pH up to 9.6 (due to Sodium Hydroxide)

[Kyla]

my city has a corrosion control plan to add sodium hydroxide to our water supply to mitigate the amount of lead in our drinking water. this could potentially raise the tap water pH to 9.6.

lots of us in the local fish group are pretty depressed about this... we have been so lucky to have great water. currently our tap water is soft (kh 3-4, gh 6) with a ph of about 7.4-7.6.

it seems many cities do this to their water supplies too, and i am wondering what the hobbyists and the pet stores and the fish suppliers in those cities do to prepare the water for their fish. i dont know of any fish that would be OK with a 9.6 ph level... it seems impossible that every hobbyist invests in an RO system.... but that is the only way i can think of to prep the water for fish, esp discus.

i assume this will mean that if i want to keep my fish i need an RO unit. am i wrong in this? are there other appropriate options? some ppl have suggested "ph down" products, but i have always been leary of those quick fixes...

and if i must get an RO unit, would it be appropriate to use the tap water with sodium hydroxide to mix with the RO water or should i be getting pre-made mixes meant for discus? and if i should get pre-made mixes are there any recommendations?

thanks in advance for any help

[rickztahone]

Is this something that you know for sure will happen? If so, do you have an aging barrel you can use?

Remember, when the city does things like this, they still have to fall under certain standards of the water they provide. In most cases, aging your water will be the problem solver for the high pH water. Do you know if it will be a seasonal thing?

[Kyla]

yes, they r starting the test phase this month in a small area of the city and then will be rolling it out city wide. it has been in the works since 2007 but the public is just recently hearing about it via media. i have spoken at length to a rep involved in the project and she confirmed the ph could go as high as 9.6, although it may end up being a bit lower around 9.3.

i raised concerns because the world health organization indicates the ideal disinfection rate for chlorine is under ph of 8.0, but that is why they r doing the test phase. however, it is pretty certain they will move forward after the test phase because it has already proven successful in many other municipalities.

apparently the city doesnt have much choice in the matter - they must use chemical corrosion control because the province has mandated them reaponsible for this health issue.

i have no aging barrel. ive been doing wc straight from tap for over 20 years. but i expect i would need to set one up to mix the RO in. i dont know anything about RO systems. i called a local company who said i would be looking at $1500 for the set up of a large pressurized RO tank and an atmospheric holding tank where i heat and aerate the water before pumping it into the tank. it seems like a lot. and space is an issue.

[nc0gnet0]

How many gallons a day do you use?

[rickztahone]

yes, they r starting the test phase this month in a small area of the city and then will be rolling it out city wide. it has been in the works since 2007 but the public is just recently hearing about it via media. i have spoken at length to a rep involved in the project and she confirmed the ph could go as high as 9.6, although it may end up being a bit lower around 9.3.

i raised concerns because the world health organization indicates the ideal disinfection rate for chlorine is under ph of 8.0, but that is why they r doing the test phase. however, it is pretty certain they will move forward after the test phase because it has already proven successful in many other municipalities.

apparently the city doesnt have much choice in the matter - they must use chemical corrosion control because the province has mandated them reaponsible for this health issue.

i have no aging barrel. ive been doing wc straight from tap for over 20 years. but i expect i would need to set one up to mix the RO in. i dont know anything about RO systems. i called a local company who said i would be looking at $1500 for the set up of a large pressurized RO tank and an atmospheric holding tank where i heat and aerate the water before pumping it into the tank. it seems like a lot. and space is an issue.

lmao, please do not listen to ANY of those people. If you need an RO unit, this one or one rated a little higher depending on your gallons will be just fine:
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-ro-di-system-75gpd-2.html

As far as aging barrel, you will not be able to do anything about the space, the water needs to go somewhere. However, you can place the aging barrel far away, out of sight and get a pump with a lot of head and pump the water to your tank. Recently members have been recommending one such pump and it is fairly inexpensive, something around $150 or so. Again, no where near $1500 to get things going. More like $300 or so. If it comes to that, then that is something you will have to do. With that being said, if the pH is steady at that rate (personally have never heard of it that high), then I believe you may still be able to use it. I will let water experts chime in on this though.

[Kyla]

i have 4 tanks in the basement, 27g, 65g, 180g, 210g. i need to do 50% wc per week on the 210g (minimum), and 75% every 1-2 days on the 180g, with varying wc on the 65g and 27g but assume 50% 2x per week, although it can range up to daily 80% on the 27g if i am using it for quarantine.

so i dont really know how much, but i prpb want to be able to change 100+400+65+27 ? so maybe 600g a week? minimum...

