Jack's 140

[Jack L]

the tank is up and running now. i'll find some older pics, but not a whole lot to show.
it would just be picks of it filled and empty, filled and empty as i got the plumbing resolved. you can see the sump, i simplied it down from 8 pieces OEM to a flex pvc simplification

from here though i can post pics as the tank matures and plants stabilize.
in time the val should make a green wall in back

i know i'm not following the best advice, but trust me, i'm paying the price, growing in a planted is more work that i remembered. i should have just done BB then set up the planted tank

i recently removed several pieces of wood and rocks to make maintenance easier.

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[jmf3460]

oh wow, this looks like a scene from a north American lake, very nice use of driftwood and tall background plants, I really like how you placed the vals in the center of the background making like a backdrop behind the wood. The contrast of the paler and browner crypts up front also looks great. love the moss balls, love the sand, love it. this tank is spatially correct and very pleasing to the eye. good job!! maybe some tannins to the water to make it look even more natural??

[Jack L]

i tried to edit this into first post, but that option is currently MIA...odd?
anyway.
pre wood/stone/plants
the sand is multi purpose sand quickrete, mix of sand and gravel, i like it much more that pfs that everyone recommends
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this area needed more wood
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found a nice piece, this wood is crazy hard/heavy. when through 2 batteries with jabsaw notching it out for val growth
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[Jack L]

oh wow, this looks like a scene from a north American lake, very nice use of driftwood and tall background plants, I really like how you placed the vals in the center of the background making like a backdrop behind the wood. The contrast of the paler and browner crypts up front also looks great. love the moss balls, love the sand, love it. this tank is spatially correct and very pleasing to the eye. good job!! maybe some tannins to the water to make it look even more natural??

thanks!

the plan is for the val to become the entire background. the overflow in center make a background awkward.
what i wanted was red vall. i can NOT find red val, i had it 20 years ago, it was thicker and had lots of red, but no luck now. that is how i got the snails, ordered "red" val from a place in florida. i had one of those 3d backgrounds in another tank, it looked great, but in time it was completely hidden by plants anyway.

you can see some stargrass(huge clump on right) and some other plants on left, but i've been removing them as simpler is is looking better to my eye.and some of them aren't doing as well as others.

you would like the tannin from the driftwood(since i believe i read you add tea tannin), but it was making things tooo dark and seemed to be blocking too much light to the plants. the tank is a little on the tall side, so getting light to the bottom is already an issue.

i'm trying to keep it an amazon in spirit. of course as soon as i didn't use wilds it is just a loose tie.

however i was in the amazon, and the black water is so black, you can't see your paddle. and there weren't pieces of wood, there were entire trees going by.

[jmf3460]

I agree OP that simpler is better in this tank. are your plants in pots back there or just rooted into the sand or is there something under the sand??

[Jack L]

there are 100+lbs of the multi purpose sand.
they are all planted with tweezers in the the sand individually.

over the years i have tried different substrates, addititives, DIY C02, etc, when i get it just right, it helps, but its more to keep up with and more plants to dispose of.

[Jack L]

more plants
crypts, they seems to do fine in this tank with lower light, though it seems pretty bright with these LED compared to CFL
some java too

(yes, i know they aren't from the amazon basin) though i don't think many of the plants in the trade are.

they look similar to existing, but a little taller, hopefully won't look hodgepodge

i plan to soak them in my my city water for a while to help kill off whatever.
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[rickztahone]

FYI, soaking them in water will not do much in getting rid of any parasites. There are a few plant drips that are known to be effective. A couple of my favorites are PP baths and bleach baths. Be aware, both treatments can be super harsh on delicate plants and typically melts them. I have always preferred taking that risk rather than the risk of a parasite entering my tank by way of plants.

[Jack L]

even city water that reeks of chlorine?

[rickztahone]

even city water that reeks of chlorine?
I'm going to have to say yes

[Jack L]

well, i've done 10% chlorox dips before, i can do it again. i'll google the dip times, it has been a while.

[Jack L]

did bleach dip, but only for 1 min instead of 2.

3/4 cup bleach to gallon of water. there were about 8 sister plants per crypt pot, better than expected. though i probably killed them all with the bleach ; )

decent blob on options:
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatfishblog/2011/07/20/dipping-plants-to-eliminate-snails/#.VdenKPlVick

[Jack L]

some setup details

tanks is a dsa 140, no canopy, since i don't have all kinds of lighting and ballasts to hide anymore, skipped it (and don't miss it)

light is 48" current USA satellite plus (the higher powered one) (sooooooooo much nicer than lights of old)

sump is 30 gal ruby, i'm not really using all its bells/whistles, i prefer simpler
pump is a mag 11 (noisey but works)
plumbing is herbie with flex pvc
water runs through sock, then through pinky floss, then through seachem matrix (and sometimes purigen), then through sponge intake on pump and back up

500 watt catalina heater

i have a phosban reactor, don't run it. not sure what it would add besides more maintenace

[jmf3460]

jack, impressive set up. the current USA satellite plus is a really good light. ive never owned one but ive heard a lot of great things about it. it has a great spectrum.

[Jack L]

man this tank looks barren....

[Jack L]

did bleach dip, but only for 1 min instead of 2.

3/4 cup bleach to gallon of water. there were about 8 sister plants per crypt pot, better than expected. though i probably killed them all with the bleach ; )

decent blob on options:
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatfishblog/2011/07/20/dipping-plants-to-eliminate-snails/#.VdenKPlVick

more crypt melt than normal, it blackened some fern, it should recover though

[Jack L]

update after putting in 40 more plants.
bunch more crypts and couple ferns on wood.
the heat to treat ich destroyed the existing fern

tank still looks empty. not sure i'll have patience for Val background w/o buying a pile of them.
tank is 26" high, i don't know another plant that will reach the top and not then grow over the top. means a lot of hair cuts to keep water surface open.

a BB tank is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much simpler!!!

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[strawberryblonde]

I have the 48" USA satellite LEDS and love them. Oh and they grow plants well too!

I can't believe you're going to grow those little guys out in a planted tank - whew - the work, the work! I grew out 2 batches in a planted tank, but the smallest was just a hair under 3" when I got him. He's 5.5" now (after 2 1/2 months).

Oh and I had to remove the plants in order to replace the sand...and ummm, that was weeks ago and I just can't bring myself to put them all back in. LOL

Your tank looks great, so good luck!

[Jack L]

I have the 48" USA satellite LEDS and love them. Oh and they grow plants well too!

I can't believe you're going to grow those little guys out in a planted tank - whew - the work, the work! I grew out 2 batches in a planted tank, but the smallest was just a hair under 3" when I got him. He's 5.5" now (after 2 1/2 months).

Oh and I had to remove the plants in order to replace the sand...and ummm, that was weeks ago and I just can't bring myself to put them all back in. LOL

Your tank looks great, so good luck!

do you have the satellite plus pro? or regular? i got pro since my tank is about 26" deep

i wish they had a 60" it says 48" to 60" but that is because two 6" feet. it still works over my 60" tank, but the sides are dim at top before the light spreads. there were only 12 reviews i could find when i bought it, i see more now. the remote distance is short, and the touch pad is a bit well..touchy to use. but this is sooo much slicker than other lights i have had and uses 60 watts, NO FAN NOISE ANYMORE either. i just use the 6500 preset, the other modes are just a novelty IMO. the ramp up/down and no timers, nice. i thought about getting another strip, but it seems to be growing the plants in there, so i will save my money for the next tank that i'm fairly certain will house wilds.

growing out in this tank is a LOT LOT of bother. someone on here said that sand is easy to siphon, and acts like a BB, umm..not so much i have to hold he siphon at just the proper distance to remove the detritus, but leave the sand. unfortunately my assistance is too short to do this task.
I've have to remove several rocks and wood to be able to get the siphon around. the edges of a rock/wood seem to gather all the detritus.

thanks for complement, the tank has potential, but its not there yet.

the idea of runts is sounding better all the time, it will make my tank look bigger : )

[Jack L]

Discus as algae eater, eating algae that is growing on moss ball
on left, fuzz algae on fern happened when raising the temp for ich

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[Jack L]

Crypts coming in decent along front and mid, LOTS of melt post Clorox dip, but most survived.
the Val is not spreading much along the back, just keeps growing longer.....

