New here - intro & a few questions

[SalsaMom]

Hello -
Found this site after seeing a talk on YouTube given by the site owner (I think he is the site owner). Glad I did. I have lurked and found some great info.
Hubby and I have had various tanks over 20 years...freshwater, saltwater...so we understand good basic fish keeping, nitrogen cycle etc.
Neither of us has ever had Discus and we are researching them before we go that route.

Just bought a 65 gallon tank - it's not set up yet and we are content to take our time before we set it up at all as we figure out what kind of fish we want.
We have a Filstar L canister filter already that works and we have new media for. Have a small one too we could put on it - or add an HOB as well.
Have a 150 watt Jager heater - looks like if we go with Discus we'd need a second heater or one bigger one to ensure it could keep temp high enough.
We like Prime by Seachem to treat tap water.
Considering bare bottom - or maybe just VERY minimum gravel bottom (super thin - just to hide the tank bottom) - would be open to other kinds of substrate suggestions. Still debating totally bare bottom.
Already have a freshwater master test kit - will get the gh/kh test if go with Discus.
We take the care of any animals in our care seriously - so we don't want to get fish we can't properly care for.

Here are some questions that I've dug around on and am trying to get a more exact answer to.

1 - our water is very hard and our ph is very high (ph 8 or little over - haven't tested it in a while). I looked at some stickies about not messing with the ph - Discus can adapt to ph as long as it's stable. Makes sense. I have never tried to adjust ph in a tank and it's not something I want to do. Anyone in an area like mine - or here in middle TN - having good luck with conditions like these using treated tap water?

2 - water changes - we have jobs and a child and lives...I see talk of water changes every day, every other day...I will be honest - we can't do more than once a week - sometimes life may get in the way of that and it gets bumped to 10 days or 2 weeks. My thought is - don't stock the tank up to the max bio-load it can handle - and start with fish that are a little bigger/older anyway so their size is already pretty stable - they are already grown out for the most part. Would that be ok? About how many fish would that be in a 65 gallon tank with the given filtration (and I know there is no perfect answer to that question)? Would this be just a no-go situation and we need to scrap keeping Discus at this time - or might it be ok but hey - add a second filter - maybe an HOB etc? OR - you can probably do that but you need a refugium to do that etc....

If they just absolutely must have multiple water changes a week (no matter how lightly I stock the tank) I sure want to know that now - because they will not be an option at this time - because we want to do right by any fish in there be it Discus or not!

3 - probably overlooked this - but with good care and food - how long do these guys usually live?

Thanks all and I appreciate any ideas.
I'd rather be honest and say multiple water changes a week just a'int gonna happen and NOT get Discus than lie and have them keel over and be posting on here with all kinds of problems down the road!

[ericNH]

I don't think extra filtration will make up for water changing. I am not an expert - just my 2 cents. But I've read a ton on this site and have occasionally run across some seemingly successful discus keepers that change water only once a week. In my own experience, though, I had nothing but problems until I started changing 50% daily.

[strawberryblonde]

I hate to say it, but discus are not a good choice for you right now given your busy lives, the small size of your tank and the fact that you can't do more than a weekly water change.

It's true that you can get away with a weekly WC once discus are full grown (for some people anyways), but there's no way to under stock a 65g when you're talking discus. They require about 10 gallons of water per discus, and when you have fewer than 5-6 in a tank, they tend to get aggressive, with one discus being bullied by all the others till it sickens and dies.

If you had a 90-100 gallon tank and stocked it with 6 fully adult discus, you could probably go with one water change per week. But at the moment, your set up isn't good for them.

Welcome to the forums though and please stick around! You never know, you might decide to upgrade to a bigger tank, or find a way to do more water changes. =)

[Jack L]

1. i have grown them out in 8 + tap water.
2. this board will flame you for not doing water changes, you can get by w/o the number most of the D pros do here, but you will not hurt yourself by doing a lot. the massive water changes and empty glass boxes most here advocate makes things simpler/better, very true. but the fact is, even if you did 10 WC a day, you will not come ANYWAY near the amount of water changes that happening in nature. so no matter what, it is a balancing act. the WC are for dilution/removal, adding more filters won't really help. i have researched the amount of filtration needed and have come to the conclusion that people want to sell filters. what really matters is the quality of water and every setup is different. if you buy them full grown and aren't feeding like crazy to grow them out, then you will have less waste build up in tank, but big fish = big poo....so still will be bioload. my rule of thumb is 10gals or more/fish.
3. depends days to 10+ years

oh, that API test kit, heed the warning about its inaccuracy, all of them really. it is really hard to compare the colors. and the wait times matter, and they expire.