[brewmaster15]

Im wondering if you may want to try and make case against it. Theres not much reason for them to raise it higher for corrosion...The pH you mentioned of 7.4-7.6 should keep pipes fairly resistent to corrosion ...acid water is where the problem lies ...even in the Usa...I know they shoot for upper 7s in some areas...chlorine should still be effective.

If it does go through...maybe a water storage barrel and use muriatic acid to bring it down? My chemistry is rusty but it should work. You may not need RO

Al

[rickztahone]

i have 4 tanks in the basement, 27g, 65g, 180g, 210g. i need t

wow, that is a lot more gallons than I expected. However, the principle is the same, you will need higher amounts of water for sure, but it can be done for less than the price you were quoted

[nc0gnet0]

I actually think a PH of over 9.0 might be a bit to high even if stable. Remember the pH scale is logarithmic, so a ph of 9 is ten time more alkaline then that of a pH of 8.0. I really find it hard to believe that it would be that high though, seems awful extreme.

[rickztahone]

I actually think a PH of over 9.0 might be a bit to high even if stable. Remember the pH scale is logarithmic, so a ph of 9 is ten time more alkaline then that of a pH of 8.0. I really find it hard to believe that it would be that high though, seems awful extreme.

Here's a water expert, listen to me. Being that I have never heard of pH that high, I would defer to Rick's advice and probably not use it and also do as Al says and get an RO unit and possibly raise your concerns with the city or speak to your local neighbors about it.

[Kyla]

i plan to go to the public info session this week, but im not optimistic it can be stopped. there are a few others speaking out loudly about it for health reasons, and a petition to stop it was circulated without effect.

i did call all of the local fish stores to give them the heads up (none of them were aware).

i dont understand how an aging barrell lowers the ph? would it hurt the fish to have more chemicals added? there is a chemist attending the info session... i may be able to ask him some f these questions. so far the ppl i have spoken to have never considered the effects of this on local fish keepers until i spoke to them :/

[DJW]

Kyla, I would ask the chemist at the meeting if the pH will be really that high. It doesn't sound right. The city of Portland, Oregon targets a pH of 7.8 to 8.0 to control lead.

I use a 200gpd RO, for other reasons. If pH is was the only problem, and I had to choose between RO and muriatic acid, I would probably go with acid in a barrel or IBC. To produce 600 gallons/week of RO you will be wasting about three times that much down the drain, which will increase your water bill (if its metered there).

NaOH will also effect the GH and KH... maybe the chemist can address that as well.

[Filip]

I think that NaOh can dissipate out of water if you age the water thus lowering to a stable and lower ph.
Ask your chemist to confirm this info.
Or better yet, test it your self,before and after ageing with airstone and heater.

[Filip]

I think that NaOh can dissipate out of water if you age the water thus lowering to a stable and lower ph.
Ask your chemist to confirm this info.
Or better yet, test it your self,before and after ageing with airstone and heater.

P.s This way you can only do the job with ageing barrel and a pump.

[Dudley Eirich]

As a PhD scientist, I am a reasonable chemist. If the pH does get that high, I would first try using an aging barrel (with pump) and lowering the pH with muriatic acid. If the municipality is using sodium hydroxide to raise the pH, simply aging the water will probably not lower the pH sufficiently to get it down into the safe range. Using muriatic acid to lower the pH will neutralize the sodium hydroxide and produce sodium chloride, i.e. table salt, so your total dissolved solids (TDS) will increase. Neither of these should have a long-lasting negative effect on discus. The lower the target pH, the more salt and and higher levels of TDS you will generate, so, if you want to go from a pH above 9.0 to your current pH value of about 7.5, it may require adding quite a bit of muriatic acid. If you want to keep your dissolved solids low for breeding purposes, then you might want to target a pH above 8.0, but you will need to slowly acclimate your fish to the higher pH value. After lowering the pH with muriatic acid, you should check the pH after aging for 24 hours. If it is stable, you may not need to actually age the water, but can simply use the aging barrel to adjust pH to the desired value.

[brewmaster15]

As a PhD scientist, I am a reasonable chemist. If the pH does get that high, I would first try using an aging barrel (with pump) and lowering the pH with muriatic acid. If the municipality is using sodium hydroxide to raise the pH, simply aging the water will probably not lower the pH sufficiently to get it down into the safe range. Using muriatic acid to lower the pH will neutralize the sodium hydroxide and produce sodium chloride, i.e. table salt, so your total dissolved solids (TDS) will increase. Neither of these should have a long-lasting negative effect on discus. The lower the target pH, the more salt and and higher levels of TDS you will generate, so, if you want to go from a pH above 9.0 to your current pH value of about 7.5, it may require adding quite a bit of muriatic acid. If you want to keep your dissolved solids low for breeding purposes, then you might want to target a pH above 8.0, but you will need to slowly acclimate your fish to the higher pH value. After lowering the pH with muriatic acid, you should check the pH after aging for 24 hours. If it is stable, you may not need to actually age the water, but can simply use the aging barrel to adjust pH to the desired value.