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[Jack L]

currently q tanking, learned lesson by not qtanking some farlowellas.

-school of metae cories
-more ottos
-butterfly plec

[pastry]

the Val is not spreading much along the back, just keeps growing longer.....

90101

It will... Before you know it you'll be removing half of it monthly just to see your fish. Most planted tanks look sparse at first.... Give it time

[strawberryblonde]

do you have the satellite plus pro? or regular? i got pro since my tank is about 26" deep

i wish they had a 60" it says 48" to 60" but that is because two 6" feet. it still works over my 60" tank, but the sides are dim at top before the light spreads. there were only 12 reviews i could find when i bought it, i see more now. the remote distance is short, and the touch pad is a bit well..touchy to use. but this is sooo much slicker than other lights i have had and uses 60 watts, NO FAN NOISE ANYMORE either. i just use the 6500 preset, the other modes are just a novelty IMO. the ramp up/down and no timers, nice. i thought about getting another strip, but it seems to be growing the plants in there, so i will save my money for the next tank that i'm fairly certain will house wilds.

growing out in this tank is a LOT LOT of bother. someone on here said that sand is easy to siphon, and acts like a BB, umm..not so much i have to hold he siphon at just the proper distance to remove the detritus, but leave the sand. unfortunately my assistance is too short to do this task.
I've have to remove several rocks and wood to be able to get the siphon around. the edges of a rock/wood seem to gather all the detritus.

thanks for complement, the tank has potential, but its not there yet.

the idea of runts is sounding better all the time, it will make my tank look bigger : )

So sorry, I totally missed your question!!

I have the regular, not the pro and my tank is 31" tall. I generally keep it about 4" off the top of the tank, but sometimes move it up so that it's a foot above the tank for a few days at a time. Not on purpose mind you, I just move it up there in order to do my big big cleaning jobs and then tend to forget to move it back down. My plants don't seem to mind and continue to grow. I don't have Vals in there at the moment, but do have some coming in this week as a background cover, so I'll see how they do with the lighting. But the swords, crypts and anubias all love it.

I'm like you, I don't bother with the novelty modes. I just pick one color each day and leave it at that. The blues make my cards and eruption leopards look awesome and the orange and yellows make my red snakeskins and red cover pop. The standard 6500 is on every few days for max growth on the plants.

[Jack L]

really, the regular works on a 31" tank?!

well the pro now runs for only 200 bucks on amazon, WAY less than i paid. mines sits a 1/4" off the glass canopy. i use the legs fully extended and it sags some. if i lift it up it sprays light all over the place, not down into the water.

mins is on 6500 then 5% only blue at night, its one auto pilot.

what do you used for substrate? i'm pretty much fed up with sand. the plants are doing okay (not great) in it. the sand is so dense the detritus just lays on top and never makes the transition to mulm.

watch your Val for snails (unless you want them)

[Jack L]

added 5 ottos and 6 cories
they were quarantined for several weeks, treated with prazi and rid ich.
been in display tank for few days, seems fine

you can see some growth in the Ds,

of note, back right is the eggs, they were being eaten by the female as i took this photo

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[jmf3460]

fish are growing well jack. I just looked back at your first pic compared to this one and the fish seem to be coming along just fine. I liked the tank in your very first pic much better. The moss on the wood and all the crypts make it look a bit messy and crowded IMO. have you thought of putting a solid colored background on this tank? There is a lot going on here but it is a unique looking discus tank if that's what you were going for. the vals are my favorite part, those things are tall as all get out. I think it would serve your tank better to clump all the crypts into one or two spots instead of scattered like they are. maybe once they grow it will be better but I thought I would give my .02. the one bigger crypt in the mid right portion looks really good as a contrast to the browns of the wood.

[Jack L]

fish are growing well jack. I just looked back at your first pic compared to this one and the fish seem to be coming along just fine. I liked the tank in your very first pic much better. The moss on the wood and all the crypts make it look a bit messy and crowded IMO. have you thought of putting a solid colored background on this tank? There is a lot going on here but it is a unique looking discus tank if that's what you were going for. the vals are my favorite part, those things are tall as all get out. I think it would serve your tank better to clump all the crypts into one or two spots instead of scattered like they are. maybe once they grow it will be better but I thought I would give my .02. the one bigger crypt in the mid right portion looks really good as a contrast to the browns of the wood.

thanks for your ideas, looking and comments.

a bit messy is an understatement, out of no where a new kind of algae appeared, is looks a bit like someone sprayed cotton candy on it. i'm just letting it takes its course, it will hopefully disappear in the same fashion it appeared.

my plan is for the entire back to become completely opaque with val, rendering a background hidden, but allowing viewing from the back if needed.

the vals grow and grow, i don't know if they would stop, they go to the top, then across and back down making a loop. i have been cutting these. i use a curved scissor as if you cut them and leave a straight line, it looks like they were cut.

the crypt you like in mid right, that is actually a compacta sword, its hard to tell from photo

the plan is to eventually to have a complete bed of low crypts across the entire front, that is why i have them spread out in a hope they will fill in.

crypts in middle will grow 12" or so with the the tall vals in the back.

[Jack L]

been toying with idea to leave the sand behind.

was testing some API aquatic plant media. it drops PH from 8.4 to like 7.6 as well as puts out ammonia. maybe that ammonia would actually help plants, but tank doesn't need any more bioload.

their claim of not altering ph is bogus though, i've tested a couple times to be sure.

[jmf3460]

been toying with idea to leave the sand behind. was testing some API aquatic plant media.

this is a baaaad idea. sand is much better for discus tank. if you want to change to a planted substrate I suggest eco complete over the API all day long. maybe wait til discus are over 5" to make this move

[Jack L]

this is a baaaad idea. sand is much better for discus tank. if you want to change to a planted substrate I suggest eco complete over the API all day long. maybe wait til discus are over 5" to make this move

Have you used API?
I had used a prior branded (best a can tell, it was called profile) name of it before and had really good results


Well the look of sand is preferred so it might stay.

I'll look up eco complete, see what it is about, thanks.

[jmf3460]

yes ive used API, its a messy substrate, no matter how long you rinse, you never get rid of the dust. it took my tank 4 days to settle. eco complete is much better IME.

[Jack L]

yes ive used API, its a messy substrate, no matter how long you rinse, you never get rid of the dust. it took my tank 4 days to settle. eco complete is much better IME.

thanks, i want to see the colors of it

[Jack L]

update
plants: java ferns just don't do well in this tank, gets covered in algae and doesn't grow, val, crypts, sag are doing good. the sag is really sending out some runners lately
fish: all fish out of q-tank, couple cories didn't do well on the tranisition
Ds: some are going to be runts, some are doing decent this is one that has a nice shape/size. approx measurement for reference, it is turned a little bit
setup: went from 4 returns to 2 fan returns, attempting to increase water flow in tank to get more detritus up to overflow and off of the plants/sand


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[pastry]

Had same problem with java at first but let it go on and then java out did algae over time. I suck at Anubias though...

[Jack L]

Had same problem with java at first but let it go on and then java out did algae over time. I suck at Anubias though...

i have removed all but one plant of the java fern, i will give it some more time based you you comment.

i also never have luck with anubias, but i don't like them anyway, they look like they are plastic.

[Jack L]

FDBW from SD sponsor are a big hit

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[jmf3460]

looking good Jack. the fish look very healthy and hungry. Everybody goes crazy for FDBW.

