Help please cant get past week 5/6 with fry

[siral]

I have a Heckel male who has paired with a female Red Melon i was not really interested in breeding Discus and only decide to do so as they were laying eggs all of the time and causing fighting in the tank with the other discus.
So i took the pair out of the tank and put them in 120 litre tank. They laid eggs there was about 100 that hatched so i lowered the water for a couple of days so they could attach, they would only go to the male. After about 10-14 days they were about 50 free swimming so i started to add some baby brine shrimp just a small amount at a time. Round about this time the male took a total dislike to the female so i had to take her out as he was chasing her and head butting her constantly.
With her out the male settled again and was really good with the fry.

I have a Large bio filter one for 380 litre tank for my 120 litre tank i was doing 50% water change twice a day and thought everything was going well. At about week 4 the male started getting stressed either the baby brine shrimp in his gills or just had enough. Started to get worried about him so had to take him out.

A week to two weeks after him going out this is when my problems start the last time i had 37 fry when i had to take him out then they just start dropping of one by one quite rapidly.
I was told to use Methelene Blue on the fry and then about 4 weeks to worm the fry.
This is my forth time and i think i am doing everything right but obviously I AM NOT thought i was there getting close to week 7 and then boom they were gone.

Due to me going this far i am now determined to try and breed the discus.
If anyone that could give me some advice on anything i can try i would really be greatfull.

[Akili]

By four week the fry should be in a tank of their own and eating solid foods

[siral]

By four week the fry should be in a tank of their own and eating solid foods

It is usually about week 4 i have been taking the male out of the tank and they are eating the baby brine shrimp as i said i am doing something majorly wrong and am looking for the do's and dont so i don't do the same again
thanks

[Akili]

It is usually about week 4 i have been taking the male out of the tank and they are eating the baby brine shrimp as i said i am doing something majorly wrong and am looking for the do's and dont so i don't do the same again
thanksAt 3 weeks old if the Fry this size are eating well on their own you should remove them if not they can irritate or damage the parent.Feed the 4 to 6 times a day and Increase the amount of water changes in the grow out tank.

[MD.David]

This seems to be an on going theme here. I am struggling with the same thing, howevèr I was successful for a few years and never struggled with this until, I moved to another city with obviously a different water source, now I am experiencing just as you are.
This is my thread, I'm sure you have read it:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122387-Fry-dying-with-no-end-in-sight!

Over this challenge I have had to do a lot of research on water (here on SD and other resource), and I can tell you this, water is far more complicated then I ever emagined since my last year of college chemistry class (about 13 years ago).
This is what I have come to know so far:
Majority of all tap water provided by and treated by towns and cities (can be) not as clean or sterile as we assume. Most cities treat with a combination of ozone and chlorine, there is micro Bactria and micro parasites that are very chemical resistant. These little guys such as "Cryptosporidium" can live in city treated water quite easily.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidium
they are 4-6 microns in size which means it's possible they can pass thru a filter system as well.
I also read there is micro bacterium that can pass thru even RO filter membrains as well.
The GOOD NEWS is many other hobby breeders have experienced the same thing and have over come this challenge.
I have read many have put high quality, commercial grade "UV sterilizers" on there fish room water source or whole house system.
So far I have concluded this if the fry are dying off like as we are describing.
1. Could be flukes (treat with paraguard or prozipro or formaldehyde and malachite green, 1cc of formaldehyde per two gallons for 30-60mins well aerated).
2.could be a protozoan (I've been told to treat with copper, others said to treat with prozi, I tried prozi made minimal difference on the die off rate but it simply could have been too late).
3. It's you water source, you are actually putting the problem in your tank every time you change the water, (there is a very real possibly that your water source is the problem, whole house filtration system with a high quality UV steriler).

If your tanks are clean and your wiping down the inner glass daily and changing almost 100% daily and your feeding good quality food, I would start to look in other directions then your cleanliness habits. I am starting to adopt the belief system that a (possibly) majority of hobby breeding issues (when it comes to fry) could be a water source problem.