[SalsaMom]

Thanks for the thoughts...I figured from what I've been reading that I'd get answers like the above.
That's ok though - I'd rather know from folks that have these fish the REAL deal.
Now...back to figuring out what fun fishes will be happy in our 65. Call us geeks - but planning the tank out is kind of fun.
Kind of bummed to scap Discus...oh well.
We don't want to get any fish we can't care for properly - and congrats to those dedicated folks doing multiple water changes a week! Maybe someday.

[Jack L]

planning IS a lot of the fun of it.

[Filip]

You could buy a fullgrown beautiful pair of discus,and add other schooling dither fish.
Add some decor and plants and there you go.

[rickztahone]

I hate to say it, but discus are not a good choice for you right now given your busy lives, the small size of your tank and the fact that you can't do more than a weekly water change.

It's true that you can get away with a weekly WC once discus are full grown (for some people anyways), but there's no way to under stock a 65g when you're talking discus. They require about 10 gallons of water per discus, and when you have fewer than 5-6 in a tank, they tend to get aggressive, with one discus being bullied by all the others till it sickens and dies.

If you had a 90-100 gallon tank and stocked it with 6 fully adult discus, you could probably go with one water change per week. But at the moment, your set up isn't good for them.

Welcome to the forums though and please stick around! You never know, you might decide to upgrade to a bigger tank, or find a way to do more water changes. =)

I couldn't have said it any better. In fact, as I was reading OP, all of these thoughts popped in to my head as well.

[warblad79]

Thanks for the thoughts...I figured from what I've been reading that I'd get answers like the above.
That's ok though - I'd rather know from folks that have these fish the REAL deal.
Now...back to figuring out what fun fishes will be happy in our 65. Call us geeks - but planning the tank out is kind of fun.
Kind of bummed to scap Discus...oh well.
We don't want to get any fish we can't care for properly - and congrats to those dedicated folks doing multiple water changes a week! Maybe someday.

You can also automate you water changes if don't you mind spending for less than 30mins you can do 50% water change a day. Planning is quite fun

[Filip]

You can also automate you water changes if don't you mind spending for less than 30mins you can do 50% water change a day. Planning is quite fun


Agree.
I.E.
I do my 80-90% Wc in 20 min.
Time from which 10 min is attach/reattach hoses,siphon and wipe(that's the working part)
And the other 10 min. Are just observing the proces along with a coffee.

[John_Nicholson]

I see you have been given lots of good advise but wanted to throw out there......I have 3 kids and 3 grand kids, I work roughly 50 hours a week with a total commute of 2 hours a day. We also rise horses. We live to bow hunt at a deer lease that is 6 hours away. We have lots of other activities and I have a fish house with 24 75 gallon tanks in it. Many years ago I was talking to Jack Wattley at a fish show and he said the following......" People can either watch TV or raise discus" That still holds true today. If you want to raise discus you can find the time.

Good luck.

-john

[SalsaMom]

Well I am intrigued with the last two posts about automating water changes. How are you doing that? I have been reading about many folks aging their water for their discus tanks a day or so before adding it to the tank as well. I would have to test my tap water from the tap and after aging to see if my ph stays stable - seems that is the issue with aging the water - making sure ph is stable.
How is it handled if you go on vacation? We aren't gone a lot - but we try to get out of town for a treat once a year for about a week.
FWIW -goal with this tank is just to enjoy the fish - not to breed etc...

[Filip]

Well I am intrigued with the last two posts about automating water changes. How are you doing that? I have been reading about many folks aging their water for their discus tanks a day or so before adding it to the tank as well. I would have to test my tap water from the tap and after aging to see if my ph stays stable - seems that is the issue with aging the water - making sure ph is stable.
How is it handled if you go on vacation? We aren't gone a lot - but we try to get out of town for a treat once a year for about a week.
FWIW -goal with this tank is just to enjoy the fish - not to breed etc...

My Wc routine is sure not the healthiest and proper way to do ,but it does the job done quickly with little to no harm to discus.

I do the straight tap wc with temp.adjusting, adding seachem safe water conditioner in tank on the run and run the water through the bottle full of filter foam and micron bags(this part is to outgass the co2 bubbles out of water).

When I do 80-90% my discus are a bit shocked for 15 min afterwards and after that they swim happily.

When I do 50-60% they are perfectly fine and ready to eat instantly afterwards.

I do the WCs with Pvc cheap flexible hoses.
One for the tap and one for the outake directly to my toilet.

Aging water Is preferred, but this routine also suit my needs without much harm done to discus and to my busy lifestyle.

[Filip]

On your vacation questions.
If they are well cared and in good condition you can leave them for more than 10 days without food and wc.

[John_Nicholson]

All of my tanks are drilled. My change water is stored in the attic of my fish house. I can change all of my water in a little over an hour. Since this is just a hobby for me I do not always have them all full. On a normal night it takes me about 45 minutes. Since I change the water on my fry tanks twice a day there is another 20 minutes or so in the morning.

