Sick Fish - Culminaris? Need help ID...another fish getting sick

[kalare]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Sorry, this might be a bit long. The fish are stunted, I bought them unknowledgeable about such things from a local store and they all had pinched foreheads. Have had them around two years, they still grew and I am attached to them. They are 4 Stendker Tefe.

I recently moved from LA to SF Bay area, drove the fish, all made it fine. This was in end of June. Had the fish in a tank for around 2 weeks, and unfortunately could only do two water changes in that time. They were lightly fed. Moved them into their permanent home and they all seemed fine for a week or so when one started developing these white marks (i'll put a picture below of a much more advanced stage) that looked like they follow the scales...kinda of like fuzzy lightining. The fish also had white poop, that during treatment turned pink and remains pinkish. The one fish then started developing a head lesion and white pimples at the base of the anal fin. This fish was moved into a 20g quarantine and has gotten slowly progressively worse (still barely alive) for around 6-8 weeks. The fish now stays at the surface with a bent body and fast respiration...this fish will not make it and I will euthanize it soon even though I hate doing such things...

Not yesterday I noticed a NEW fish starting to show symptoms. This is in the main display...all equipment is separate from the Q tank. 3 days ago I did an H202 treatment in the display to get rid of algae, all the fish seemed fine and not overly stressed out...perhaps this triggered something? This fish still eats vigorously.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

See above. The white fuzzy lightning marks on the body, started to spread, then during treatment, went away and the areas of the skin just turned a greyish color. I don't know if the treatment was working or if the disease was progressing.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

OK...I've had fish with flagellates before, so I saw white poop, and did 500mg metro/10g for 8 days.
Waited 2-3 days and it didn't help. Because of the white marks on the outside of the fish, I then tried quick cure for 3 days, which I have used successfully in the past for chilodonella, and looked similar to me. This didn't help.
At this point, the fish was still eating and I thought, this had to be bacterial, fed the fish AngelPlus medicated Kanamycin flake for 8 days or so...didn't help.
Fish stopped eating, waited 4-5 days with 1tbsp salt/gallon in water. Fish lost all color and got very dark. Treated for 10 days with Furan2 + kanamycin in water...this is when the "fuzzy lightning" that had gotten much worse (see photo below) went away and large areas of the skin around those "lightning" areas just turned light greyish. Stopped treatment at 10 days...fish still has lesions, still has skin issues. It's been around 1.5 weeks or so since no treatment, I had salt in the water and that has been water changed out.

I've been changing 25-30% of water every day since in the Q tank.


In the main tank, I have already fed them exclusively AngelsPlus Kanamycin food for 10 days, cause I didn't want them to get the same thing. Treatment with food ended 1-2 weeks ago.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Main tank with the sick fish, 48g, planted display with 3 other discus. No other fish.


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Between 25-50% every day...sometimes I go every other day since they're full grown and in a planted tank.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Planted, tank has been up since June, but all the filter and everything just transferred up from the tank in LA that has been running 2 years. Subtrate is fluorite, 1 - 1.5" deep and vacuumed lightly every water change.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

No, straight tap, no pH swing.

8. Parameters and water source;


Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.



- temp 80F

- ph 6.2 (with CO2)

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 5-10ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- municipal water __X__ dKh 3


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Maybe some plants, I usually dip these in H2O2 dip before adding to tank...it's possible I forgot

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Fish has the white lines or what I'm calling "fuzzy lightning" in all the photos, but easier to see in the angled shot from the rear.

These pictures are a week or so old. The fish currently looks even more horrible as described above...I can get photos if anyone wants.

89513895148951589516

The last shot is the fish I just noticed yesterday developing similar markings! I'm very worried about this fish.
89517



Please help if possible! Is there some way that after I euthanize my fish I can figure out what it is without a gnarly 500 dollar electronic microscope? I have no experience in fish autopsies...

[Eddie]

You've been treating the fish quite a bit. The dark fish in the pictures appears severely stressed. The lines you are referring to is the build up of the fishes slimecoat. This is from an external irritation, whether it be bugs or chemicals.

If the fish are dealing with an external issue, the antibiotic food probably won't have any major effect. I would hate to put the fish through any more chemical treatments at this point aside from a salt dip treatment followed by isolation.

Maybe I missed it but what water conditioner do you use to condition the water when adding the tap?

[kalare]

The darkened fish is definitely beyond saving at this point, and is in Q.