The micro bacterium, protozoan and parasites that could be chlorine resistant and other chemical resist tend to be very UV sensitive, which is very good news for people like us, I have read threads where people struggled like us to no end in sight, they put a UV filter on their entire house or fish room water source, and their problems disappeared like magic.
I don't know how true this is because I have yet to install my UV filter yet, I did order and very high quality commercial grade UV filter and will install it this week.
I will keep everyone posted on my results but at least it's a start in a positive direction that has fixed other people's problem.

[Rudustin]

I hope that there are more inputs from experienced hobby breeders or breeders in general about this problem. I have fry that are about to reach their four week birthday on this coming wednesday. They seem fine at the moment. I wipe down the tank every day and do 100 percent water changes every day sometimes two times a day. They are growing fast and I hope that I get over this hump of four weeks that I keep hearing about. The parents are still in with the fry and the pair seem to still be very devoted to the fry at this point.

[MD.David]

I have several pairs all going at the same time, I've done about 10 or more spawns with all the same out come (4-6 weeks all die off).
At discus enthusiasts we pride ourselves as being "king of the aquarium" with our superb water quality and cleanliness habits. I see little emphasis put on the water source, (which in my opinion) should be just as important (if not more for obvious reasons) as daily water changes. The biggest challenge is city's don't test for water quality as discus keepers would need. Safe water for human consumption and discus breeding are worlds apart.
I would suggest any discus breeder that is successful has either been lucky with the water source or has taken responsibility and done the necessary steps to have superb water quality from the source to begin with.


I hope that there are more inputs from experienced hobby breeders or breeders in general about this problem. I have fry that are about to reach their four week birthday on this coming wednesday. They seem fine at the moment. I wipe down the tank every day and do 100 percent water changes every day sometimes two times a day. They are growing fast and I hope that I get over this hump of four weeks that I keep hearing about. The parents are still in with the fry and the pair seem to still be very devoted to the fry at this point.

[Jason.M]

Try using an aging barrel filled with hot water only from the hot water heater, then allow it to cool to temp before using. That should kill anything present in the water. That is of course if your not using RO water, which its my understanding the fry do not require, so having them in your tap water shouldn't be an issue. I could be way off, just a suggestion. I haven't bred discus, and have not experienced the 4 week die off with any species I have bred.

[siral]

Thanks for all the responses
I live in Scotland so the water is quite a soft water generally but have tried different methods with the water trying to get rid of the chlorene as this seems to be the biggest problem in our water supply for our fish. I normally use Aquasafe don't know if it is different in the rest of the world. Iv tried using filling a 220 litre tank up heating it with an air stone in it for a couple of days to try aeriate it to get rid of the chlorene.
Mr David
Funny you mention a uv stabiliser but my friend and i were just talking about that last night with using a type of the old fashioned filter canister set-up the clip on type on the outside of the tank and then going through a uv stabiliser and back into the tank to see if this helps. I know you were talking about at the source of our feed of water. I think i'm going to have a closer look at the Uv side of things. I spoke to someone recently who had some fry the last time i saw them and they were the same got to week 4-5 died. They do have an RO system in there set-up and they had there water checked properly as someone in there family checks there water for them through the water board. And it came back just with chlorene traces.

At the moment i am in the process of changing my tanks and was wanting to try a sump set up being filled through an RO filter system. This is going to be a while before i get this system up and running.

Akilli
We were increasing the amount of food the fry were getting and thought food wise they were content could be wrong but they were eating quite well. I checked the ph levels on the tank twice dailly sorry i cant remember the levels just now but did not think there was a problem with the levels. With us doing basically nearly a 100% water change daily thought this was the way togo. But the fry kept dying so i could of been way ofF!!

