Drip System.

[CANAMONSTER]

So I know alot of the pros don't use the drip System as a water change option but is it really that far in efficiency for growing Discus to there full size?

[Eddie]

The problem really relies in cleanliness. Sure the water is fresh but the tank gets filthy and complete wipe downs are routinely required. Complete tank draining and filling is the best method to keep things under control.

[CANAMONSTER]

The problem really relies in cleanliness. Sure the water is fresh but the tank gets filthy and complete wipe downs are routinely required. Complete tank draining and filling is the best method to keep things under control.

Never understand what is to be wiped off on the glass? Isn't it just Beneficial Bacteria and maybe some algae?

[CANAMONSTER]

So a drip could never compare to a remove then replace WC. Thanks for the opinions!

[Eddie]

Never understand what is to be wiped off on the glass? Isn't it just Beneficial Bacteria and maybe some algae?

Discus produce excessive slime, more than most fish and it will build up/collect on everything. You definitely don't have to wipe anything but when problems begin to develop, it may be the source. Bacteria belong in the filter media.

[DJW]

I have to admit there is something appealing and tempting about the idea of a continuous drip or stream water replacement system. And theoretically it can be done as long as the tank is kept clean as Eddie has said. The problem is that translating the attractive theory into actual practice is a real PITA. I could write a small book describing all the efforts I put into it.

In the end I decided that it was better to focus my creative energy on clever ways to make plain old water changes easier, and to spend my money on tanks and fish rather than on gadgets.

[CANAMONSTER]

I have to admit there is something appealing and tempting about the idea of a continuous drip or stream water replacement system. And theoretically it can be done as long as the tank is kept clean as Eddie has said. The problem is that translating the attractive theory into actual practice is a real PITA. I could write a small book describing all the efforts I put into it.

In the end I decided that it was better to focus my creative energy on clever ways to make plain old water changes easier, and to spend my money on tanks and fish rather than on gadgets.

Well, drill a hole in a sump as an overflow drain and run a water line in to the tank or sump with supply water. Really is simple.

Now I will give an example. If you fill a tank with fresh dechlorinated water, no fish yet. Then add a drip ( or Stream) so that mathematically every 24 hrs you have added the same volume of water (100%) As what drained out . That water has not changed chemically at all. Add fish and feed things change Nitrates start to rise or do they stay very low and consistent every day? Once or twice a week you can do a water change and a vacume.

So what I'm saying is that the water should never really change only from the build up of physical waste of the fish. Even if you removed just the waste every day and not the water wouldn't this be a plus?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Mike, the problem with a drip system is you are adding new water with old so in a days time you will not remove all the old water. You will only diluted the new water with the old water so you do not get a 100% water change. There is an article in the SimplyDiscus library you might find interesting http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml.
Pat

[CANAMONSTER]

Hi Mike, the problem with a drip system is you are adding new water with old so in a days time you will not remove all the old water. You will only diluted the new water with the old water so you do not get a 100% water change. There is an article in the SimplyDiscus library you might find interesting http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml.
Pat

Thanks, I guess I know what your saying, dilution will not amount to complete new water. Thank you for the link!

[Filip]

It would be good if you can use this system for automatic WCs instead of constant drip.
That would help you cheat on manual maintenance some days when you have no Time or energy for manual Wc.

[DJW]

The problem is not just the large amount of wastewater it takes to reach an equivalent change of water, and your increased water bill, its the source water itself. It has chlorine, chloramine, CO2 & pH swing, possibly nitrates... chances are you can't just start squirting tap water into the tank all day. This has been endlessly debated by the way, as you will see in past threads.

[afriend]

Never understand what is to be wiped off on the glass? Isn't it just Beneficial Bacteria and maybe some algae?

Algae does form on the glass, however that's not all that forms on the glass. It's made up of decomposing organic compounds that come from the food placed in the tank. This material feeds pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) and also results in compounds that are toxic to the fish. Some of the bacteria are beneficial, but not all. It also forms on the tank bottom and everything else in the tank. If you have something that has been in the tank for awhile, take it out and give it the "sniff test" by holding it close to your nose. The foul smell is decomposing organic compounds. Decomposition is a common process in nature as evident by the smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Suggest reading the following post:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important

This explains the decomposition process and why it is necessary to remove this material from the tank.

[CANAMONSTER]

Interesting. I guess Devil is in the detail with Discus! Thanks for all the advice. I'm looking forward to getting my half dozen! Little nervous about the time that's needed to Discus but I'm the type of person that you do it proper or not at all.

[CANAMONSTER]

Great Forum by the way!

[afriend]

So I know alot of the pros don't use the drip System as a water change option but is it really that far in efficiency for growing Discus to there full size?

The answer to this question depends on what the assumptions are. That's because there is more to cleaning a tank than just changing water. If the discussion is based just on water change alone, then the following link is helpful in comparing the efficiency between the two methods:

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

Here's some representative data from the above link for a 100 g tank (rounded to the nearest gallon).