The lighter fish is still I the main tank and I only noticed the problem yesterday. Nobody is receiving any more medication, food or in water at this stage. The lighter fish has had NO meds in water, only the medicated food several weeks ago.

Water conditioner is Prime.

[Eddie]

If the other fish has had no treatment at all, then the issue will need to be resolved in the main tank. More than likely, as I mentioned, it's an external parasite but that's just an educated guess. I would treat with either quick cure or pp and follow up with an antibiotic if there is no improvement. I would use furan-2.

Now, the issue is in the main tank. Treating in a planted show tank is less than ideal. It's best to treat the affected fish in a hospital tank and I'd strip down the main tank and start over, sterilizing everything. It's a lot of work but you don't want the issue to return.

My 2 cents.

Eddie

[kalare]

Thanks Eddie. I have already treated the first fish with Quick Cure however, and that didn't see to help. Could the med have been out of date or something...I didn't think formalin went out of date. I've also already used furan 2 on the first sick fish with no improvement. Double first dose with 25% change every day for10 days, with kanamycin.

I'm just uneasy about medicating the newly sick fish with medications that didn't seem to work he first time.

Is a PP dip very hard on the fish?

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there,

I have this niggling feeling that there might be more going on than illness. Since you just made the move with the fish and got them back into their tank, can you lay out the parameters, timeline for the move, etc? How long were the filters offline before you got them up and running again? What about the substrate, did you leave it without filtration and reuse it or did you put in new substrate? There are a lot of little things that could be affecting your water quality in the tank and that would stress them out, which can cause a flare up of ectoparasites (which leads to the production of a thick slime coat that looks like the pics you provided).

Oh and what size is the main tank and how many discus are in the main tank?

[kalare]

Move was made in June, from LA to SF Bay Area, 6-7 hour drive in buckets with sponge filters and airstone.

Canister filter from original tank was left wet, and media reused at new temporary tank along with sponge filters (cleaned) from the buckets.

Fish were in temp tank for 1.5-2 wks. Water changed twice, low feeding.

Main tank resetup with new gravel, filters transferred over. Daily water changes. 4 discus in 90p (50g). No other fish.

Oh, also I know 4 discus isn't recommended...used to have 5, one jumped over a year ago. The remaining 4 got along very well...well, remaining 3 now since the first sick fish is sadly a goner.

Thanks everyone for their input btw!

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie. I have already treated the first fish with Quick Cure however, and that didn't see to help. Could the med have been out of date or something...I didn't think formalin went out of date. I've also already used furan 2 on the first sick fish with no improvement. Double first dose with 25% change every day for10 days, with kanamycin.

I'm just uneasy about medicating the newly sick fish with medications that didn't seem to work he first time.

Is a PP dip very hard on the fish?

PP baths can be rough on the fish and they require constant monitoring throughout treatment in the event you need to neutralize the chemical.

Quick Cure can actually expire. It should be stored appropriately. How, exactly, did you use quick cure initially? Were the lights left off, temps low and good aeration added to the water?

You could try a salt dip which would be less aggressive.

Another combination for antibiotics that works well is furan-2 and neomycin.

[kalare]

PP baths can be rough on the fish and they require constant monitoring throughout treatment in the event you need to neutralize the chemical.

Quick Cure can actually expire. It should be stored appropriately. How, exactly, did you use quick cure initially? Were the lights left off, temps low and good aeration added to the water?

You could try a salt dip which would be less aggressive.

Another combination for antibiotics that works well is furan-2 and neomycin.

Quick Cure was not used with lights off (should I be covering the tank, or lights off good enough?). Was used for 3 days @ 1 drop/gallon, 25% change in between each treatment. Temp was not lowered...probably around 81. Good current.

[kalare]

Ok,

Just tried PP 4 hour bath, cleaned 20g tank with bleach, all the tubing, sponge filter, powerhead, dried it out. Placed around 8 gallons of display tank water in the 20g, and rest new water from the tap, added small amount of prime and let it sit overnight, 16 hours or so. Added PP, was nice and pink for 5 minutes, plopped my fish in the tank, 5 minutes later, getting really dark brown. SO...either there was a ton of organic matter in my display tank water (possible I guess since it's a planted tank) or the prime still affected it after 16 hours.

Now, I want to end the treatment (since it's brown so fast) change 80% of the water and let the fish sit for a day. My worry is this...if I prime the new water, will it just make the treatment tomorrow brown again? How does one go about changing the water in a PP treatment tank?

...perhaps I should start a new thread to get more answers...I worry nobody will look at this old one.

