Saving the runt

[RainbowsSwim]

Is there ways to save runts or are they doomed to died? I got two for free from a local hobbiest breeder when I bought three siblings yesterday (no other fish in tank). One died this morning. They didn't seem to eat they just hide. the one left at least stays with the group and swims with the others they don't seem to pick on him (probably cause the new environment.) The runts head is skinny. I just wanted to give him a fighting chance the guy was gonna freeze him. Thanks in advance.

[RainbowsSwim]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c158/atakofthepenguins/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_104757.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/atakofthepenguins/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_104757.jpg.html)

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c158/atakofthepenguins/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_105019.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/atakofthepenguins/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_105019.jpg.html)

[RainbowsSwim]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c158/atakofthepenguins/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_105019.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/atakofthepenguins/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151124_105019.jpg.html)

[rickztahone]

I'm sorry to say but that discus should have been culled. That isn't very responsible as a breeder, hobbyist or no.

[MKD]

ususally I suggest to get a group of 6. Since you bought only 3 , it's good to keep the runt in there to spread out the aggresive and MAY save 1 of the 3 to be a runt. why did you get only 3? probably tha't why he gave you those for free to have bigger group.

[RainbowsSwim]

I just started adding fish to this tank yesterday. I definitely plan on getting more but it seems the pickings in my area are slim. He said he was gonna freeze it cause he's a runt. I had another runt but he died this morning :( so I also posted this to the sick forum.

[Keith Perkins]

I guess if I was in your shoes I'd be a little concerned. Runts don't normally suddenly die at a young age, they just never amount to much. If I had to bet I'd say that fish was unhealthy for some reason and died because of the health issue, not because it was a runt. Your other "runt" appears to have a badly sunken body which also isn't indicative of a "runt". Runts are just small discus, not otherwise unhealthy looking ones.

[GrayLadyPat]

Healthy happy runts are going to be ok, but they'll never be "huge" and some will never grow above what I consider silver dollar size. I had one in my tank with my big kids and he was fine for over a year.

The runt you showed in your pictures has some issues and may not survive, but keep up the water changes, add more fish when you can, and who knows? He might turn into the one with all the personality, just like mine did.

As Rick said, he should have been culled, but since he hasn't, and you want to give him a fighting chance, good luck.

P.S. Mine would still be alive except that his small size allowed him to get trapped inside a decorative ceramic house I had in the tank and "drowned" in the bubbles from an air stone. He would probably still be ruling my tank had it not been for that unfortunate accident.

[RainbowsSwim]

Thats why I posted it also in the illness forum the hobbiest said they were just runts not sick so hopefully someone can post something I can do to help him get better. I don't want to add more fish in case it spreads. He looks better than the other one that passed.

[RainbowsSwim]

Thanks for the replies :) this is my first time keeping discus I have three other large tanks but each new species there is much to learn...

[Altum Nut]

Thanks for the replies :) this is my first time keeping discus I have three other large tanks but each new species there is much to learn...

To be honest...this should be a learning lesson. When discus stress...they are prone to disease....which are likely to affect other healthy Discus. That runt also seems to have razor head and thinning out even if it looks better then the one that passed on.
IMO...I would cull it.

...Ralph

[Filip]

A little offtopic question maybe.
What's the difference between stunt and a runt discus.
I see the terms all around the forum and I wonder are they synonyms or is there some difference?

[warblad79]

Runt - Reject
Stunt - Neglected

[Filip]

Runt - Reject
Stunt - Neglected

Thanks Warblad.
You couldn't have said it more shorter and more clearer than this. :)

[bluelagoon]

Or when you stunt something it becomes a runt.

[Filip]

Or when you stunt something it becomes a runt.

The way I understand Warblad is that a runt is a god stunted from birth discus, and a stunt is a human stunted discus.

[Keith Perkins]

The way I understand Warblad is that a runt is a God stunted from birth discus, and a stunt is a human stunted discus.