-john

[MKD]

I applause OP for taking time research and open for those posts. I have couple questions

How much do you like discus?
How is your tank picture in your head?

[SalsaMom]

MKD...OP here....your questions are good.
How much do I like discus...the more I learn about them, the more I see them - the more I like them. We went to our LFS earlier today. They have two big tanks of Stendker discus. Those tanks are not on the same filtration as other tanks - which I like - I think this store takes care of their discus correctly. Back to your question - what I like about discus most of all is that they seem to pay attention to things going around outside the tank. At the store today they would come up to the tank when you walked up - and swim along as you walked along...they seemed very "engaged". Of course I like their bigger size and various colors and patterns. I do see why hobbyists get really smitten with these fish.

When I picture our tank all set up - whatever we wind up doing I picture happy, healthy fish! We don't want real plants - maybe some nice silk ones. Minimal substrate (just more to clean huh?). Nice and peaceful - that's what I picture.

We painted the back of the new 65 gallon tank today - a pretty blue to hide cords etc.
We will get a few more coats of paint on it tomorrow and move it and the stand into the house (out of the garage) tomorrow.
Of course when we got home from the LFS I dug around on Stendker discus...discovered Discus Hans...watched some videos of him and others...basically trying to get every bit of info into my brain that I can.
Still....others on this thread have commented that the 65 gallon is going to be small long-term...I get mixed info online about that...but my gut is telling me 65 is a little small even with only Discus and no other tank-mates in there.

Hubby is leaning toward a marine FOWLR and keeping smaller fish in there - damsels, gobys etc...

We will see.

[strawberryblonde]

You could always use it as a grow out tank and then keep an eye out for a larger tank that has the same basic footprint. For instance, I only have a 4 foot wide space for my main display tank, so I hunted on craigslist (while I was growing out discus in my 50g) till I found a 120g that was only 4 feet wide. It's tall though! LOL

The advantage to growing out in the smaller tank is that it's far quicker and easier to clean on a daily basis so you don't really feel overwhelmed with it. With a good python hose for filling, and a pump and tubing for draining, the whole thing can be done in about 20 minutes, and that includes wiping down the sides and bottom of the tank, rinsing any filters, etc.

For a growout tank, it doesn't need to look barren. You can add small pieces of driftwood that are easy to move around as you siphon the bottom and a few silk plants are fine too, just put them in little terra cotta planters or some small glass pots. Add a few marbles to the glass pots and you're done! They look pretty, are easy to move, remove, etc and there's no stress or worry about food getting trapped in the substrate.

If you want to keep your options open for discus, paint the outside bottom of your tank white or beige tomorrow while you're painting the back. If you don't use it for discus, you can always add substrate and go with the FOWLR tank.

[MKD]

Tracy,

I think, you will be a great discus keeper. Small size discus requires more water changes, so maybe not fit your schedule. You can try adult discus with multiple WC to see how you feel . Then reduce WC to their and your need. Imo, quick WC will help so much. All my tanks drilled .3/4" - 1" quick drain about 6" from bottom. With 65 gallon tank, you can do WC within 15-20mins if you have quick drain and aged water barrel.

[SalsaMom]

A Python gravel cleaner/syphon was mentioned - I think that is an awesome idea. The only thing that gives hubby and I pause is adding water BACK to the tank with it. Standing there adding some Prime back into the tank where the incoming water from the tap is going. We use Prime and I know it locks up tap water chlorine etc very quickly - but kind of makes us nervous!
We've always kept a "dedicated for the fish tank" plastic trash can to mix water & Prime in and we use another dedicated container/big cup to scoop that water back into the tank.
Could a Python really be used to put water back into a Discus tank - from the tap??

[Filip]

A Python gravel cleaner/syphon was mentioned - I think that is an awesome idea. The only thing that gives hubby and I pause is adding water BACK to the tank with it. Standing there adding some Prime back into the tank where the incoming water from the tap is going. We use Prime and I know it locks up tap water chlorine etc very quickly - but kind of makes us nervous!
We've always kept a "dedicated for the fish tank" plastic trash can to mix water & Prime in and we use another dedicated container/big cup to scoop that water back into the tank.
Could a Python really be used to put water back into a Discus tank - from the tap??

Many Discus keepers does straight from tap with added Prime as i do . Many more does age the water overnight in a barrel .
As i said previously ageing water prior Wc is much more better and healthier option for the fish.

Since you allready have a barrel for this purpose it makes it much easier for you .
Just buy your self a stong 1000 Galons per hour pump and pvc hose and put it in the ageing barel, and that will do the same job as adding from a tap .
then you run the pump with a heater in the barrel and age the watter one day prior Wc.
The pump will do the pumping aged water from the barrel in the tank .

[Jack L]

+1

and i'm training my "assistants"!

