High Body and Bulldog Discus

[discushobbies]

I am confused by the two. Are they both the same? Was the bulldog gene used to create a high body discus?

[Ryan]

They are not the same.

High-body discus are discus which are more tall than they are long. Preferably they will have a normal face with a smooth, rounded chin and forehead like discus should. There are varying degrees of "high body" and it also falls under different names (standing egg, for instance).

Bulldog discus are discus that, IMO, have a short spine. This causes both their face and tail to appear as if it's being sucked inward toward their body. I am now seeing a lot of discus whose faces look normal but their tails aren't. I firmly believe it's because of all the bulldog genetics being bred into various lines. I've drawn arrows on a fish I had. It had a normal face, but you'll see how the tail kind of draws in, almost making a heart shape at the rear of the body.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/bulldog_zpsuxzhkjrc.jpg

We can discuss all day whether or not bulldog traits are a positive or negative, but IMO a short spine is a defect and should be culled for. This is the same deformity that allows for "balloon" fish such as mollies and rams, and also for "short-bodied" cichlids or jellybean parrot cichlids. These deformities usually go hand in hand with faces that are smashed in or misshapen, which is an easy way to tell bulldogs apart from tall discus.

For contrast, here are a couple high-body fish I recently sold to someone. Notice that although the fish are tall, the facial profile is normal (not dented in like bulldogs) and the tail end of the body doesn't draw inward.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/IMG_0899_zps8ur28zox.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/IMG_0391_zpsxjhigbn7.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

As was said above they are different. In my opinion a bulldog is a cull. A high body fish might or might not be a cull. It depends on how high bodies it is. The fish are called discus because they are suppose to be round. If someone sees a fish that is longer than it is tall they consider it a low quality fish. Why should one that is taller than it is long be looked at any different? Both are deviating from the goal implied by the name....i.e. round.

-john

[Jack L]

does the name "bulldog" relate back to K-9 bull dogs shape?

searching didn't answer my question, but this was a good find!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?104193-these-on-craigslist-rare-shaped-body&highlight=bulldog

[nc0gnet0]

I am confused by the two. Are they both the same? Was the bulldog gene used to create a high body discus?

There is no such thing as a bulldog "gene"

[discushobbies]

There is no such thing as a bulldog "gene"

I say this because I was reading an old thread, http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113312-Lawrence-s-Bulldog-Discus

Because Lawrence said that, he would cross a bulldog A, B, C, he would get either a high body and bulldog.

I do believe that it has something to do with the genetics. The bulldog shape was a mutation that resulted in the DNA, which resulted in the spine deformities. I just want to know where the high body come from. Is it also a mutation, you would say? Or more a growth factor?

[John_Nicholson]

I know where Rick is going with this. We all get a bulldog or two in some spawns. Most of us have the good sense to cull them, but some are starting to breed for the defect.

-john

[Ryan]

I know where Rick is going with this. We all get a bulldog or two in some spawns. Most of us have the good sense to cull them, but some are starting to breed for the defect.

-john

Right. It's not necessarily a bulldog "gene" in the sense that you have a stripeless gene or a pigeon gene, but when people start selectively breeding deformed fish you'll start to get higher percentages of deformed fry.

[nc0gnet0]

I say this because I was reading an old thread, http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113312-Lawrence-s-Bulldog-Discus

Because Lawrence said that, he would cross a bulldog A, B, C, he would get either a high body and bulldog.

I do believe that it has something to do with the genetics. The bulldog shape was a mutation that resulted in the DNA, which resulted in the spine deformities. I just want to know where the high body come from. Is it also a mutation, you would say? Or more a growth factor?

Gene is singular inferring that the deformity is controlled by one allele. If this were the case it would behave in a much more Mendelian fashion.

There is a trend over the last few years by the Asian breeders to use the term "gene" in entirely the wrong syntax. While many of the attributes are indeed genetic, they are in fact multigenetic (controlled by more than one gene). Examples of such:

Bulldog gene
Round gene
Ring Gene
Deep blue gene
etc, etc.