Exactly. Stunted discus will have the telltale sign of the large disproportionate eye size, runts are just small all over.

[RainbowsSwim]

Thank you guys for all your input we ended up putting him out of his misery to rest in piece. Hopefully the medical forum can help me diagnose him so I can be on the lookout for symptoms with the other three.

[Filip]

Thank you guys for all your input we ended up putting him out of his misery to rest in piece. Hopefully the medical forum can help me diagnose him so I can be on the lookout for symptoms with the other three.

Too late for this advice, but freezing method above mentioned is recognised as one of more humaine ways to eutanise a fish.

[bluelagoon]

The way I understand Warblad is that a runt is a god stunted from birth discus, and a stunt is a human stunted discus.

OK yes,like in runt of the litter.Thanks

[warblad79]

Please let me elaborate my opinion.

Runt is like abnormalities since birth, the weakest, the ugliest or some say cull/reject in the group. examples, I have fry that swims downward, upward, missing fins, bulging eyes or eyes are smaller than the other, slow growth, duck face, open gill plate, breathing heavily, bent spine, ugly chin, and bulldog shape.

Stunted - is a very healthy fish to begin with but then the owner neglected the fish. They look underdeveloped, eyes are disproportion from the body, football shape and don't grow larger than 4".

[Filip]

Please let me elaborate my opinion.

Runt is like abnormalities since birth, the weakest, the ugliest or some say cull/reject in the group. examples, I have fry that swims downward, upward, missing fins, bulging eyes or eyes are smaller than the other, slow growth, duck face, open gill plate, breathing heavily, bent spine, ugly chin, and bulldog shape.

Stunted - is a very healthy fish to begin with but then the owner neglected the fish. They look underdeveloped, eyes are disproportion from the body, football shape and don't grow larger than 4".

Thanks Warblad.
Although you have manage to put this whole text very clearly in only two words. :)

[nc0gnet0]

Exactly. Stunted discus will have the telltale sign of the large disproportionate eye size, runts are just small all over.

^^ this ^^

Stunted discus typically have health issues, were malnourished and never grew properly due to any host of environmental issues. They are most often out of proportion with normal to near normal sized eyes, on a small body, giving them that buggeyed look.

Runts can be perfectly healthy, fully colored, and sometimes actually nice looking discus with the exception of they are 1/2 or less the size of a normal discus. However, proportionally they are fine. Think of them as "midget discus".

Ideally both should be culled, or at least pulled from any breeding program, but, IMO, a runt does not pose a health threat to the tank, whereas a stunted discus often does due to its weakened state and poor immune system, making it a breeding ground for potential pathogens.

The discus the OP is asking about are Stunted, not runts. As such they should be culled.

-Rick

[rickztahone]

Or when you stunt something it becomes a runt.

Every group will have a runt, and not only in discus. If you stunt a discus, it was because the conditions weren't optimal for its growth, because even runt discus can grow to a good size, but compared to the group, it will be smaller.

[rickztahone]

^^ this ^^

Stunted discus typically have health issues, were malnourished and never grew properly due to any host of environmental issues. They are most often out of proportion with normal to near normal sized eyes, on a small body, giving them that buggeyed look.

Runts can be perfectly healthy, fully colored, and sometimes actually nice looking discus with the exception of they are 1/2 or less the size of a normal discus. However, proportionally they are fine. Think of them as "midget discus".

Ideally both should be culled, or at least pulled from any breeding program, but, IMO, a runt does not pose a health threat to the tank, whereas a stunted discus often does due to its weakened state and poor immune system, making it a breeding ground for potential pathogens.

The discus the OP is asking about are Stunted, not runts. As such they should be culled.

-Rick

I see now that there was second page to the thread :).

Rick could not have said it better.

[DiscusRob]

Tried to post this on op's emergency room thread, won't allow me to post there.

