Beginner's mistakes...Asking for advice on ich

[modealings]

Hi all - I am new to the forum and to the discus hobby. I've kept other fish off and on since I was a kid and tried discus once before but failed miserably. (Surprisingly, dumping a couple 4in fish into a 55 gal community tank with a 10% weekly water change didn't work out... I was in grade school at the time so I'll forgive myself.)

Anyway, now I'm giving discus another go and of course running in to more beginners mistakes. I recently got 5 nice looking 3-5in fish and placed them in what I thought was a cycled quarantine tank (just 30 gallons). I had converted it to bare bottom a week before adding the fish, but everything was still good - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, <20 nitrates, Temp 88. So I added the 5 discus and everything went well for a few days - eating vigorously, acting happy. Then I noticed some white spots popping up on a few. I recheck my parameters and my tank was nuked - ammonia through the roof, nitrites not even measuring yet. Amazingly I actually got all 5 fish through the cycle with microbe-lift and nite-out. (I'm not even going to tell you how high my ammonia and nitrite's got...). At the same time, I creeped my temp up to 92F and added some salt to try to halt the ich.

So now the cycle has been stable for a few weeks. I've maintained the high temp and salt (max was 2 tablespoons/5gallons) and the ich has receded from all but 1 fish. This one has ~4-5 persistent white spots on the tailfin that just won't go away (pics below), even after a month of heat and salt. Given that the microbe-lift and nite-out worked well for me, I just tried another one of eco-labs products, Herbtana, for the ich but saw no change over 10 days.

My question is, would you guys do anything differently for this ich that is still lingering? Again these 4-5 spots are very stable, on only 1 fish, and everyone in this quarantine tank is acting happy (vigorously eating). I'm doing 50% water changes daily (haha easy on a 30 gallon). I'm concerned about trying any other more serious meds - I just put these fish through the ringers and if they are acting healthy I don't want to mess with too much. I'm also concerned about leaving them in this small quarantine tank for too long (it's been 5 weeks). I have a BB, cycled 75 gallon ready to go but it does have 3 potted plants (gasp...I know, but I've always enjoyed live plants).

*Note about my water. Tap water in my area is very hard (~300) and pH is 8. Originally I thought this would be a no-go for discus but the importer I got the fish from keeps his in similar conditions. (He's even seeing spawning). I'm obviously not looking to breed these guys right now so I'd rather go with a more stable, high pH instead of running my small RO unit constantly.

Thank you for your help. Please be kind about these mistakes...

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[Second Hand Pat]

I would guess those white spots on the tail are not ich but spots caused by stress. Appear too large for ich.
Pat

[modealings]

Thanks Pat. This one certainly was the most stressed of the group but appears to be doing much better recently. Maybe I'm just hypersensitive given what i just put them through. Here's a more overall pic - the spots are minimal and he/she does seem healthier.
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[Second Hand Pat]

I would suggest start easing the temp down and watch closely.
Pat

[Chicago Discus]

I would agree with Pat start easing the temperature down a few degrees a day until you get to a more suitable temperature. 82-84 is a more preferred temperature for discus. Your importer was correct discus will do fine in a higher PH given the right tools to work with. 50% a day is fine but I would be wiping your tank down and rinsing that sponge as well.

Have you tried aging your water to see if there is any PH change after aeration? That would be my next step.......Josie

[modealings]

Thank you both. I'll ease the temp down slowly and monitor. I'll probably also keep the salt for now just so I'm just changing 1 variable at a time.

As for aging the water, I've definitely looked into it and will likely be my next step. Although my tank pH never changes from the tap pH.

[Second Hand Pat]

No reason to continue the salt. :)
Pat

[Akili]

With a 30 gal tank you should Up the water changes perhaps twice a day with 50 % or more.

[modealings]

Haha ok I'll cut out the salt.

