Discus for the Perfectionist - Wattley old book

[Jack L]

you can get it cheap used, sort of a weird book, more of a survey of big names in Ds

items of note
1. all of them pretty much say the #1 most important thing is ........... water quality
2. one of them went on a rant of all the silly "strains" of Ds this was in the 90s...seems worse now
3. pretty varying degrees of concern over water parameters, from close monitoring to not testing it, but consistency was common theme

[Alight]

Got mine when it came out in 1991. Just opened it again because I saw your post. It's amazing the brightness of the colors of the Discus I have now, compared to that in the pictures in the book.

[John_Nicholson]

I don't remember exactly when I got my copy but a long time ago. It was a book I enjoyed.

-john

[Jack L]

Got mine when it came out in 1991. Just opened it again because I saw your post. It's amazing the brightness of the colors of the Discus I have now, compared to that in the pictures in the book.

i noticed the same, but attributed that to predigital photography and publishing quality as even photos of people seemed muted. have a look at p.23 and p.94

[Jack L]

I don't remember exactly when I got my copy but a long time ago. It was a book I enjoyed.

-john

well worth the few bucks used.

i thought it was interesting that 20+ years later same questions/answers are kicked around this board.

plants, meds, food...etc

[Keith Perkins]

well worth the few bucks used.

i thought it was interesting that 20+ years later same questions/answers are kicked around this board.

plants, meds, food...etc

I'd attribute that to new people in the hobby and slow learners. I'm definitely not in the first group so...:shocked2:

[John_Nicholson]

well worth the few bucks used.

i thought it was interesting that 20+ years later same questions/answers are kicked around this board.

plants, meds, food...etc

Yep and every new person that comes in thinks they are the first person to ever think of it....LOL.

-john

[DISCUS STU]

A long time ago when the internet was far, far away...:alien:

At the time it was, and in many respects still is, a very good book and one of a few in the "Jack Wattley" group of books about Discus. As stated above, it was basically a survey of some of the leading Discus "experts" and breeders around. Before the internet this was some of the best information around as the writers and editors were generally more concerned with fact checking, as opposed to some of the stuff on internet, some good, some bad, some ugly. Other sources were the occasional magazine articles, there were a number of magazines back then. And then there was the guy at the lfs or lps who may or may not have know what he was really talking about.

A good book, still worth a look.

[DJW]

Yep and every new person that comes in thinks they are the first person to ever think of it....LOL.

-john

Laughing at myself! I set up a continuous drip system once and thought I was so clever. Later found on the internet that lots of people do it. I'm sure I still have a few more wheels to invent. :idea:

[pitdogg2]

i noticed the same, but attributed that to predigital photography and publishing quality as even photos of people seemed muted. have a look at p.23 and p.94

actually digital can't hold a candle to very good analog photos. It is now getting closer so to speak but still miles from what good film in a top notch camera can do.

[Keith Perkins]

actually digital can't hold a candle to very good analog photos. It is now getting closer so to speak but still miles from what good film in a top notch camera can do.

Que Simon and Garfunkel's song Kodachrome.

[hogan92]

Jack Wattley is in his 90's now and still writes a monthly column in Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine. Of interest to me is his belief that flake foods are so good now that if you can get your discus to accept them, they don't need any other food. He falls short of making any specific recommendations, but says "high quality flake foods". He claims to have done some experiments in the early 2000's and found no difference in growth rates with just flake foods. Interesting....

[John_Nicholson]

The best flake food I know is not sold here int he US but Jack Wattley is their spokesman. Several years ago he had a case of it shipped to my house. While I am not a big fan of feeding flake foods as the main source of protein I will admit it was pretty good stuff. Too bad we cannot get it in this country.

-john

[DJW]

The most memorable passage for me is

"If you begin experiencing a disease problem with any fish go first to your water test kit, not to your drug cabinet. Many times a tank cleaning and water change will cure your fish with no additional treatment."

-- Ken Reeves, p.87

[John_Nicholson]

The most memorable passage for me is

"If you begin experiencing a disease problem with any fish go first to your water test kit, not to your drug cabinet. Many times a tank cleaning and water change will cure your fish with no additional treatment."

-- Ken Reeves, p.87

Yep I preach that all the time but new folks seldom believe me.