According to the form, op states tank had been up 6 weeks, parameters are showing only amm. at .25, no nitrites or nitrates. The tank is still cycling and the op needs to increase water changes as posted on form 40% once a week. While the pics do show some less than ideal discus, as we know water changes are a big part of keeping them fat and happy. The amm. level is a big problem though.

[RainbowsSwim]

I had posted it there the fish was culled

[DiscusRob]

I had posted it there the fish was culled

You still need to address the ammonia issue and up your water changes:):)

[RainbowsSwim]

You still need to address the ammonia issue and up your water changes:):)

Thanks i've done multiple water changes since and got the ammonia under control my three are doing much better and their colors are already coming through especially in the last 24 hours will be getting at least 3 more on tuesday to finish school. 92247

[seankelly]

I had a runt for over 6 years, he never had any health issues, he was a very nice,thick Red Marlboro,but never got bigger than 3 inches,I could never figure out why he didn't grow like the others,but he just didn't.It was funny when I would tell people that he was years older than some of the others in the tank that we're 6 inches or better.All I can tell you is sometimes it just happens

[Akili]

Thanks i've done multiple water changes since and got the ammonia under control my three are doing much better and their colors are already coming through especially in the last 24 hours will be getting at least 3 more on tuesday to finish school. Make sure you Quarantine your new fish for six weeks minimum This will help http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=quarantine

[RainbowsSwim]

Make sure you Quarantine your new fish for six weeks minimum This will help http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=quarantine

I've only had these fish for 6 days and got them at a steal for $15 each but wanted to add three more on Tuesday to get my minimum 6 I have yet to set up my QT tank should I be ok not quarantineing since they are all new for now. I bought deworming flakes and some immune boost/recover flakes from a site recommend on here just in case.

[Akili]

I've only had these fish for 6 days and got them at a steal for $15 each but wanted to add three more on Tuesday to get my minimum 6 I have yet to set up my QT tank should I be ok not quarantineing since they are all new for now. I bought deworming flakes and some immune boost/recover flakes from a site recommend on here just in case.There is always a chance of cross contamination in six days. Then again it's your fish, Do what you think is right.

[John_Nicholson]

That is not a runt. It is a cull. No good discus breeder would have let that fish leave their place. It is unhealthy. Never take a chance on a fish that looks like that.

-john

[ericNH]

Thanks i've done multiple water changes since and got the ammonia under control my three are doing much better and their colors are already coming through especially in the last 24 hours will be getting at least 3 more on tuesday to finish school.

Rainbowswim, I see a bright discus future ahead for you. I think you're taking the right advice and making the right moves. Keep your tank clean, clean, clean!

[RainbowsSwim]

Rainbowswim, I see a bright discus future ahead for you. I think you're taking the right advice and making the right moves. Keep your tank clean, clean, clean!

Thanks I almost have my tank to where I want it aside from more miramo moss balls along the bottom and I'm still debating on adding my extra extra large driftwood piece (right now I use it as decoration in my house haha) I don't want the tank to be to hard to clean. It is day 7 of tank with fish and I will finish school minimum tomorrow. I had bought an electric vaccum that doesn't remove water that works amazing in my tank for cleaning up debris. It never worked in my other three tanks cause they have sand substrate. 92259

[ericNH]

I had bought an electric vaccum that doesn't remove water that works amazing in my tank for cleaning up debris.

What is this "electric vacuum" of which you speak - I am currently looking into the Eheim QuickVac... is that what you use?

[RainbowsSwim]

Yes it is it works great you have to take off the longest extentor if you have a BB cause it is designed for gravel. This device doesn't work well on sand unless you can hover perfectly. It is easy to clean and completely submersible. I got mine on clearance at Petco for $15 (I think it was a online return) worth the full price money though. It takes 4 AAs

[ericNH]

Thanks for the info - that's the second positive review I've heard about the QuickVac. Another question - what size is that tank you have pictured above? Is that a 125?

[RainbowsSwim]

Just 100gal