflow box you don't have a large enough pump.

2) To compensate for that you can either reduce the size of the U-Tube or buy a slightly larger pump. I ended up buying a pump with the capability of adjusting flow. I found a happy point when adjusting so that the levels in the sump and tank remained steady and there wasn't anymore air getting into the U-Tube. I believe that some DIY'ers make their own adjustment valve for their pumps, but I'm not a mechanically inclined person so I opted to pay a little more for one that came with the adjustment knob.

3) If you're feeding a food that doesn't sink immediately, you'll want to shut off the sump for a few minutes while it sinks or while your discus are eating from the surface - otherwise you lose a ton of food in the overflow.

4) There are lots of ways to reduce noise. It's really not all that noisy, but definitely more noisy than a canister system (gurgling noises). I used some of that spare poret foam and cut blocks to fit in the area of the overflow box where the water drains into the tubing (on the back of the overflow box). I learned that there was an even greater advantage to them as mechanical food catchers and made them even wider when my catfish was moved to another tank! From then on all I had to do was rinse them in tap water when I did water changes - just like a pre-filter on an intake tube. So they made my sump nice and quiet AND kept it cleaner!!

Now that I know how a sump works and how to set one up, I'm really interested in the bean animal style of overflow. It's pretty darned awesome and I'd love to try it - if I had a drilled tank, time, money and skill. Oh and I'm only going to have my tank for another 18 months so it doesn't make sense to change everything at this point - humph!!

Great additional info Toni. The reason a lot of people eventually tend to go towards drilled tanks for overflows is that the U tube becomes an area where things may go wrong. Basically, you eliminate a variable if you bypass using a U tube and plumb it directly. I will say this, before drilling my 75g I was super apprehensive about doing it. Now, after I have done it, I think to myself that I was worried about nothing. There are far more difficult things to do in our hobby than drill a hole in a tank :)

[strawberryblonde]

Yup yup, I really didn't love my overflow box Rick!

I would have much preferred a drilled tank, but doing that with my current tank wasn't feasible and I didn't have the spare cash to buy a whole new large tank (ok, had the cash but I'm scottish and far too cheap to buy something new if what I have is still working lol)

I still have a spare 55 gallon hanging around and one of these day I might try drilling it! Honest...maybe...someday...

Even though the U-Tube overflow box gets a lot of negative comments from sump owners and it is a bit of a pain to set up in the beginning, I ran it for several years and never had any problems with it at all. No overflows, no draining the sump dry, nothing. Oh and never lost a fish to it! Did lose a couple of shrimp, but they landed in with the catfish and bred very nicely down there in the muck. =)

[afriend]

I can't help you with sumps because I've never had one. I use external canister filters, with an external pump. Here's a link to my filtration system along with a write up as to how it works:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108835-Getting-the-WOW-Affect-with-Allot-Less-Work-Part-3-Water-Filtration-System

There are two canister filters: one for mechanical (30 micron using two pleated filters) and a second that serves as a biological filter. Note also that I use a custom designed Purigen Reactor that really helps keep the tank clean. Here's a link that explains just how clean my tank stays between cleanings:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108768-Getting-the-WOW-Affect-with-Allot-Less-Work-Part-1-The-Aquarium

There are many sources for the family of Nu-Clear canister filters, the following is from Coral Reef Supply:

http://www.inlandseasproducts.com/Articles.asp?ID=246

What I like about the Nu-Clear canister filters and my filtration set up:

They absolutely do not leak.
They are extremely rugged and will last for years (I've had mine for almost 10 years and they are like new)
The pleated canister cartridges can be cleaned over and over for years.
It's easy to clean the mechanical filter without making a mess.
30 micron filtration really helps to keep the water clear.
The separate external biological filter allows for a huge amount of media and does't need servicing for at least two years.
When cleaning either the mechanical or biological filter it does not mess up the tank.
When cleaning the mechanical filter it does't mess up the biological filter because they are separate.
It allows me to place the filtration system at a distance from the tank. (Mine is in the basement below the tank)
The pressure gauge on the mechanical filter indicates when servicing is needed.

Hope this might help you.

[kemp]

hi. I'm starting my first discus tank and am new to simply discus also. i have a few questions if anyone can help? the tank is 350 litres or 93 sum gallons. have kept a wide range of tropicals before gbrs and that sort of thing for a couple years without issue and now looking to upgrade (or thats how i see it) to discus. so my dilemma is the top of my tank is partially enclosed which means no hob and a bugger to get canister filter (not necessarily too keen on a canister anyways) pipe bends over. my idea is to use 2x sponge filter ati hydro #4 x2 and x2 eheim biopower 200s as i want good filtration with the bonuses of canister without maintenance issues and enclosed top issues, and go bare bottom. is this too much? HELP!

[Cosmo]

Just to jump in with my 2 cents :p I have a 180gal acrylic tank, which means it was easy to drill, but instead of going with a sump I went with multiple cannister filters. I used to run an Eheim 2017, an Eheim 2229 wet/dry cannister, and a Marineland 350 with a micron cartridge for mechanical filtratation. I had the intakes attached to bulkheads in the back with the outputs through spraybars across the back of the tank. Worked great. Was always fascintated with sumps and actually had one set up for a 4 tank breeder system before I had to break down my fishroom.. never got to use it :( The old 2017s were a PITA to clean but the new cannisters all have baskets that make cleaning a breeze.