[Jack L]

looking good Jack. the fish look very healthy and hungry. Everybody goes crazy for FDBW.

Thanks!

[Jack L]

system update: after a lot of reading on this board and elsewhere i have added Poret to sump
10,20,30
and have removed the filter sock.
the sock turning into a white noise generator after a couple days has gotten old. i have plenty of data points on the water params for last 6 months, will see if all the foam has an impact in future after it matures
the matrix has been in there over 3 months, i saw no impact on Nitrates as they advertise
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[rickztahone]

Keep in mind, nitrates have no place to go if they are trapped in any kind of media. Poret foam is awesome at trapping detritus, I can attest to that, but it still needs to be cleaned and removed from the tank at some point which is the point I was also trying to make on my sump video from yesterday.

[Debow]

Where can I find flexible pvc like that I see you guys use? Id like to get some for my outlets.

[Jack L]

Where can I find flexible pvc like that I see you guys use? Id like to get some for my outlets.

I got mine at pool supply and I think some at home depot. It simplified my setup and reduced many connection points that were potential leak points

[Jack L]

Keep in mind, nitrates have no place to go if they are trapped in any kind of media. Poret foam is awesome at trapping detritus, I can attest to that, but it still needs to be cleaned and removed from the tank at some point which is the point I was also trying to make on my sump video from yesterday.

Hoping that in time bb will colonize that process it. Only time will tell

[Debow]

This is what I need for going from my living room to my basement to the sump. right now I have 5 elbows per outlet and inlet. Can this be used for the siphon line too or will it collapse.

[Jack L]

This is what I need for going from my living room to my basement to the sump. right now I have 5 elbows per outlet and inlet. Can this be used for the siphon line too or will it collapse.

It is thick walled, you should be fine. Also due to thicker wall and smooth wall it was quieter than the sump corrugated hose others use, but it is not as flexible as corrugated

[rickztahone]

Where can I find flexible pvc like that I see you guys use? Id like to get some for my outlets.

Here you go :)
http://www.marinedepot.com/Ultra_Flex_PVC_Pipe_Tubing_Flexible_PVC_Tubing-Plumbing_Parts-FT1383-FIFTTUFP-vi.html

[Debow]

Thanks!! I want to over hall some crappy vinyl tubing and undersized pvc with countless bends. Just as long as it works for my over flow drain. The last time I tried to use vinyl tubing and it collapsed and was a waist of time .

[rickztahone]

Thanks!! I want to over hall some crappy vinyl tubing and undersized pvc with countless bends. Just as long as it works for my over flow drain. The last time I tried to use vinyl tubing and it collapsed and was a waist of time .

Flexible pvc is very rigid, so much so, that you do not want to put it on too much of a bend. It handles swooped angles better and would definitely be a great upgrade to your system

[Jack L]

november update
Val is getting very long, growing long more than it is creating new plants to make a natural background as planned.
the Sagittaria is showing two forms, low and light green, as well as taller w/ red. from what i read the plant can do both.
the Sagittaria is pushing out a lot of runners across the front and seeming to take the taller form, not ideal for the front.
the crypts are growing into clumps that looks like some are ready for some splitting and transplanting, the sag and crypts are competing for same space

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[jmf3460]

Looking good Jack, you have a ton of BBA though. eventually the bba will outcompete the plants for nutrients and you will have a total meltdown. You should really try and figure out why you have all the bba.......lighting too strong?inconsistent levels of co2? lighting too close to top of tank?? nitrate levels too high??

[rickztahone]

Looking good Jack, you have a ton of BBA though. eventually the bba will outcompete the plants for nutrients and you will have a total meltdown. You should really try and figure out why you have all the bba.......lighting too strong?inconsistent levels of co2? lighting too close to top of tank?? nitrate levels too high??

agreed. that is a whole lot of algae. So much so, that if you do not start trying to dial in a solution, you will more than likely lose all your plants.

[Jack L]

Thanks!! I want to over hall some crappy vinyl tubing and undersized pvc with countless bends. Just as long as it works for my over flow drain. The last time I tried to use vinyl tubing and it collapsed and was a waist of time .

look at start of this thread, those bends in the flex pvc were hard to bend and hold, its putting a good bit of pressure on the sump hole. you can bend it more over distance fine, but in a tight space, this is about what i could do with it. the vinyl to the right has a bit of collapse to it, but its working. if i put flex pvc on those, it would be very hard to move around pump. but i've considered it as i wonder if i'm losing pressure from the vinyl hose losing shape

[Jack L]

Looking good Jack, you have a ton of BBA though. eventually the bba will outcompete the plants for nutrients and you will have a total meltdown. You should really try and figure out why you have all the bba.......lighting too strong?inconsistent levels of co2? lighting too close to top of tank?? nitrate levels too high??

yeah you are right, i've just rolled with it. you listed 4 possible causes, and cruising the web turns up a bunch more and a counter to every claim.

something has changed, but i don't know what. my inaccurate test kits are trending the same as always, but something is different. the sagittaria subulata took off recently as well, and i didn't change anything for that to happen either.

i remove the leaves that get completly covered.

there have been some other algeas that have come and from tanks in last 12 months. the ONLY one i could figure out was the green spot on the glass. if i added flourish it will create green spot on the glass over and over, so i stopped using it.

thanks for compliment and watching progress

[Jack L]

well the one upside to the bba covering the wood... i don't have to see the nerite eggs anymore, they never dissolved even after 6 months

i don't know what to change, i didn't change anything and it showed up. i shorted my photo period a by 1 hr on 11/2 based on a different thread, but that didn't do anything for it. hmm, i wonder if shorting the photo period by 1 hr spurred on the sagittaria subulata?

i actually don't mind the look of it, i see algea in nature all the time, as long as it doesn't overtake the tank, i'll just employ careful observation.

the Ds also eat it.

[jmf3460]

i would start with raising your lighting at least 6" from where it is and shortening your lighting by at least 4 hours. one thing you have to remember is that all your plants are low light plants, and you have a medium/high lighting on them. do you dose EI?? if so I would stop. get yourself some metricide x off amazon and dose everyday.

[Filip]

The tank looks very wild and natural to me,I like it.

As for algae, my first suspect in a disbalance of a discus tank would always be DOCs and nitrates.

We feed them large and messy meals several times a day and they eat like pigs.
With this amount of DOCs daily input in a tank with substrate and plants it's impossible to keep it clean.
Even the daily 90% Wcs with siphoning can not sufice.

[Jack L]

i would start with raising your lighting at least 6" from where it is and shortening your lighting by at least 4 hours. one thing you have to remember is that all your plants are low light plants, and you have a medium/high lighting on them. do you dose EI?? if so I would stop. get yourself some metricide x off amazon and dose everyday.

the angle of the light spread is meant to sit on top. i can figured out how to lower the brightness, but its not all that bright when seen in person. i bought the higher output version in order to penetrate through the taller than average water column based on light intensity issues i had with a taller tank before.

i don't dose anything, no. EI, are you referring to estimate index?

light only runs for 8 hrs now

thanks for ideas.

based on your reference to EI, i just read on that for a while. thinking lowering light will be a worthwhile experiment.

[Jack L]

The tank looks very wild and natural to me,I like it.

As for algae, my first suspect in a disbalance of a discus tank would always be DOCs and nitrates.