Thanks Dudley! I'm glad my chemistry was not rusty.:) Thanks for confirming.

al

[Kyla]

thank you so much for the info guys! i will def be passing this onto others in my area as well!!

[Dudley Eirich]

Thanks Dudley! I'm glad my chemistry was not rusty.:) Thanks for confirming.

al

Al, I thought that your answer was a very good one but wanted to give you a bit of support and a plus provide some added information. Since we discus fan(atic)s deal a lot with water, pH, and TDS, the more water chemistry one knows, the better. By the way, you do a great job of providing solid advice as well as sharing you knowledge, plus you do it with patience and gentleness, and that is important, especially with newbies. Thank you!

[Dudley Eirich]

It always bothers me when municipalities make dramatic changes to the characteristics of their water. There are many uses for municipal water and the demands vary depending on whether the end user is a residence or an industry. Those who love tropical fish know the importance of providing a healthy and stable water environment, but industries also have similar requirements. If this municipality is really going to raise the pH up to 9.6, there could be unforeseen consequences for industries that depend on the water supply for cooling, steam generation, or as make-up water for a particular formulation. pH values in that high range can speed up undesirable chemical reactions that could result in equipment failures or end products that don't meet specifications.

[brewmaster15]

Al, I thought that your answer was a very good one but wanted to give you a bit of support and a plus provide some added information. Since we discus fan(atic)s deal a lot with water, pH, and TDS, the more water chemistry one knows, the better. By the way, you do a great job of providing solid advice as well as sharing you knowledge, plus you do it with patience and gentleness, and that is important, especially with newbies. Thank you!
Thank you very Much Dudley!!:)

[DJW]

Flint, Michigan has been in the news lately because they switched the city's water source to the Flint River, which apparently has a lower pH and is causing elevated levels of lead. Everything I read on this subject indicates that targeting a pH of 8.0 by the addition of Sodium Hydroxide is adequate to prevent metals corrosion.

Here is an article on the problem in Flint that discusses pH:

http://michiganradio.org/post/flint-had-no-plan-minimize-lead-corrosion-peoples-drinking-water-post-river-switch

I have well water, so I'm not subjected to these changes in the water... but well water has its disadvantages and challenges too. Nitrates, pH swing, and bacteria, to name a few.

[brano]

What do you guys think about ph8.6?

[Clawhammer]

Kyla, I would ask the chemist at the meeting if the pH will be really that high. It doesn't sound right. The city of Portland, Oregon targets a pH of 7.8 to 8.0 to control lead.

I use a 200gpd RO, for other reasons. If pH is was the only problem, and I had to choose between RO and muriatic acid, I would probably go with acid in a barrel or IBC. To produce 600 gallons/week of RO you will be wasting about three times that much down the drain, which will increase your water bill (if its metered there).

NaOH will also effect the GH and KH... maybe the chemist can address that as well.

I live in Portland, and I have been told that they target 8.1 w/ NaOH to prevent lead pipes from leaching into the water. However, when on the standard water source, which is Bull Run (very low TDS and KH), the water is pH 6.8 by the time it hits my tap, and is very stable thereafter (decreases about .2 pH to 6.6 over 24 hours). You may never see anywhere near 9.3 out of your tap.

Good luck to you!!

[Kyla]

just to follow-up on this thread, our test phase is complete and my city is planning to add the sodium hydroxide to the water supply city-wide in july 2017 (last i heard). i think they are still aiming for the 9.6ph range but the employee i spoke to at the city said the ph level out of the tap might change a little depending how far away each home is from the water plant itself.

i obtained a water sample containing sodium hydroxide from the city to experiment with and when i first tested it this was the starting result:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/C21A813C-026E-471D-A3F0-3E4A90C37A69_zpsmbelrtj9.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C21A813C-026E-471D-A3F0-3E4A90C37A69_zpsmbelrtj9.jpg.html)

after aging the water with an airstone this is where it levelled out at:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/8BE6F98E-D762-4071-9D1D-C8974CF6A4E5_zpslvfnaqsn.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/8BE6F98E-D762-4071-9D1D-C8974CF6A4E5_zpslvfnaqsn.jpg.html)

many of the local aquarists here arent ready for this change, unfortunately (they dont seem concerned about the ph swings at all), but im def not taking chances with my fish. ive downsized my hobby in anticipation and have set up a large aging barrel for regular wc - all thanks to the kind folk here who helped me to better understand my water chemistry. this forum has been an invaluable source of quality info and support.