[DISCUS STU]

Here's a "Bulldog", which is different than a "High Body". The Bulldog is not something I would purchase given a choice. I raised this one of two from a juvenile and wan't crazy about the result. I really wasn't expecting this.

There is no round disk shape at all in this fish. It looks more like an egg. High
Body or Bulldog I prefer a symmetrical, round fish with good proportions. Why these strains are developed and sold is beyond me. 93260

[discushobbies]

Right. It's not necessarily a bulldog "gene" in the sense that you have a stripeless gene or a pigeon gene, but when people start selectively breeding deformed fish you'll start to get higher percentages of deformed fry.

If a bulldog discus was bred with a normal discus, the chances of getting bulldogs is higher?

[John_Nicholson]

Yes....not that any right minded individual would want to do such a thing......

-john

[bluelagoon]

HERE!HERE,I second that statement.

[Rod]

The bulldog gene and its variations look to me like a fish version of the condition known as Achondroplasia or disproportionate dwarfism. Many of the traits are similar especially traits like head, face & spinal anomalies. Lots of familiar dog breeds including dachshund, basset hound, corgis and perhaps not surprisingly, the bulldog have these traits as well. It is also well known in humans with 1 per 25, 000 occurrence.
Lawrence Soon from Penang mentioned they are commonly used in producing show winner discus, and some of our older members might remember a guy called JimmyL i think it was , in Canada, that made similar claims many years ago. He said they produce a wide range of forms when crossed out, which as Rick said above, indicates multiple alleles controlling these traits. Some specimens will have a particularly attractive shape and are used for shows.
Personally, i think there is too many poor quality specimens produced using these as breeders, so i wouldn't go that way. It would be difficult to stabilize them into a strain, and imo they are a genetic dead end.

[Second Hand Pat]

what you guys think of these

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/dexchung/12316063_10153623438796418_667175469886150223_n_zp selnkgcgq.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dexchung/media/12316063_10153623438796418_667175469886150223_n_zp selnkgcgq.jpg.html)



http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/dexchung/12316063_10153623438801418_2544518509474688094_n_z ps8lipgmtq.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dexchung/media/12316063_10153623438801418_2544518509474688094_n_z ps8lipgmtq.jpg.html)

Cool Dex, a high bodied wild discus :)
Pat

[John_Nicholson]

No one ever said that wild fish were free of deformities.....

-john

[nc0gnet0]

what you guys think of these

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/dexchung/12316063_10153623438796418_667175469886150223_n_zp selnkgcgq.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dexchung/media/12316063_10153623438796418_667175469886150223_n_zp selnkgcgq.jpg.html)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/dexchung/12316063_10153623438801418_2544518509474688094_n_z ps8lipgmtq.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dexchung/media/12316063_10153623438801418_2544518509474688094_n_z ps8lipgmtq.jpg.html)

I would consider that a high body, its ok, but in regards to shape I would prefer this:

93342

[jdhuyvetter]

I was never a fan. Pics above remind me of the hi-body Gan discus of the 90's. A couple of my RB's in my growout tank have hi-bodies to them. Not to the extreme as these, but still not thrilled. Since I don't plan on breeding them, I will keep them in the plant tank. I'm very happy with the color and pattern, just not thrilled with the shape.

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=jdhuyvetter;1192085]I was never a fan. Pics above remind me of the hi-body Gan discus of the 90

Yes, the Gan Brothers, they were winning those Aquarama back then. They called their hi body BlueBat or RedBat Discus, some of their Discus had a strong
Wattley bloodline in them. I crossed my Wattley with the Gan just to bring up the size.

Cliff

[Jack L]

I would consider that a high body, its ok, but in regards to shape I would prefer this:

93342

+1

the santarem one is oval

[John_Nicholson]

+1

the santarem one is oval

Sometimes camera angles can be deceiving........

-john

[rickztahone]

Sometimes camera angles can be deceiving........

-john

+1

Take it from a photographer, there are many things you can do to make a photo deceiving. Angles are a huge part of it.