We feed them large and messy meals several times a day and they eat like pigs.
With this amount of DOCs daily input in a tank with substrate and plants it's impossible to keep it clean.
Even the daily 90% Wcs with siphoning can not sufice.

thanks for feedback, i concur that the algae on the wood is an aesthetic plus.

my hunch is that the the various algae that have come and gone are a result of the excess fuel in the water. and you are right about the messy food, my BH mix covers everything in a dusting of bits. my next batch i'll add things to keep it together better.

when i feed frozen, mysis, bloodworms, brine, etc, i can see the mess melting into the water. not only do i put a lot of food in the tank, the Ds create more and more excrement as they grow.

i am wondering if the poret foam addition is going to cause a spike until it colonizes to consume nitrates as advertised. but these test kits are SO variable, it is really hard to tell anymore what i'm seeing. the only nitrate kit that seems reliable is seachem, and that is only for comparison for multiple samples as same time., i can't match it to the card with any consistency.

i'm also thinking the algae is removing excess nutrients from the water. so as long as they don't turn the tank into a giant fuzzball, i'll leave them.

[Jack L]

reference pic from initial setup
june 2015, approx 12 weeks old
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[Jack L]

in tank for a week
look HOW SMALL the one is front left
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[Jack L]

thanksgiving eggs....they are more on the backside of wood this time
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[Jack L]

male fertilizing them
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[Filip]

They come a long way in a short time Jack. Congrats.
They gave you nice thanksgiving present. :)
Is this their first time?

[Jack L]

thanks. and you are right, seeing it gradually I don't notice, but looking back on photos it is a lot of change
eggs...no, they keep eating them. this is probably about the 6th attempt. at first she ate them within hours, last couple times she has let them go 24+ hrs, so i'm just seeing if they will get the hang of it.

[rickztahone]

wow, that is a lot of growth for 5 months! Congrats.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Jack, the fish are looking great!! If they stay on track they're going to end up being some jumbo discus. =)

About your lighting and the algae issues. I had a problem a few years ago with BBA and went nuts trying to figure out what was causing it. I never did cure it, so at that point I decided to change lighting, pulled out my driftwood and SCRUBBED the crap out of it, let it dry, then soaked it in my jacuzzi for 2 weeks while checking for any signs of the danged algae. When I was sure it was clean, I put it back in the tank.

And in the meantime, I added my new lighting and removed all leaves on my plants that had algae on them. The plants looked pretty sparse for awhile there...lol

So the lighting I chose is the USA Satellite LED strip, but not the pro one. It's the cheap one. It still comes with a nice remote and plenty of lighting options, but it's not as bright and isn't as "good" for plant growth.

Since my plants are all low light plants, that sounded great to me! I also have a 32" tall tank, so even less light actually hits my plants than would happen with a normal sized tank.

And I haven't had any algae in two years! None - zip, zilch, nada. It doesn't even grow on the back wall of my tank.

Organics in the tank like the beefheart you use do create a great growth medium for algae, but with a less powerful light strip and one that isn't specifically designed to grow plants you still should be fine.

The last thing is my little wood pieces attached to the top of my tank. The first set is 2" off the top so it raises the lighting just that little extra bit, but doesn't cause a huge light spread. The other set is uprights so that I can toss my lighting up there (10" above the tank) when I'm doing water changes and also for those times when I want to do a more offset lighting in the tank - especially useful when they are feeling stressed, but I still want to see them, or for when my pairs are laying eggs and would fight like crazy if the lights are out at night. I just raise the lighting and dim it and voila, no more night time stress during egg laying.

[farebox]

Here's what I been using for the last year with negative issues: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPumpTubing.html

[rickztahone]

Here's what I been using for the last year with negative issues: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPumpTubing.html

I will just quote this to clarify the fact that I believe Roland meant that there were NO negative issues. Correct Roland?

[Jack L]

Here's what I been using for the last year with negative issues: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPumpTubing.html

thanks, i'll look into it, the thicker wall might just be what is needed.

[Jack L]

algae, so based on feedback, i did a bunch of reading, some PMs, now i'm doing an experiment. which is going to be a bit hard as i'm used to seeing a glowing bright tank.

the light lets me set every channel, Red, Green, Blue and White. so i have reduced the white output by 50%. i have been using the sunlight mode (uses all red and 1/2 green, no blue, not full spectrum which is 100% of every channel)

the val is covering the top more than before, so with the val, and my setting change, there is significantly reduced lighting.
i will give it a few weeks and see what happens, if it helps, i'll creep it back up to 75% and see what happens and go from there.

thanks all for ideas. now onto messing with the sump, i have a lot of matrix in there, but i don't think its getting much water flow.

[Jack L]

the matrix was in bottom 1st chamber, on down-flow shelves, and in pump chamber. now its all together where i think it will get more water flow, bottom area gets less flow, top gets more flow, so put regular matrix on bottom, and larger pond on top, based on seachems information on. also put it all on block of poret 10ppi to allow upflow and place for mulm to accumulate. will let this run for a while and see if the costly matrix does anything to make nitrates go away as advertised. the way i had it before, i don't think i was giving it enough of a chance. the water was not going through it all as much.
92221

[Jack L]

Dec '15 (ish) update
the BBA is on the decline, i have reduced the light as recommended. i configured it to run at about 50% power on the sunlight spectrum
val still isn't spreading much, have root tabs on way, will see if that helps
sag is still spreading and crypts still doing well, but as this fills in, i like the idea of all "grass" and no crypts, but probably won't toss them

the spawning has stopped, i am not sure if it is due to now using 50/50 water, or the fact that the pair was chased off the piece of wood that they were using by another (now larger) discus. it stands guard on the wood, but doesn't have a mate.

the blue diamonds WERE the biggest, but they have been passed up by the snakeskins and a couple turqs.

more shrimp, ottos and farlowella in q-tank

the particles are from feeding with my last batch of BH. its makes a HUGE mess. the main thing i did different was i had it pre-ground and it lost a LOT of blood. when i ground the chunks w/ flake before it seemed to hold together noticeably better

9322093221

[Jack L]

someone wanted to see how i had the overflows in the back. i had it pulled away from wall and took a pic
when filled with water, the water in the chamber is up to the emergency tube top on the right and completely over the lower tube on the left make a quiet siphon
i have the coupler on the right and another small PVC pipe on top so i can adjust the water height in the chamber w/o messing with the main tubes

94063

[Fish Tank Travis]

Hello,

I just read through your thread. Very impressive!!!

I am also going to start looking into a planted discus tank, but I plan on growing out the discus in a bare bottom tank and then transferring them into a mature planted tank.

I wanted to mention about the flexible PVC you are using. I know that you, and others have mentioned that it is pretty stiff and doesn't bend too easily. I believe that if you heat it while you bend it you can shape it how you want and then it will harden back up when it cools. You would be best to use a heat gun (basically a hair drier on steroids) and heat up the tube where you are wanting to bend it. You still can't bend it extremely sharp but you should be able to bend it a bit sharper than what is in your pictures.

Thanks for the great write-up and all of the pictures. I will definitely check back to see your progress.

[Dhavalsp]

Hi Jack, nice thread, enjoyed going through it.

I tried to look for but I may have missed it, what was your WC/feeding schedule like when your discus were small?

[jmf3460]

Jack any updates on your tank?

[Jack L]

3-2016 update
-The bba slowly still is dying out. It definitely quit spreading with the lower light
-I added some DIY fertilizer capsules, maybe saw a small uptick in plant growth, but mostly just saw new kinds of algae show up. Won't do that again.
-I euthanized the one fish noted on another thread. He was never right from beginning, he was 1/2 the size of the rest. He measured 4.5" on way to freezer. He got over the popeye and bloat once before(months ago), but this past time it just keep getting worse and was not letting up. The remaining ones are fine. So out of the 13, lost 1 to ich when little, and the one we called "runt" is now gone. The remaining are okay so far. They are leapfrogging each other in growth.
-there are 2 pairs that spawn regularly, no wigglers, sometimes they have let the eggs go long enough but it hasn't happened. Based on other thread, likely the TDS
-I am still happy with the poret foam. I am interested to see if they ever eat nitrate in anaerobic areas as I read they can in time.
-assassin snail are slowly chipping away at the pest snails.
-the sag has grown taller than the books say, I'll eventually be moving it to the back I guess. Having them in the front is a different look, and it added dome dimension/depth/layers to the tank but is starting to be cluttered now.