Thanks!

[Second Hand Pat]

Could be a combo of organics in the tank water and/or prime. I see Eddie suggested a salt dip. Have you considered that?

How did you do the furan 2 treatment? four days as suggested on the container?
Pat

[kalare]

I did the Furan-2 treatment with a double dose on the first day, followed by 8 or 9 consecutive days, while dosing kanamycin at the same time. 25% WC each day. I'm very uneasy about trying Furan-2 again since that treatment seemed to have no effect.

I did salt bath on the first fish for over a week, with no noticeable difference. I've read of several people battling unknown disease with only PP being the remedy that helped their fish out, so I figured since Eddie suggested maybe PP bath, I'd try it. Now I'm just confused as to how to do water changes without using Prime and doing a PP bath or two as needed. I know I could age the water 24hr, but that does nothing to chloramines. How do you all go about doing WC with PP treatment?

[Len]

Two things really jump out art me here. The first is the fact that you had been using Quick cure which contains formalin. Adding PP to that water is an extreme NO NO. The two chemicals have a violent reaction, can explode under the right circumstances and is certainly not going to do wonders for the fish. The second thing is that if you are using prime in the water it will neutralize the PP turning the water brown almost instantly which you saw.

In any event, as Eddie had pointed out a salt bath would be less aggressive and would have been the preferred treatment.

[Second Hand Pat]

I did the Furan-2 treatment with a double dose on the first day, followed by 8 or 9 consecutive days, while dosing kanamycin at the same time. 25% WC each day. I'm very uneasy about trying Furan-2 again since that treatment seemed to have no effect.

I did salt bath on the first fish for over a week, with no noticeable difference. I've read of several people battling unknown disease with only PP being the remedy that helped their fish out, so I figured since Eddie suggested maybe PP bath, I'd try it. Now I'm just confused as to how to do water changes without using Prime and doing a PP bath or two as needed. I know I could age the water 24hr, but that does nothing to chloramines. How do you all go about doing WC with PP treatment?

Do you do your salt dip like this http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip?

On the PP I would think you would need to age the water 24 hours after adding prime but not sure about this as I do not need to use it.
Pat

[kalare]

Do you do your salt dip like this http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip?

On the PP I would think you would need to age the water 24 hours after adding prime but not sure about this as I do not need to use it.
Pat

Salt bath was performed using 1tbsp/gal of water continuously for 5 days, no dips were performed.

I have not used PP in any water containing formalin. I always add carbon to filters for a day after completing treatments, and the PP was used in a freshly cleaned Q tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

A salt dip is a bit different. Perhaps this fish needs a rest. It has had a lot throw at it.
Pat

[kalare]

Hi Pat,

I may try a salt dip after doing a PP bath or two (of course waiting 4-5 days before doing so). Just to be clear, there are two fish, one that has had a round of medications (with rests inbetween) that I put down several weeks ago after a 2 month long battle, and the second fish, that has only had one treatment of Quick Cure and nothing else. Quick Cure ended a week ago, and I just tried a PP bath on it in a newly cleaned Q tank, where it sits now in clean water.

Since I can't change water without using Prime, and I have no RO (the water here comes out with 3dkh and around 7.5 pH and low tds, so I never had a need), I just did a color test with known pp concentration of 2ppm and kept adding PP till I got that color in the Prime treated tank. Fish is looking fine after the 4 hour bath yesterday with 50% WC afterwards. Still eats out of my hand. Still has a bit of a slime coat, will do another treatment today and see how it goes.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi kalare,

I wanted to point something out about Quick Cure, it contains Malachite Green and Formalin. Prime will neutralize Formalin (like it does with PP) making your Quick Cure treatment a mote point. Len is right, mixing Formalin and PP is a bad thing, not that you did it but a good concern and worth noting to readers of this thread.

Pat

[kalare]

Hi kalare,

I wanted to point something out about Quick Cure, it contains Malachite Green and Formalin. Prime will neutralize Formalin (like it does with PP) making your Quick Cure treatment a mote point. Len is right, mixing Formalin and PP is a bad thing, not that you did it but a good concern and worth noting to readers of this thread.

Pat

Wow...interesting point! I never thought about it but it makes sense. A reducer and oxidizer...Prime and Formalin. I wonder if there is some other treatment that will remove chloromines and will allow water changes without interacting with the medications?

How does everyone else go about it, RO water only?

[Len]

An HMA filter (R/O filter minus the membrane in essence) will do that job nicely.