10g drip results in 10g replaced
20g drip results in 18g replaced
35g drip results in 30g replaced
70g drip results in 50g replaced
95g drip results in 61g replaced

Thus if one is willing to accept a decrease in efficiency then the drip system can be utilized to accomplish the same benefit proving that other tank maintenance is also performed. There are also other considerations such as treating the new water.

A clean tank depends on more than just water change. It is also important to remove the uneaten food and feces at the bottom of the tank. The drip method does nothing to accomplish this while the displacement method accomplishes both at the same time (assuming its done in the proper manner). It is also important to perform other tasks such as wiping down the glass and cleaning other objects in the tank.

Assuming that a tank has an overflow pipe, the drip method can result in much less work. For example, suppose one has a 100g tank and it is desired to replace 30g daily. First remove the uneaten food and feces by syphoning 5g off the tank bottom. Then set up the drip method to place 35g of new water in the tank over a 24 hour period. This new water does not have to be preheated since the tank heater can do the job. Removing 5g of old water each day is considerably easier than handling and heating 30g each day.

[afriend]

Interesting. I guess Devil is in the detail with Discus! Thanks for all the advice. I'm looking forward to getting my half dozen! Little nervous about the time that's needed to Discus but I'm the type of person that you do it proper or not at all.

I don't know how much research you have done on keeping discus, so please excuse me if you already know the following. It is much harder to raise juvenile fish than adults. Thus my recommendation is to begin with adults (5 inch and over). Adults are much more tolerant of water conditions because their immune system is more developed. Also, it is very important to start with healthy fish. My recommendation is to purchase them from one of the suppliers in the sponsors list of the Simply Discus forum.

Please don't make the same mistakes I made when I first started. Spend allot of time researching the SD forum before jumping in.

[CANAMONSTER]

I don't know how much research you have done on keeping discus, so please excuse me if you already know the following. It is much harder to raise juvenile fish than adults. Thus my recommendation is to begin with adults (5 inch and over). Adults are much more tolerant of water conditions because their immune system is more developed. Also, it is very important to start with healthy fish. My recommendation is to purchase them from one of the suppliers in the sponsors list of the Simply Discus forum.

Please don't make the same mistakes I made when I first started. Spend allot of time researching the SD forum before jumping in.

Thank you for the post. I see what you mean about the Drip. I will definitely be getting 4 inchers in stead of 2 inchers. I'll see if I could get larger.

It's hard to imagine that all you Discus keepers that grow big beautiful Discus can also manage a family house hold lol.

[Hart24601]

The answer to this question depends on what the assumptions are. That's because there is more to cleaning a tank than just changing water. If the discussion is based just on water change alone, then the following link is helpful in comparing the efficiency between the two methods:

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

Here's some representative data from the above link for a 100 g tank (rounded to the nearest gallon).

10g drip results in 10g replaced
20g drip results in 18g replaced
35g drip results in 30g replaced
70g drip results in 50g replaced
95g drip results in 61g replaced

Thus if one is willing to accept a decrease in efficiency then the drip system can be utilized to accomplish the same benefit proving that other tank maintenance is also performed. There are also other considerations such as treating the new water.

A clean tank depends on more than just water change. It is also important to remove the uneaten food and feces at the bottom of the tank. The drip method does nothing to accomplish this while the displacement method accomplishes both at the same time (assuming its done in the proper manner). It is also important to perform other tasks such as wiping down the glass and cleaning other objects in the tank.

Assuming that a tank has an overflow pipe, the drip method can result in much less work. For example, suppose one has a 100g tank and it is desired to replace 30g daily. First remove the uneaten food and feces by syphoning 5g off the tank bottom. Then set up the drip method to place 35g of new water in the tank over a 24 hour period. This new water does not have to be preheated since the tank heater can do the job. Removing 5g of old water each day is considerably easier than handling and heating 30g each day.

Good summary! Here is the math behind the those figures. I wrote this before, so I will copy and paste, the article is:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/



From that I did the math on my personal tank and system. I use an apex with DOS pump that add 60g per day over 143 pumping periods. Not exactly a drip system, but close!

From that article 1 60% waterchange is a 60% reduction in levels (1-(0.4)^1)=60%.
The apex runs 143 times a day. So that gives (1-(.9958)^143)=54%.
So the single 60% WC is 6% more efficient. However, say you were to break that 60% daily WC into 30% in the morning and 30% in the evening. Still 60% overall, but that drops the efficiency even closer to the AWC levels.


Personally for detritus I just have a small hose and siphon out a couple gallons every night from the bare bottom. I don't have to refill anything because the system will add the water back in. I have as sump that contains a drain line to the floor drain. Drip systems are pretty common for large scale fish breeding operations.