[Rudustin]

I have several pairs all going at the same time, I've done about 10 or more spawns with all the same out come (4-6 weeks all die off).
At discus enthusiasts we pride ourselves as being "king of the aquarium" with our superb water quality and cleanliness habits. I see little emphasis put on the water source, (which in my opinion) should be just as important (if not more for obvious reasons) as daily water changes. The biggest challenge is city's don't test for water quality as discus keepers would need. Safe water for human consumption and discus breeding are worlds apart.
I would suggest any discus breeder that is successful has either been lucky with the water source or has taken responsibility and done the necessary steps to have superb water quality from the source to begin with.I live in Miami Beach, Florida. The water quality here has been very good for some time. I cannot say that for Miami city proper or the county of Dade which is the larger water source. I do know that restaurants and hotels here in Miami Beach pride themselves on being able to cook and drink directly from the tap. I use Tap water without aging the water at all times of the year. I have been very successful in keeping discus(eight tanks of them) for a number of years. This is the first time I took a serious tone to breeding discus. The spawn is doing really well so far. I think you are right that the water source is an important concept for all discus keepers. I do know that several years ago Dade county had trouble with their water sourcing and a series of water conduit breaks caused many discus keepers in the area some very devastating issues. So far I have been lucky I think with the source of the water and also the building I live in (condo). I will keep looking for this thread and updating as well what happens in the next few weeks to my fry. Rufus

[MD.David]

Hi Rufus,
Thanks for the positive dialog, I too have been successful in keeping and breeding, I recently moved to another county with a different water source and the challenges I have now are nothing I have experienced before.
I would suggest you may be very lucky with a good water source for your discus.

More over I will offer some food for thought for any one reading this thread:
"My water source is very clean with high quality water."
How do you know this??? Because the city says so??
I would remind people that there are thousands of miles of city/county water piping, it is virtually impossible to monitor the water quality going to every residence.

I recently called my city water department and asked what types of things they test for, they told me they only test for salmonella , E. coli , and coliform bacteria. These are the three major dangerous bacteria they seem to test for, as far as all the rest that can wipe out our beloved creatures, they do not test for that, mainly because it's not dangerous to humans.
I have read a lot on these forums where people just can't figure out what their doing wrong, but most times then not we encore the biggest factor that our city water may not be as good for our discus as we think merely because we can drink the tap water, just as if we vacationed to a South American country we may get undesired effects from drinking there water, but after a time, our bacteria in our gut or colon would adapt and we would be as normal as before, the same would happen if someone from El Salvador Traveled and drank the water from red deer Alberta. The water may be "clean" to all government standards, but I assure everyone there are many many types of microscopic creatures that are not healthy for us more our discus and are very resistant to municipal/county water chemical treatment.
So down the water cleaning/quality road we walk down.



I live in Miami Beach, Florida. The water quality here has been very good for some time. I cannot say that for Miami city proper or the county of Dade which is the larger water source. I do know that restaurants and hotels here in Miami Beach pride themselves on being able to cook and drink directly from the tap. I use Tap water without aging the water at all times of the year. I have been very successful in keeping discus(eight tanks of them) for a number of years. This is the first time I took a serious tone to breeding discus. The spawn is doing really well so far. I think you are right that the water source is an important concept for all discus keepers. I do know that several years ago Dade county had trouble with their water sourcing and a series of water conduit breaks caused many discus keepers in the area some very devastating issues. So far I have been lucky I think with the source of the water and also the building I live in (condo). I will keep looking for this thread and updating as well what happens in the next few weeks to my fry. Rufus

[John_Nicholson]

Not 100% sure what to add but here you go.....If the parents are healthy ( i.e. not giving flukes to the fry ) and you are keeping the water clean you should not be losing any fry. In my spawns I seldom lose any fry that I don't cull myself. Not an exaggeration....I don't lose any. I start feeding my fry LOTS of BBS when they are young. By 3 weeks they are normally starting to hit the beef heart pretty well. I change at least 50% of the water a day. I normally feed in the morning, siphon the tank and refill. Feed in the evenings and change at least 50% of the water. If it is a large spawn ( over 250 ) I will often change the water twice a day. As the fry grow I split the spawn into multiple tanks.

This has worked for me for a very long time.

-john

[Discuschill]

Hi John! just a quick question--


How early do you begin culling?

We feed mainly brine shrimp early on as well. Should there be a concern about dehydration if we feed brine shrimp, or should we supplement?