-john

[DISCUS STU]

i noticed the same, but attributed that to predigital photography and publishing quality as even photos of people seemed muted. have a look at p.23 and p.94

Being in the printing industry, I also have the book, I can tell you that colors, ink levels, saturations, can be "pushed" in the printing process which is why it's a very involved digital profiling process to print color accurately, especially before digital and even with digital. There's also a certain amount of visual noodling that occurs and sampling that needs to be done while your're printing. The old books were printed on analog ink offset presses, they were much more prone to changes and variability then the newer, digital toner based printers. So I don't know if the Discus back then were more colorful than now. It may be more a product of the way the book may have been printed.

The newer digital megapixel cameras can also carry much more information than the old analog cameras, and w/o grain.

As always, it also depends on who's taking the pictures and how well they know how to use the equipment, but today's digital equipment is much more forgiving, and there's a lot you can do to easily make corrections on the computer in the post process.

[Jack L]

Yep and every new person that comes in thinks they are the first person to ever think of it....LOL.

-john

agreed.

one of them mentioned using the RO waste water for grow out like you do.

also noticed one of those breeders used upholstery foam for their systems!

[Jack L]

The most memorable passage for me is

"If you begin experiencing a disease problem with any fish go first to your water test kit, not to your drug cabinet. Many times a tank cleaning and water change will cure your fish with no additional treatment."

-- Ken Reeves, p.87

yeah several said that Ds will live with a moderate amount of parasites...

[Jack L]

Yep I preach that all the time but new folks seldom believe me.

-john


these old timers are not saying that water kills parasites, but the good water will allow Ds to fight it off naturally...and therefore "cure" it. some of them said that meds can actually cause damage, and several said it is very hard to know what is actually ailing the fish, so throwing meds at it carelessly is a bad thing.

i already forget, but the one said he regularly sacrifices a few fish a month to study under the microscope!!!

clean water doesn't kill cooties on the fish, but great water quality makes the fish healthy enough to thrive in spite of cooties.

wildfish are riddled with parasites right? and they thrive...

that is how i read it anyway.

[Jack L]

Being in the printing industry, I also have the book, I can tell you that colors, ink levels, saturations, can be "pushed" in the printing process which is why it's a very involved digital profiling process to print color accurately, especially before digital and even with digital. There's also a certain amount of visual noodling that occurs and sampling that needs to be done while your're printing. The old books were printed on analog ink offset presses, they were much more prone to changes and variability then the newer, digital toner based printers. So I don't know if the Discus back then were more colorful than now. It may be more a product of the way the book may have been printed.

The newer digital megapixel cameras can also carry much more information than the old analog cameras, and w/o grain.

As always, it also depends on who's taking the pictures and how well they know how to use the equipment, but today's digital equipment is much more forgiving, and there's a lot you can do to easily make corrections on the computer in the post process.

thanks for the info!

do you happen to have Degen Wild Caught Discus? those pictures are like actual photos or something, all the pages sticking together but very high res

[DISCUS STU]

I may have it somewhere, I have many of the Degen books. At the time these were real treats and something to look forward to having and owning.

Much of this has changed with the internet. The books, despite their often great pictures, don't sustain their relevance as a resource as much as this type of forum and so aren't really worth the investment when new info. is available instantly.

I remember finally biting and going for the Axelrod/Degen/Burgess compendium "The Atlas of Discus of The World" which was a very nice oversized thick book of almost all the known stains of the time. Beautifully printed, somewhat expensive, even if they did have Discus centerfolds that had a Discus broken into two parts due the to the book's spine. Nice book except for the fact that it's now very dated. No Pigeon Bloods, Blue Diamonds, Snakeskins, etc. These strains weren't around at the time this was published. So again the immediacy of the internet has supplanted much of the role of the traditional printing industry.

But for everything gained, much of the time some things are lost. There was a sense of excitement and anticipation waiting to receive the book(s) you ordered as you went through the pages in a very, deliberate, linear fashion. The internet is a different medium and so is the experience. Both have their strengths and advantages.

[Jack L]

a good bit is still relevant, don't you think?
i get what you are saying about the web, but but there are too many answers on the web, you can find ANY answer you want, and not much data to back it up on forums.

[DISCUS STU]

a good bit is still relevant, don't you think?
i get what you are saying about the web, but but there are too many answers on the web, you can find ANY answer you want, and not much data to back it up on forums.

Point well taken, but at the same time and I always mention this, many of these old books advocated practices that may be very outdated or even outdated. Many of them promoted maintaining low ph values and very soft water. Not only a PIA but difficult to maintain in all practicality. Also treatments for disease, etc.