[Jack L]

95449954509545195452

[DJW]

The tall Vals in the back are looking very nice.

[jmf3460]

such a different looking discus tank you have Jack. I like the little whip tail making it into the close ups, I can hear him screaming "hey don't forget me!" those vals look really cool in there creeping across the surface like that as they grow. are you spot treating the bba at all?

[ericNH]

Cool tank - it's not easy to keep healthy discus in a successful planted tank. Well, at least not for me. When I had planted substrate and driftwood like yours I had algae everywhere, including all over the plants, and the plants did not grow, they actually shrunk. Now I have them in pots and they are doing better, but nothing like yours. Anyway, thanks for the update, I enjoy checking out all the diferent types of tanks and discus we see here on SD.

[Jack L]

such a different looking discus tank you have Jack. I like the little whip tail making it into the close ups, I can hear him screaming "hey don't forget me!" those vals look really cool in there creeping across the surface like that as they grow. are you spot treating the bba at all?

thanks. the sag is going to be back in with the val i'm pretty sure. but it will take a while to transplant it all.

i only have 2 of the farlowella in there. i will get more when they come available. i am thinking they are wild caught, but not sure. i just got 4 and only 1 survived q-tank.

i like them in the tank. they will attach to a blade of val, right by the output of the pump and whip around in the current for hours. i imagine they do the same thing in the wild.
they also change color to blend with the wood or sand

the only thing i did for bbA was what you said, i reduced my like to 50%. that also saves 30 watts of electricity...whoohooo ; )
even thought its 1/2 the light output, its not 1/2 as bright to the eye.

[Jack L]

Cool tank - it's not easy to keep healthy discus in a successful planted tank. Well, at least not for me. When I had planted substrate and driftwood like yours I had algae everywhere, including all over the plants, and the plants did not grow, they actually shrunk. Now I have them in pots and they are doing better, but nothing like yours. Anyway, thanks for the update, I enjoy checking out all the diferent types of tanks and discus we see here on SD.

thanks
and thanks for stopping by thread.
it is definitely more work than a BB.

[Jack L]

Hello,

I just read through your thread. Very impressive!!!

I am also going to start looking into a planted discus tank, but I plan on growing out the discus in a bare bottom tank and then transferring them into a mature planted tank.

I wanted to mention about the flexible PVC you are using. I know that you, and others have mentioned that it is pretty stiff and doesn't bend too easily. I believe that if you heat it while you bend it you can shape it how you want and then it will harden back up when it cools. You would be best to use a heat gun (basically a hair drier on steroids) and heat up the tube where you are wanting to bend it. You still can't bend it extremely sharp but you should be able to bend it a bit sharper than what is in your pictures.

Thanks for the great write-up and all of the pictures. I will definitely check back to see your progress.

thanks
and i will try to remember the heat trick if i have to bend that flex pvc again.

[Jack L]

The tall Vals in the back are looking very nice.

thanks, now if i could get it to fill all the way in.....

[Jack L]

Hi Jack, nice thread, enjoyed going through it.

I tried to look for but I may have missed it, what was your WC/feeding schedule like when your discus were small?

thanks. i hope others find the progression is neat to see/useful

when it comes to WC i would follow the advice of the board pros, you can't go wrong with a lot of WC.

my WC scheduled varied depending on conditions.

food, when little it was 5-6 times a day with help of auto feeder.
a lot of variety, pellet, bh, and frozens types and FDBW

now i hand feed AM. auto feed mid day, hand feed evening.
and variety is less
homemade BH am/pm
pellets midday w/ feeder
al's FDBW some evening with BH or in place of it
but i stopped with all the frozen worms. they liked it, i got tired of buying it.

[Jack L]

May 2016 update
some sag started over taking the front, and drowning out the crypt.
relocated about 100 stems of sag to the back, still don't have a full grass screen in back yet, but the front is much more open now.
crypts are doing good too, and some java fern i forgot about that got over taken by algae is making a comeback

there are 2 pair that lay eggs, they have never hatched. i haven't lowered my TDS to try to get them to hatch though. every week to 10 days one of them lays eggs
same feeding as before
the poret foam is great, went 6 months before i had to clean it.
fish are still growing, slower, but still growing some.

98170

[rickztahone]

Looking good Jack. There are some big boys (and girls) in there!

[Dhavalsp]

this looks beautiful...

[jmf3460]

beautiful tank Jack, as I have said from the start it is such a natural looking scape. Nothing is overplaced, nothing looks like it was planned (but I'm sure it was) it looks like it just has grown in naturally. The sag looks awesome, if you ever thin it out please let me know, id love to have some of your tall growing sag.

[Jack L]

thanks Rick and Dhavalsp

Jackyn, i'll be happy to send you some when i get to point of thinning. a lot of it didn't like being relocated to back, as i have been taking out a of dead blades. i think i let it dry out to much on the top canopy during transplanting. the die off seems to have stopped, so i'm now hoping it starts producing again.

[Debow]

I have tried sag but never got it to grow, Could have been a bad batch but I'd like to try it again as I have a lot of height to take advantage of. Any tips of the sag?

[Jack L]

I have tried sag but never got it to grow, Could have been a bad batch but I'd like to try it again as I have a lot of height to take advantage of. Any tips of the sag?

try less light.

i bought dwarf sag funny enough. some of that has continued to stayed small, others has grown tall. it was all short for months. i read this can happen. i also read that often when it gets transplanted to other part of tank, it changes characteristics.

carelessly i let it dry to much when i separated all the runners, and have lost a lot, but hoping it recovers and stays long even in the back.

p.s. val grows taller, some of the blades got to about 6 feet before i cut them now.

[Jack L]

Sept 2016 Update:

A lot less green in the background. Unfortunately it seems the Val and the Sag don't do well that close to each other. At first i was thinking i let it dry out, but it wasn't that dry, and thinking back, it arrived drier than than and was fine.
So, Jacklyn appears this is heading toward zero sag, however, in the back left corner, there is some that is not near any Val, and its still going.

The Crypts are doing well still as is the the compacto sword.
the short sag up front doing well.
some java fern started to make a comeback, but fizzled.

Still very happy with poret foam, i still have only cleaned it the 1 time.

i have the matrix in the sump, but really only there since i paid for it, and would have to store it somewhere. i've never seen it help as advertised.
as the purigen went dark brown, i've removed it instead of recharge/replace. haven't noticed a difference.

Assassin snails have done great job of eating pest snails. they are not starting to reproduce, but slowly.

i've bumped up the light some, from 50% white channel to 75%, hoping that will spur some plant growth and not algae growth like before when it was 100%

the CD is in front for size comparison. they seem to still be growing some.

100824

[Filip]

Its still a nice looking planted tank Jack .
Don't worry about the sag. too much . Just go and buy some other foreground plant if it looks empty in your eyes.Anubis petite is an hardy plant and an excellent choice for a foreground since its small leafed plant.
As for matrix , its just another bio filter on the market rated high in "surface area per inch" capability. Just don't expect it to do wonders .The same goes for purigen too IMO , its always better to have more than less when it comes to filtration .
This is just my 2 cents.

P.s. next time you update your discus , fool them its eating time , so that we could see more of a colours vigour and movement out of them.
On this picture they are resting under shades and apear dark .

[jmf3460]

I just love your tank Jack, I always look for updates so I can see how it is progressing. your tank is so natural and soft, it reminds me of an Asian tributary where the crypts grow naturally with the low light. not that the discus would be seen there in the wild but your tank just has that look. the algae is natural and looks good actually. what you mention with your sag, I have had the same exact thing happen to me twice. its like they grow grow grow and you think you'll never be rid of them, then for some unknown reason they just stop and they kind of die off. literally exact same thing has happened to me with the jungle val and dwarf sag. so weird.

[Dhavalsp]

which Vals are these, I have been looking for such thick vals for a while.

[Jack L]

Its still a nice looking planted tank Jack .
Don't worry about the sag. too much . Just go and buy some other foreground plant if it looks empty in your eyes.Anubis petite is an hardy plant and an excellent choice for a foreground since its small leafed plant.
As for matrix , its just another bio filter on the market rated high in "surface area per inch" capability. Just don't expect it to do wonders .The same goes for purigen too IMO , its always better to have more than less when it comes to filtration .
This is just my 2 cents.

P.s. next time you update your discus , fool them its eating time , so that we could see more of a colours vigour and movement out of them.
On this picture they are resting under shades and apear dark .


I will let the crypts continue to fill in the front, they seem to be doing well still.

I'll try to remember to snap picture during feeding time. i just have a single LED bar over the center, so rarely are they all in light. the one in the bottom center is lit up, that is how the snakes skins look.

I wanted the sag to help fill in the back, what is frustrating, is that all the sag died and a lot of the val did too, so there is less grass in the back than before i moved the sag.

[Jack L]

I just love your tank Jack, I always look for updates so I can see how it is progressing. your tank is so natural and soft, it reminds me of an Asian tributary where the crypts grow naturally with the low light. not that the discus would be seen there in the wild but your tank just has that look. the algae is natural and looks good actually. what you mention with your sag, I have had the same exact thing happen to me twice. its like they grow grow grow and you think you'll never be rid of them, then for some unknown reason they just stop and they kind of die off. literally exact same thing has happened to me with the jungle val and dwarf sag. so weird.

Thanks Jackyn,
so i bought some more val to fill in the back. I chlorox diped it, but I must have done it too strong or too long, as it all melted. and Val is typically pretty tough. maybe it will come back, time will tell. the algea is picking up a little bit with the increased light, but not uncontrollable yet.

[Jack L]

which Vals are these, I have been looking for such thick vals for a while.

Vallisneria americana 'Gigantea'

[Jack L]

Dec 2016 Update:

Still A lot less green in the background. I’ve removed the sag that went ill next to Val. Ordered some val and trying to repopulate background. Not doing much, I will put in some DIY root capsules this week to see if that helps.
The Crypts are doing well still as is the compacto sword.
The short sag up front that I never moved to back is still fine.
The java fern that started to make a comeback, nearly dead now.

Very happy with poret foam, i still have only cleaned it the 1 time.

I have not bothered recharging yet. I suppose that could also be a factor in plant health. Just a guess
Assassin snails have done great job of eating pest snails. They are now starting to reproduce, but slowly. If any SD members need some, PM me, I can try to ship them to you.

The bumped up the light seems to have jumped started algae growth only..as I expected. I’ll leave it higher for a while yet though. Algae isn’t out of control.
Adding some pictures so you can see them better while eating as requested.
It’s on my todo list to get a school of black neons, there is one loan Black Neon you can see in there.
Oh, and the farlowella always hangs on the val as it flows in the current. I expect that is what they do in the wild. I still only have 2 of them, plan to get more as well.

104370104371104372104373104374

[jmf3460]

beautiful shots of your discus Jack and the farlowella looks very similar to mine and what he does in the current. you got that bba under control??

[Jack L]

thanks.

the bba is holding steady. its weird how different algae come and go. a different color of it showed up when i bumped the lights up, or it was the same thing and just was a different color due to lighting.
oh, i did have a resurgence of some BGA, but it went away without treatment. again weird how the dynamics of the system change over time.

[Jack L]

family wanted a school in with Discus, black neon it is...

LFS had some "Japanese Algae Eating shrimp", they look like small amano with some blue color to them, and SAE(siamese algae eater), so they in in there too, along with water lettuce i'm planning to add to sump
hoping the small SAE nibble on the bba some.

i've lost Discus and farlowella from ICH due to skipping q-tank like a noob....so no longer roll those dice.

105454

[Phillydubs]

Nice jack - - clean little qt set up - how many in total there?

[Jack L]

Nice jack - - clean little qt set up - how many in total there?


thanks, 27 give or take my counting ability

[Jack L]

March '17 Update
The school of Black Neons is doing well.
Added some SAE, they did a great job of removing the hair algae. Have look at the wood compared to before when bba was going wild.
In the sump I’ve added water lettuce, got the idea on another thread from SD, from Hart24601. To keep the WL from being churned by water flow, I cut up a filter sock with large slits to act as a diffuser
I've started doing EI dosing and saw no algae increase as feared and like it got when I added flourish.
The Val seems to be recovering some.
The crypts still are doing great
Some java fern that was dormant has started to grow again.
I’ve cut back feeding quite a bit too at this point. I now feed BH once a day and about a 1/4 teaspoon of dry food drop for the cories.
Between the reduced feeding and WL in sump, I have seen lower nitrate in water even with extending WC.
They continue to spawn.


108196108197108198

[Jack L]

just a quick update:
not much has changed, i'm still running the water lettuce in the sump.
you can see the green spot algae on the glass, the lines are where i do WC to, apparently it can't handle air long.
i still feed 1x a day with a flake and BH mix, then the dry pellets on the timer and some of Al's FDBW as a treat from time to time. its chugging along. i've really stretched out my WC now, i think the lower feeding levels is the biggest reason i can do that.
111193

[two utes]

Looking great Jack :thumbsup:

[Jack L]

Thanks Joe

i noticed when looking at the last 2 updates, how LITTLE change there has been in 3 months. doesn't even look like the plants grew. oh well, i wanted less maintenance, got it. the fish still do spawn.

couple other updates:
-i run the temp at 79 now, and they are fine
-when i do WC, i heat up the water, the cold drop killed the neons, but again, the Discus don't care
-i put some water lettuce up in the display tank to see it it takes hold there. the LED plant light over the sump grows some funky algae !
-the WL in sump grows and i toss it, that might be why the plants in display tank have held steady, the nutrients are going to the WL instead.

[Ryan925]

Thanks Joe

i noticed when looking at the last 2 updates, how LITTLE change there has been in 3 months. doesn't even look like the plants grew. oh well, i wanted less maintenance, got it. the fish still do spawn.

couple other updates:
-i run the temp at 79 now, and they are fine
-when i do WC, i heat up the water, the cold drop killed the neons, but again, the Discus don't care
-i put some water lettuce up in the display tank to see it it takes hold there. the LED plant light over the sump grows some funky algae !
-the WL in sump grows and i toss it, that might be why the plants in display tank have held steady, the nutrients are going to the WL instead.

Just curious to the reasoning behind dropping the tank to 79?

[Jack L]

I was curious if they really needed to be that high for these domestic ones.
the heater eats the most $ so i dropped it and they haven't acted any different at all. still spawn, still eat great, so they don't seem to need the extra heat. i'm also not trying to grow them anymore

and at 80+ the sump gets bacteria film on it, and much over 80, the ottos suffered.

[Ryan925]

I was curious if they really needed to be that high for these domestic ones.
the heater eats the most $ so i dropped it and they haven't acted any different at all. still spawn, still eat great, so they don't seem to need the extra heat. i'm also not trying to grow them anymore

and at 80+ the sump gets bacteria film on it, and much over 80, the ottos suffered.

Gotcha. Was just curious. Will be interested to see how it works out long term

[Jack L]

Gotcha. Was just curious. Will be interested to see how it works out long term

NP, i still plan to do updates from time to time and will try to remember to include the temp setting. but after a couple months, it seems fine.

[Ryan925]

NP, i still plan to do updates from time to time and will try to remember to include the temp setting. but after a couple months, it seems fine.

If it's been a couple months would have to imagine they are fine. Fish look great. Are you putting more focus into the plants now ?

[Jack L]

If it's been a couple months would have to imagine they are fine. Fish look great. Are you putting more focus into the plants now ?

thanks, yeah they seem to be doing well, and are being fed a FRACTION of what i used to feed too when growing them. they get fed 1x a day now. they don't bother with the sinking pellets on the auto feeder.

for the past several months i've just been in watching mode.

i would like the val to take off. it did great for a while, but after i moved it and the sag, neither ever recovered to what it was, and most all the stems i moved died. but then when they do take off, after i put in some DIY root tabs normally, then i have to spend time cutting them. i've never found a good background plant that grows and stops, it always keeps growing too much.

i've been debating removing the Water Lettuce from the sump, i'm thinking its stunting the display tank plants, I know there are always many variables, however it does seem they slowed down when i added the WL.

[AquaWoman]

This was really interesting to read and see how you were able to grow these beautiful fish in a planted tank.
Now that the fish are adults and the tank is well established, how often are doing water changes?
I love these natural looking tanks and to me they are worth every extra effort. Just curious, but now that you've accomplished (give or take) the tank you wanted, what if anything would you do differently if you had it to do over again?
Thanks for sharing.

[Jack L]

This was really interesting to read and see how you were able to grow these beautiful fish in a planted tank.
Now that the fish are adults and the tank is well established, how often are doing water changes?
I love these natural looking tanks and to me they are worth every extra effort. Just curious, but now that you've accomplished (give or take) the tank you wanted, what if anything would you do differently if you had it to do over again?
Thanks for sharing.

thanks, glad you liked it.
off top of head:
1. i would not grow out in planted tank again, i've done it before, but it just makes things more complicated
2. i would start with poret in sump
3. i would not be lazy and skip q-tank on additions (introduce ICH this way, careless i know)
4. i would do a bigger tank
5. i'd prolly buy all red alenquers
my WC has really dropped off after i reduced feeding to 1x a day of BH. its not a set schedule anymore. at the peak of mess/growing, it was daily with gravel vac. now several days pass or if i'm on vac for a week, its fine when i return.

[Surf&turf]

Just curious why everyone feeds BH, that's not a normal food they would get in the wild, Isn't black worms enough to make them grow along with pellets or flakes?

[Surf&turf]

Your system looks awesome by the way!!!

[Jack L]

Just curious why everyone feeds BH, that's not a normal food they would get in the wild, Isn't black worms enough to make them grow along with pellets or flakes?

you don't have to feed BH. i do because it is inexpensive if you DIY and it seems to grow them out nice. flake only doesn't work for me, it all goes over the overflow. i just simply mix BH and Flake, and stick it to the glass. they peck at it there, and when it falls, they slowly finish it. Discus aren't fast eaters. People grow them out on all kinds of things. 20 year ago the experts told me to do it, and it worked then too : )

[Surf&turf]

Thanks for the info!!

[Neptune]

thanks, yeah they seem to be doing well, and are being fed a FRACTION of what i used to feed too when growing them. they get fed 1x a day now. they don't bother with the sinking pellets on the auto feeder.

for the past several months i've just been in watching mode.

i would like the val to take off. it did great for a while, but after i moved it and the sag, neither ever recovered to what it was, and most all the stems i moved died. but then when they do take off, after i put in some DIY root tabs normally, then i have to spend time cutting them. i've never found a good background plant that grows and stops, it always keeps growing too much.

i've been debating removing the Water Lettuce from the sump, i'm thinking its stunting the display tank plants, I know there are always many variables, however it does seem they slowed down when i added the WL.

Just my experience with WL...I have a small outdoor goldfish pond. As soon as it turns green I throw in WL and almost overnight it is crystal clear and remains that way. The root systems of the WL get MASSIVE.

I gotta believe that WL is sucking up the nutrients and outcompeting even the algae!

After three months your Crypts should be settled in and attempting to take over the tank!

[AquaWoman]

thanks, glad you liked it.
off top of head:
1. i would not grow out in planted tank again, i've done it before, but it just makes things more complicated
2. i would start with poret in sump
3. i would not be lazy and skip q-tank on additions (introduce ICH this way, careless i know)
4. i would do a bigger tank
5. i'd prolly buy all red alenquers
my WC has really dropped off after i reduced feeding to 1x a day of BH. its not a set schedule anymore. at the peak of mess/growing, it was daily with gravel vac. now several days pass or if i'm on vac for a week, its fine when i return.

Thanks! I'm going to have to see if I can find it, but I recall reading one of the early Discus guys kept his tanks at lower temps too. It's in one of the older books on Discus. I'd like to try Poret in my filters. People swear by that stuff.

[Jack L]

And so it goes. About the time you think you have it sorted out, they turn dark and belly up. Its quite sad actually, raised them from dime size.
I've raised the temperature, I've remove the water lettuce from sump, increased frequency of WC. No change, so they are currently on a course or metro BH food. I've lost two of them since last post. I'm not sure what is at play. From what i can read/tell, its bacterial, popeye is the most obvious symptom, the Blue diamonds are in a bad way, while the rest fish are fine, even spawning. one of my favorite Blues has a lesion/HITH i've upped my WC, but they are still not doing well. they are 6 days into the medicated food. i expected more than 3 years out of them.

[Naturegirl]

Such a nice tank and it really gave me hope for my planted tank with Discus. Until that last entry. I'm so sorry and heartbroken for you. Hope everyone else pulls through this for you.:(

[Jack L]

Just my experience with WL...I have a small outdoor goldfish pond. As soon as it turns green I throw in WL and almost overnight it is crystal clear and remains that way. The root systems of the WL get MASSIVE.

I gotta believe that WL is sucking up the nutrients and outcompeting even the algae!

After three months your Crypts should be settled in and attempting to take over the tank!

thanks for info Neptune, i've ditched it. it was making a mess in my sump, started growing BGA, there was even a small plague of glass worms that survived a clorox dip. they were wily, would hide when i search with a flashlight....nature is amazing. anyway, it added to maintenance, and didn't seem to help. right now crypts are holding steady, but i've notice the trident java fern is continuing to do well.

[Jack L]

Since this is a tank log...not going to fakebook/highlight reel it.
Fella went from great to a bit dark over a day or two, then overnight went to bent body/pigment loss,bulging eye/swollen upper-body overnight. meanwhile others are doing fine.
i put it down.
he was the second. i think its bacterial as i see some signs of lateral line and/or hole in the head. and i don't know why, but the blue diamonds seem to be the ones more susceptible
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[Jack L]

Such a nice tank and it really gave me hope for my planted tank with Discus. Until that last entry. I'm so sorry and heartbroken for you. Hope everyone else pulls through this for you.:(

thanks. you can do it, just make time to keep up with it. maintaining planted is more demanding than BB.

[Jack L]

My current theory is that my DIY fertilizers leached into the water, combined with a decrease in WC along with EI dosing has allowed the nitrates to climb. They were off the charts high, i fact i've never seen them so high. I can’t find a definite answer if fertilizer nitrate is as bad as BB generated nitrate, but my hunch is that is it. With EI dosing when i did a WC, i then followed by dumping a more ferts in, i guess maybe adding back the problem.

The remaining ones are eating the metro laced BH great, but I can’t see that it has made any real difference. So when that course ends I’ll do some research on using kyamicin or not. But in any case, I’m done with DIY ferts and EI dosing until I see the water parameters become more favorable.

[Ryan925]

My current theory is that my DIY fertilizers leached into the water, combined with a decrease in WC along with EI dosing has allowed the nitrates to climb. They were off the charts high, i fact i've never seen them so high. I can’t find a definite answer if fertilizer nitrate is as bad as BB generated nitrate, but my hunch is that is it. With EI dosing when i did a WC, i then followed by dumping a more ferts in, i guess maybe adding back the problem.

The remaining ones are eating the metro laced BH great, but I can’t see that it has made any real difference. So when that course ends I’ll do some research on using kyamicin or not. But in any case, I’m done with DIY ferts and EI dosing until I see the water parameters become more favorable.

When mine was planted I was using the Greenleaf pps pro method. Had no issues. It's similar to EI but EI wants you doing a weekly wc. With pps pro you could do daily change and not have negative effects. It's super cheap and super easy. Dosing is the same everyday. Amount depends on lighting and plants.

I use it now in my planted all though my discus tank is no longer planted.

[Jack L]

No more casualties. I could see no healing correlated to the metro. I did 2 courses of it. Some of the holes are healing, but it is slowly, and it continued at a rate similar to before and during metro use.

I’ve removed the bunch of matrix from the sump. I added it hoping I would see a drop in nitrates, I never did, all that I saw was lots and lots of mulm. Sump mulm: depending on what you read, it does everything from cause nitrates to remove them, such is the internet. I decided to take it out.

I read that HLLE could be nutrient issue too; I soaked my BH/flake mix with Zoe liquid vitamin per instructions on bottle.

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[jmf3460]

jack, do you run carbon or a similar product?

[Jack L]

jack, do you run carbon or a similar product?

no carbon, purigen bags in sump though.

[jmf3460]

jack, read my thread here, purigen has the same effect as carbon

now this is up for debate but I just thought I would offer a possible reason for the holes, and if it is then the metro wont do anything.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?129433-Long-Term-Carbon-Use&highlight=

[Jack L]

jack, read my thread here, purigen has the same effect as carbon

now this is up for debate but I just thought I would offer a possible reason for the holes, and if it is then the metro wont do anything.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?129433-Long-Term-Carbon-Use&highlight=

purigen is now out. i never saw it do anything for Nitrates, it did polish water but that effect quickly diminished. plus it is annoying to clean, so i'm going to run without it for a while as i'm interested in less, not more maintenance. that am i'm experimenting with the AFS basket.

your post you mentioned holes come on fast, i noticed the same thing seemed almost overnight. but i have seen improvement with better husbandry and no more extra ferts.

[Jack L]

the HLLE continues to be a problem. i haven't found a definitive guide to cure it or its causes, seems metro is the most recommended med.

I've tried metro and kanaplex, added zoe vitamins and vita chem to food. doesn't seem to matter. not all of them have it, but some are getting bad now.

done different rounds and a break in between.

currently i'm feeding bh mixed with metro and cyaminic and liquid vitamin, zoe and vitachem. feeding it twice a day at dosage 2x the label.
its been about 7 days and see nothing different.

since last post, my heater got stuck on and wiped out school of 50 neons, and about 20 cories. i've now bought one with an audible alarm.

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[Swedgin]

I’ve had a similar situation with one of my heckels some time ago, almost as bad as yours. treated the whole tank with API general cure (metro) and started adding discus trace minerals to the water, upped the water changes, and added vitamins as you are doing to the food. Completely closed now, the fish looks like new. In my case I’m very certain the reason was mineral and vitamin deficiency due to a very one sided nutrition, FDBW all day every day.

Also on the matrix, I have pumice in all my filtration for all tanks and honestly have no issues with nitrates or anything else. In the end it’s just porous rubble, Seachem lay it on a bit thick with their claims in my opinion.

Either way, best of luck with this fella, once you notice some healing I’m sure there’s a good chance for recovery.

[Jack L]

I’ve had a similar situation with one of my heckels some time ago, almost as bad as yours. treated the whole tank with API general cure (metro) and started adding discus trace minerals to the water, upped the water changes, and added vitamins as you are doing to the food. Completely closed now, the fish looks like new. In my case I’m very certain the reason was mineral and vitamin deficiency due to a very one sided nutrition, FDBW all day every day.

Also on the matrix, I have pumice in all my filtration for all tanks and honestly have no issues with nitrates or anything else. In the end it’s just porous rubble, Seachem lay it on a bit thick with their claims in my opinion.

Either way, best of luck with this fella, once you notice some healing I’m sure there’s a good chance for recovery.

Hi Swedgin, thanks for feedback.
I took out the matrix as it was not living up to its claims in nitrate reduction, i got both sizes and had it in different flow rate zones, gave it over a year. lava rock would be the same i agree, just less marketing. it was also making a LOT of mulm, so i am just a relying on the poret foam now.

which now that i'm thinking of it, i could probably take that out too. i had nitrates with an empty sump, so there was enough BB without any extras in sump. just the prefilter on the pump, and a sock. And thinking back on it, when i first went to poret instead of socks(to minimize sump maintenance) someone on here warned me that i'd need to keep the foam cleaned or have Nitrate issues. maybe that is just what has happened. the foam has grown heavy with mulm.

[Jack L]

sept 2018 update
-HLLE seems to be on the mend. i tried various meds, and vitamins. but i think the thing that did it was ken's metro flake. i just mixed it with egg as a binder. i fed them a couple ounces of that, and following that 2 week feeding (give or take) it seemed to revers course. SLOWLY though.
i've also increased the volume of WC.

plants: i've stopped all the ferts and additives. i just use tap water now. and due to more WC, its less and less RO in the mix. plants are doing great. i've just put in some Balansae, hoping they fill in the back. the sag and val never recovered moving.

one of the Discus, is slowly wasting away, hardly eats, always hides, maybe the courses of meds took a toll.
in the photo, you can see the one with HLLE is doing better. that was the one in pic before. the little guy in the photo was and is a defect, but he is still going. has some holes. but even before that, you can almost see through it like a glass cat, but more translucent.
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[Jack L]

tank Sept 2018
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[Jack L]

Dec 2018

tank is about the same as far as plants

Discus: lost 2 of the 3 remaining blue diamonds.

while doing a WC, i was trying to change more water than i had aged and warmed up. i underestimated the affect of the cold water from winter weather. the temp dropped to the 70s for a few hours, and the next morning the blue diamonds that had a bit of cloudy eye went to pretty bad pop-eye.

in a warm qtank with meds, i was able to save 1. its eyes are normal sized, but show damage from the pop-eye, sort of a crackled look.

the aggression dynamics have change a lot in main tank without as many in there.
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[Jack L]

Sept 2019
the remaining discus are doing fine. no more HLLE, though some spots that healed look like a hole.

it seems the biggest difference was removing the poret foam filters. they would become loaded with mulm, my nitrates were uncontrollable no matter the amount of WC. i removed 3rd panel, and nitrates dropped, then the 2 panel filled and nitrates climbed. i've left the first panel, i think is 10ppm. the shrimp seem to keep i clean. i'm now using disposable filter media instead of the 20 and 30 ppi panels. my nitrates are staying lower then they ever have been, and fish are doing better.

[Mando]

Sept 2019
the remaining discus are doing fine. no more HLLE, though some spots that healed look like a hole.

it seems the biggest difference was removing the poret foam filters. they would become loaded with mulm, my nitrates were uncontrollable no matter the amount of WC. i removed 3rd panel, and nitrates dropped, then the 2 panel filled and nitrates climbed. i've left the first panel, i think is 10ppm. the shrimp seem to keep i clean. i'm now using disposable filter media instead of the 20 and 30 ppi panels. my nitrates are staying lower then they ever have been, and fish are doing better.

How often did you clean your Poret filters? I currently have 4 stages in my sump but no issues with nitrates. It's unfortunate what happened to your tank. I read page 1 to now and it was an interesting journey.

incredible how big your fish got in a planted tank and in just 5 months! kudos for a job well done.

[Jack L]

How often did you clean your Poret filters? I currently have 4 stages in my sump but no issues with nitrates. It's unfortunate what happened to your tank. I read page 1 to now and it was an interesting journey.

incredible how big your fish got in a planted tank and in just 5 months! kudos for a job well done.

i cleaned them when they plugged enough to cause water flow issues, from memory every few months. i also didn't enjoy cleaning them. the smack on the driveway worked, but would get muck all over me. in a bucket and squeeze took a long time.