Akili thanks for that advice, I'll give it a shot. I definitely noticed that increasing from 50% every other day to 50% daily made a difference. (I also like your quote - I'm definitely learning from failure over here...)

[Akili]

Haha ok I'll cut out the salt.

Akili thanks for that advice, I'll give it a shot. I definitely noticed that increasing from 50% every other day to 50% daily made a difference. (I also like your quote - I'm definitely learning from failure over here...)

+ 1:thumbsup:

[Skip]

them spots are from lack of water changes.. up them to daily.. large.. and it goes aways..

ICK.. COVERS THEM ALL OVER!!

[modealings]

Okay I'm uping to 50% wc's 2x/day. I'm tempted to just move them over to the 75g in the next few days. I just have a small pleco in there now and its reading 0/0/<20. I'd move my quarantine HOB and big sponge filter over too to try to prevent a monster crash like last time.

[Akili]

I would start by rehoming the pleco and first sanitize the 75 gal before moving them. With large water changes cycling the tank is a minimum factor.

[modealings]

Well definitely an option. Just some more about that tank - it's a new setup, 4 weeks old. I set it up while dealing with the other issues in the quarantine tank. (Although in hind-site, I actually wasn't quarantining the new discus from anything except the 3 potted plants I have in there. Haha 5 discus vs a few $5 amazon swords...). I've kept it at 88F since setup without fish. The pleco was originally in the quarantine tank and went through the same 4 weeks of heat and salt.

So there's certainly cross-contamination but it seems like I'd only have to worry about this if I'm (1) actually dealing with ich (which now seems less likely) and (2) dealing with a very resilient strain of ich that can survive 4 weeks of 88F and no fish on which to reproduce.

I'm realistic and definitely not above throwing out these potted plants, tearing it down, and sanitizing but I'm just weighing the pro's and con's.

[Akili]

Plecos tend to develop a taste for Discus body slime, in the 1990's I lost a 2 year old red turquoise which I had raised from a 8 week old fry Sorry do not have photos from then but have a look at this which was posted on the weekend http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122085-I-m-in-need-of-Help!&highlight=pleco

[modealings]

Dang that looks bad - thanks a lot for the heads up. The one I have is just a little Ancistrus dolichopterus but I'd still rather not risk it...

[Akili]

One more thing about Plecos is that they produce massive amounts of waste thus increased bioload.

[modealings]

Yea - that actually became quite obvious in the BB tank. I couldn't help myself and moved the discus to the 75g today (pics below), and rehomed the pleco. It's amazing how much better they were looking this morning after uping to 50% wc's 2x daily. I'm going to keep up with daily wc's in the 75g but was thinking just 50% 1x/d. It's going to be interesting to see if I can keep them happy with the potted plants in there - but I'm not going to hesitate to dump the plants if I see things going downhill.
Another quick question - do your growing fish ever seem satisfied after you feed them? I have the benefit of being home for the next few months so I'm doing 5-6 small feeds/day but these guys are ravenous. Haha I think I could feed them every 30min if I was up to doing the wc's. (Could be the hot temp - I'm still slowly bringing that down.)

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[strawberryblonde]

What a difference, they look great!!

I think you made the right decision in moving them. Just expect a mini-cycle in the tank and keep up with the twice a day water changes till your ammonia and nitrites hit 0ppm.

Myself? I do a 90% WC once a day while mine are growing, then reduce it once they reach 6". It's just what I was told to do when I started out on these forums and when I saw how HUGE my discus grew, I became a believer and kept on with it each time I grew out a new batch.

I know that some people only do 50% per day and they seem to do ok with it though.

But wow, what a change in your discus from the first pics on this thread. Amazing!

[modealings]

Thanks! (To be fair, the lighting was very poor in the small tank.)

I'm definitely rapidly becoming a believer in the power of the water change. From keeping other fish, I think I've always been hung up on the idea of maintaining a good nitrogen cycle which can be done with substrate and minimal wc's - but with discus it seems like the water change is the key.