Thanks!

[John_Nicholson]

I don't normally cull until they are at least an inch. At that point I cull if a see a bad fin or a belly slider. Something that is obvious. Other than that I do not cull until probably 3 inches or so. I would say no on the dehydration. My fry only eat BBS and beef heart.

-john

[Fishquake]

So John you're saying that a fry a don't die unless you kill it? :)

[John_Nicholson]

So John you're saying that a fry a don't die unless you kill it? :)

Yes.

-john

[MD.David]

I would think these are the results of a few factors, i) very clean environment, ii) superb water source, iii) great diet
I am starting to think (after reading so may threads) many people fail for reason ii, this would explain no mater how much water they change, no matter how "clean" they make the tank, no matter how healthy the diet is and they still have failures.


Yes.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

My water source is acceptable but not great. I do use RO waste water for my growouts, which means it has been run through carbon before hitting the tanks. I also treat it with safe.

-john

[MD.David]

How do you know your water "is acceptable but not great"?
The fact you have outstanding results would suggest you have "great" water.
Why do you say this?
I'm very interested to know the reasoning behind this?


My water source is acceptable but not great. I do use RO waste water for my growouts, which means it has been run through carbon before hitting the tanks. I also treat it with safe.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

I asked the water company for a report and I read it. There are lots of people on here that have better water than I do. That is why I work so hard to have my success.

-john

[MD.David]

I'm interested in this water report, what did it have on it?
My city water company doesn't seem to care much, they won't provide any type of report.... Actually pretty crazy.


I asked the water company for a report and I read it. There are lots of people on here that have better water than I do. That is why I work so hard to have my success.

-john

[MattArmstrong]

John, if you do decide to detail your water details, and anything else you might consider "not-so-secret sauce" I think you should do it in a new thread. Nobody will think to look in this one! ;-)

[MD.David]

If you do post your water "secret" post the link here so we other members may follow it.
I have come to the conclusion that water quality and water science is (quite possibly) a key success factor in raising and breeding discus successfully.

Cheers mate and I hope you consider Sharing with us.


John, if you do decide to detail your water details, and anything else you might consider "not-so-secret sauce" I think you should do it in a new thread. Nobody will think to look in this one! ;-)

[John_Nicholson]

Sorry folks there are no secrets. Healthy fish, good food, and keep the water clean and at 82 degrees. It really is that easy.

-john

[Rudustin]

I said that I would let the OP know how my fry are doing at the four week stage. They are doing really well!!! Lot's of water changes and fed five times a day. Aqua bites crushed up, crushed up FDBWs, BBS as well. They seem to eat everything and they have grown really well. I still use tap water and they get water changes twice a day. Second one is always at night before I go to bed so there is no left over food on in the tank. Like John said I think it is a combination of healthy stock, good food and keep the water clean and at 82 degrees. By the way I ceased to test my water years ago. Rufus

[MD.David]

When your that experienced and that successful it is that easy.
For the rest of us we will keep perfecting our craft.

Cheers mate and thanks for all your awesome experiences you have shared!



Sorry folks there are no secrets. Healthy fish, good food, and keep the water clean and at 82 degrees. It really is that easy.

-john

[CliffsDiscus]

I use Culligan water system for my operation and so do most of my LFS for a better quality of water. I'm not sure if the water is the problem for losing your
fry, since Discus are not disease free unless they are artifically raised, even then
once mix with non-artifically they become the same. As far back as in the 80's expert breeders were losing fry that were kept
with the parents for 2 weeks, the solution was to remove the fry within one week and place they in a sterile tank.

Cliff

[monching]

Not 100% sure what to add but here you go.....If the parents are healthy ( i.e. not giving flukes to the fry ) and you are keeping the water clean you should not be losing any fry. In my spawns I seldom lose any fry that I don't cull myself. Not an exaggeration....I don't lose any. I start feeding my fry LOTS of BBS when they are young. By 3 weeks they are normally starting to hit the beef heart pretty well. I change at least 50% of the water a day. I normally feed in the morning, siphon the tank and refill. Feed in the evenings and change at least 50% of the water. If it is a large spawn ( over 250 ) I will often change the water twice a day. As the fry grow I split the spawn into multiple tanks.