Yes, your're right. If you're looking for it on the internet, such as evidence that left handed Honda drivers in NJ (me) are more prone to road rage than right handed Subaru drivers in Oklahoma, yes you will find it. So again point well taken, a good authoritative, well researched, compendium of facts and points of interest should still have its place. Instead of painstakingly, researching, and or stumbling across the good stuff, why not have it in a single place; like a book.

Now what we really need is 2015's "Good" book. Because at this time we must have reached the point where most of the good info should be pretty well figured out and "fixed" (lol):D. Relevant and accurate doesn't always stay that way for long, but again a good book should still have some value, especially for people that are relatively new to all of this.

[Jack L]

some of the old books i've looked at are current on pH, only when breeding do they say it matters. one of them says about higher hardness for grow out too.

i also like the wild origin info, that got pretty confusing when trying to piece it together from threads.

a good updated book with what is best practice now would be great. we should start a group project on this board.

but there really could be a FAQ on here somewhere that has canned answers. the "library" is a bit light an has lots of old links.

[Jack L]

actually digital can't hold a candle to very good analog photos. It is now getting closer so to speak but still miles from what good film in a top notch camera can do.

subjective ; )

[DISCUS STU]

subjective ; )

Yes, it depends on your criteria. I'm not sure what information supports the assertion that analog is superior to digital. Like most of us I've used both and don't see any advantages to film over digital.

Then again, there's a whole group of retro enthusiasts that are into scratchy vinyl records because they claim it sounds "warmer" than digital.

[CliffsDiscus]

I still see some of these breeders locally around, most of the time at LFSs. They ask if I'm still doing the Discus. Some of the breeders sold their Discus to
Muraski in California. He shipped thousand each month to Japan at that time. As for Degan it never made it big in the U.S., their were only one distributor
name Jack Graves in Texas and another breeder Curtis Holmes in Walnut Creek,
California.


Cliff

[pitdogg2]

Yes, it depends on your criteria. I'm not sure what information supports the assertion that analog is superior to digital. Like most of us I've used both and don't see any advantages to film over digital.

My criteria is in talking to professional photographer, and my comment pertains to color/detail more than anything. While you can get great detail in both his comment and I'm going to butcher it here but here goes. This is the basic analogy you can upconvert standard TV to 720P/1080P it is still not HD while it looks much better in it just the same pixel but more of them. According to him there in the past was some very good film that had much much better true color saturation. Now before anybody jumps all over me about his abilities he is none other than Mo Devlin who i used to chat with on the ACA...and yes he uses Digital camera's for ease off posting but I bet if he wanted a true archival photo of something very meaningful to him he'd break out the film the last I'm speculating on but our corporate photographer where I work echoed that last statement to me. He also bought up a tremendous amount of film and a brand new monster fridge to keep it in. YMMV

I'm no photographer and this conversation was 5yrs ago....

[Jack L]

I still see some of these breeders locally around, most of the time at LFSs. They ask if I'm still doing the Discus. Some of the breeders sold their Discus to
Muraski in California. He shipped thousand each month to Japan at that time. As for Degan it never made it big in the U.S., their were only one distributor
name Jack Graves in Texas and another breeder Curtis Holmes in Walnut Creek,
California.


Cliff

That is pretty cool, you should get them to sign a copy ; )
I wonder if any breeders in USA ship out now? from what i have been reading, it is the other way around now.

[Boyd Luth]

The most memorable passage for me is

"If you begin experiencing a disease problem with any fish go first to your water test kit, not to your drug cabinet. Many times a tank cleaning and water change will cure your fish with no additional treatment."

-- Ken Reeves, p.87
Changing water, and cleaning is Theaureputic :-) for me .....

[DISCUS STU]

My criteria is in talking to professional photographer, and my comment pertains to color/detail more than anything. While you can get great detail in both his comment and I'm going to butcher it here but here goes. This is the basic analogy you can upconvert standard TV to 720P/1080P it is still not HD while it looks much better in it just the same pixel but more of them. According to him there in the past was some very good film that had much much better true color saturation. Now before anybody jumps all over me about his abilities he is none other than Mo Devlin who i used to chat with on the ACA...and yes he uses Digital camera's for ease off posting but I bet if he wanted a true archival photo of something very meaningful to him he'd break out the film the last I'm speculating on but our corporate photographer where I work echoed that last statement to me. He also bought up a tremendous amount of film and a brand new monster fridge to keep it in. YMMV

I'm no photographer and this conversation was 5yrs ago....

Understood Ivan, though 5 years ago in digital photography is understandably a very long time ago in dog years. The technology has, and is, progressing very quickly.