[Jack L]

A Python gravel cleaner/syphon was mentioned - I think that is an awesome idea. The only thing that gives hubby and I pause is adding water BACK to the tank with it. Standing there adding some Prime back into the tank where the incoming water from the tap is going. We use Prime and I know it locks up tap water chlorine etc very quickly - but kind of makes us nervous!
We've always kept a "dedicated for the fish tank" plastic trash can to mix water & Prime in and we use another dedicated container/big cup to scoop that water back into the tank.
Could a Python really be used to put water back into a Discus tank - from the tap??

I don't do this now (now i use RO with adback minerals (thought i'm moving to 50/50 tap/ro) in a barrel and pump it up to tank with this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IJR5F6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage)


but my last round with Ds i did this.

1. connected garden hose to sink
2. put hose in tank
3. turned water on to near same temp based on feel
4. dumped some amquel ( i think that was the product back then, prior prime)

notes: i never did more that 50% in a 110 gallon tank
sometimes i forgot the amquel, and my city did use chloramine, the tank processed it out.

it was a 100 heavily planted tank.

if i were to speed up my current process, it would be to install 3/4" plumbing to tank, takes me a few minutes to unreel/reel 75' of 5/8th garden hose doesn't move water like a fire hose over 75'.

[strawberryblonde]

I don't age my water since my pH doesn't swing, shift or dance...not even a little bit. =)

I just use my Python to fill my tank straight from the tap. I adjust the water temp prior to turning the valve to fill the tank so that it closely matches the temps in the tank. On a side note, I try to keep the fill water about 1-2 degrees below the temps in the tank, this uses less hot water and that reduces bubbles and gasses. The slightly lower temp doesn't bother my fish at all.

I use Safe (The powdered cheaper form of Prime). I just dump in 1/2 teaspoon at the start of the fill process, then set my timer and walk away.

I've never had any problems with it at all. The fish do fine with the straight tap refill along with Safe or Prime to remove chlorine and chloramines.

For me, I rarely use my pump to remove water from my tank. It's just a PITA for me to place the pump and run the tubing outside, then have to still use my python to vacuum the bottom.

For my 55g, and using my python (I run it outdoors in order to get a better vertical drop which speeds the draining process), I can drain the tank to 5" in about 12 minutes. Yours shouldn't take much longer than that. Refill is 7 minutes.

[Filip]

I don't age my water since my pH doesn't swing, shift or dance...not even a little bit. =)

I just use my Python to fill my tank straight from the tap. I adjust the water temp prior to turning the valve to fill the tank so that it closely matches the temps in the tank. On a side note, I try to keep the fill water about 1-2 degrees below the temps in the tank, this uses less hot water and that reduces bubbles and gasses. The slightly lower temp doesn't bother my fish at all.

I use Safe (The powdered cheaper form of Prime). I just dump in 1/2 teaspoon at the start of the fill process, then set my timer and walk away.

I've never had any problems with it at all. The fish do fine with the straight tap refill along with Safe or Prime to remove chlorine and chloramines.

For me, I rarely use my pump to remove water from my tank. It's just a PITA for me to place the pump and run the tubing outside, then have to still use my python to vacuum the bottom.

For my 55g, and using my python (I run it outdoors in order to get a better vertical drop which speeds the draining process), I can drain the tank to 5" in about 12 minutes. Yours shouldn't take much longer than that. Refill is 7 minutes.



Toni , why do yo think that colder water has less bubbbles and gasses in it ? I have never thouht of that .


P.S. i also dont use any pumps to pump out the water from the tank . Gravity does the job done. My vertical line from my tank to my toilet is tall enough to pump out 80-90% of my 65 gallon tank in just 8 minutes . and i need additional 12 min. to refill the tank from the tap .

[Second Hand Pat]

PS; never use a garden hose. Use a potable water hose :)
Pat

[Jack L]

PS; never use a garden hose. Use a potable water hose :)
Pat

some garden hoses are drink safe, but i expect they will find that to be bad too and eventually the only safe pipes will be cast iron again.

[strawberryblonde]

It's just my personal observation on my own tank that the higher the ratio of water from my hot water heater, the more off gassing I experience in the tank... many little bubbles. I add my tap water at about 81F, that keeps the bubbles to a bare minimum.

Thank you for posting your exact times for draining your 65g using a python and dfraining it to your toilet, that good info to have!

[Second Hand Pat]

some garden hoses are drink safe, but i expect they will find that to be bad too and eventually the only safe pipes will be cast iron again.

Hi Jack, most garden hoses are treated with anti-mold and anti-bacterial inhibitors. This might kill your fish so not worth the risk IMO.
Pat

[CliffsDiscus]

SalsaMom,
I understand where your coming from, love to have Discus but don't have to time to do the waterchanges. Check if there are any Aquarium Maintenance
services in your area.

Cliff