This has worked for me for a very long time.

-john

So how will one knows if your pair is harbouring any decease like gill fluke? Say mine is with me since they're 1.5". small, now they are 6++ after a year and a half in great and healthy condition but can't seem to successfully raise fry. Mine starts dropping dead one by one after 10 days of free swimming. Water parameters are all normal. From 50+ fry I'm now down to about 15. Can't seem to arrest the problem. HELP

[warblad79]

So how will one knows if your pair is harbouring any decease like gill fluke? Say mine is with me since they're 1.5". small, now they are 6++ after a year and a half in great and healthy condition but can't seem to successfully raise fry. Mine starts dropping dead one by one after 10 days of free swimming. Water parameters are all normal. From 50+ fry I'm now down to about 15. Can't seem to arrest the problem. HELP

I thought you're already successful, as I as recall from previous thread. my mortality rate is also very low. I feed my fry BBS 3 days after free swimming. I change my water 50% in the morning and 80%- 100% at night and I used aged tap water water with SAFE added. I've been doing this routine for the past 3 years and I raised more than 1,000 fry. The secret is simple, keep the water clean by doing a lot of water change make sure use aged water. I removed the parents for about 14 days

[monching]

I thought you're already successful, as I as recall from previous thread. my mortality rate is also very low. I feed my fry BBS 3 days after free swimming. I change my water 50% in the morning and 80%- 100% at night and I used aged tap water water with SAFE added. I've been doing this routine for the past 3 years and I raised more than 1,000 fry. The secret is simple, keep the water clean by doing a lot of water change make sure use aged water. I removed the parents for about 14 days
Is this a sarcastic question or what. If you have a retentive memory warblad, in my post there is a ( i hope ) caption. I'm not a seasoned perfect all knowing guy like you. I'm just your normal hobbyist trying to learn what needs to be learned with the help of the more understanding gurus of the forum who have an open mind in trying to help little old me not like some people out there that instead of helping, their trying to put some of us down. I've doing all that you just have said to the letter, clean age water everyday. All parameters are normal. Same reason I came across this thread, trying to find an answer and learn what needs to be learned. I'm sorry if I'm not as successful as most of you guys but I'm still hoping I'll get there. I'm still in my learning curves in terms of discus keeping anyway. Cheers:jester::jester::jester:

[John_Nicholson]

If I were you I would send some of the fry to a fish pathologist and have them checked out. You can get a microscope and check for gill flukes yourself but by sending some in they can be checked out for everything else also.....

Did I mention one of the NADA speakers is a fish pathologist ?

-john

[monching]

If I were you I would send some of the fry to a fish pathologist and have them checked out. You can get a microscope and check for gill flukes yourself but by sending some in they can be checked out for everything else also.....

Did I mention one of the NADA speakers is a fish pathologist ?


-john

I would love to do that, will look for one near me.

Thanks John

Ramon

[warblad79]

Is this a sarcastic question or what. If you have a retentive memory warblad, in my post there is a ( i hope ) caption. I'm not a seasoned perfect all knowing guy like you. I'm just your normal hobbyist trying to learn what needs to be learned with the help of the more understanding gurus of the forum who have an open mind in trying to help little old me not like some people out there that instead of helping, their trying to put some of us down. I've doing all that you just have said to the letter, clean age water everyday. All parameters are normal. Same reason I came across this thread, trying to find an answer and learn what needs to be learned. I'm sorry if I'm not as successful as most of you guys but I'm still hoping I'll get there. I'm still in my learning curves in terms of discus keeping anyway. Cheers:jester::jester::jester:

You're way overreacting and no one is trying to put you down.

[monching]

You're way overreacting and no one is trying to put you down.
You can't blame me for reacting dude. From the very start that you reply on my posts there's always this element of one being better than the other thingy. Just my opinion and I believe I'm entitled to it. Cheers:jester::jester: