Accidental breeding

[HappyFace]

I had no intention of ever breeding discus. I have six 6-7" discus in a bare bottom 200g (I had planned to put tile in next week). They reside with four 2.5" angels and 2 zebra plecos. I've had the discus for a little over 1 week. Temp is 85, 50% wc daily through a continuous drip system of prefiltered water.

I walked in to feed tonight and saw a bunch of eggs on the fake plastic holey rock being guarded by my Albino rabbit pink eye and blue diamond high fin. What are the chances they will hatch in 7.5ph and what color combinations of babies would they produce if they did hatch?

[Keith Perkins]

The pH of the water won't have much if any affect on the likelihood of the eggs hatching, discus spawn just fine in a wide range of pH's. The questions really are are the two fish a true pair, male and female, and if they are did the male fertilize the eggs. The odds that they aren't a true pair or that even if they are the male didn't do his part are a lot higher than you might think. Quite honestly only time will tell, and that's with the big assumption the eggs aren't eating by someone before that point.

As for what that pair would produce, someone else is going to have to come by and answer that one. I don't know what the heck an albino rabbit pink eye is supposed to be first off, and second interesting things happen sometimes when BDs are involved. Hopefully Rick or someone will come along and answer that question.

[HappyFace]

Thank you for your response Keith.

I'm not sure how White Rabbits are made but the description where I bought them says a "Yellow Diamond-like Body with Albino Pink Eyes." The discus looks like an albino to me, maybe with a bit more yellow. I've been reading about genetics and it appears there is no way to tell what you're going to get with both albinos and blues unless you know their parentage.

[DISCUS STU]

It may take them a few tries before a viable hatch occurs. Assuming it's a real pair.

I have a pair of Red Turquoise that are getting progressively better at it as the first clutch wasn't fertilized at all by the male, the second one barely, the third slightly better, and by the fifth they were getting there. Both exhibit true pair bonding and parental behavior but the male was new at this and I think his tube needed to get cleared as I was raising him in somewhat hard water. At least that's my theory.

I'm saying this by way of adding that it's a true process and usually doesn't happen the first time out. Assuming that you eventually you see a wiggling mass of small black dots with small tales then you know there good to go. At that time you'll need to remove them to their own quarters as the prospects of raising fry in a community tank are practically nil.

As for the genetics, it may be all over the place or a true combination of both parents. Someone with more experience can probably better to venture an educated guess than I.

[HappyFace]

Thank you DiscusStu. They probably don't have a chance then even if the eggs are fertilized. I had no intention of breeding and I don't want to setup another tank. They will have to be like the wild where they defend and protect their young or lose them.

The good thing is I am understocked with only 6 discus and 4 angels in a 200 gallon and I had only planned to purchase 2 more if I can ever find what I'm looking for.

Sorry to go off topic but I noticed within days of getting the discus they stopped schooling. Is this normal? I thought they would always remaing in a huddled group but no, they spread out, no bickering or trying to assert domination over eachother. The 4 unpaired discus meander into the breeding pairs territory and get "corrected" back to the other 3/4ths of the tank but they never school anymore. They seem very happy though and they all eat a lot.

[rickztahone]

Whatever happens, those are 2 nice looking discus

[HappyFace]

Whatever happens, those are 2 nice looking discus

Thank you Ricardo!

[DISCUS STU]

Whatever happens, those are 2 nice looking discus

Here here!

[HappyFace]

Here here!

Thank you Discus Stu! The eggs look different today, like there are babies inside some of them. Maybe I am just being hopeful? It's been about 36 hours.

[Keith Perkins]

No, unless the pictures are deceiving me, I think you're at least going to have a confirmed pair.

Just curious, what part of the world are you in?

[HappyFace]

Thank you Keith!

California

[Keith Perkins]

Thank you Keith!

California

No problem. If they're still around this time tomorrow night and you look really close you may see tails whipping around...wrigglers.

[rickztahone]

I think they actually may be viable. Do as Keith suggested and keep us updated.

[HappyFace]

I think they actually may be viable. Do as Keith suggested and keep us updated.

Thank you Ricardo! There are wrigglers tonight. I think mom and dad are eating some of them though.

[rickztahone]

Thank you Keith!

California

Heidi, not sure what part of Cali you are from, but with have a small subforum for fellow SoCal members, drop a line if you get a chance :)
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121675-What-area-of-SoCal-are-you-from

[HappyFace]

Heidi, not sure what part of Cali you are from, but with have a small subforum for fellow SoCal members, drop a line if you get a chance :)
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121675-What-area-of-SoCal-are-you-from

Thank you Ricardo! I will. :)

[Keith Perkins]

Thank you Ricardo! There are wrigglers tonight. I think mom and dad are eating some of them though.

It's possible they are, but then again maybe not. Good pairs often eat unfertilized eggs. Part of this process seems to be to suck an egg off the spawning site and I assume check for movement or something. Watch close and you may see them spitting viable eggs (wrigglers) back onto the spawning site. Some don't get this process exactly right though and do eat some, or all, of the wrigglers. Hopefully yours aren't in this group, or at least not the extreme end of it.

Here's a word of warning if you aren't already aware of it, discus sometimes move their spawns to another site.

[HappyFace]

Thank you Keith.

The bad eggs are still on the rock (white, opaque or moldy). Last night there were around 25 wrigglers spread out all over the sump floor. Last night dad kept blowing water on the wrigglers until they fell off the rock. He would try to put them back and eat one for every 2 he picked up. Some babies ended up stuck in the filth on the floor, several attached to the filter sponge on the pump (at the bottom, not where the suction is), one attached to the thermometer probe and the rest were aimlessly wriggling around the bare floor.

I was tired of seeing dad blow them off the rock and eat some so I turned all the lights off and shut the doors to the sump. This morning everything was the same 25 wrigglers on the floor. Within 15 minutes of turning the lights on Dad ate almost all the babies. About 7 are left. Maybe I should keep them blacked out for a few days.

[Keith Perkins]

Personally, as hard as it is to do, I'd caulk this up to a learning experience for both you and the fish and leave your routine as is for now. Raising discus fry is definitely work and a fairly significant time requirement is involved. The first thing you really need to ask yourself is are you up for it? I can answer most questions on the discus spawning fry raising front, but that question only you can answer.

[HappyFace]

Personally, as hard as it is to do, I'd caulk this up to a learning experience for both you and the fish and leave your routine as is for now. Raising discus fry is definitely work and a fairly significant time requirement is involved. The first thing you really need to ask yourself is are you up for it? I can answer most questions on the discus spawning fry raising front, but that question only you can answer.

It definitely was a learning experience. Thank you Keith.

[DISCUS STU]

Any new pics? By now they've probably been moved from the original substrate and may even be ready to feed from the sides of the parents.

If not, don't worry about it. This is great for a first time and they'll get it right eventually.

[HappyFace]

Any new pics? By now they've probably been moved from the original substrate and may even be ready to feed from the sides of the parents.

If not, don't worry about it. This is great for a first time and they'll get it right eventually.

Thank you for your interest Discus Stu. Dad ate them all when they started wriggling. Maybe next time they will have better success.

[DISCUS STU]

Personally, as hard as it is to do, I'd caulk this up to a learning experience for both you and the fish and leave your routine as is for now. Raising discus fry is definitely work and a fairly significant time requirement is involved. The first thing you really need to ask yourself is are you up for it? I can answer most questions on the discus spawning fry raising front, but that question only you can answer.

It's definitely a group experience. The two Discus parents, the fry, and the Discus keeper!

[Discus3anatic]

I wonder why when i made a post asking this very question about my two mated pair that suddenly spawned like this.. I only got replies.. like well they are going to be ugly, well they wont hatch, if they hatch you should kill them..

Blah blah.. is this because the original poster on this thread is a woman ? Like seriously.. Kinda makes me mad how i get treated differently

[rickztahone]

I wonder why when i made a post asking this very question about my two mated pair that suddenly spawned like this.. I only got replies.. like well they are going to be ugly, well they wont hatch, if they hatch you should kill them..

Blah blah.. is this because the original poster on this thread is a woman ? Like seriously.. Kinda makes me mad how i get treated differently

I assure you, sex has nothing to do with it. What kind of discus were you trying to breed? Were they exactly the same as Heide? For peace of mind, if I remember correctly, Heidi started this thread before she even updated her profile pick, not sure how sex was a factor here.

Please link me to your thread and I can give you my honest opinion on the matter.

[HappyFace]

I wonder why when i made a post asking this very question about my two mated pair that suddenly spawned like this.. I only got replies.. like well they are going to be ugly, well they wont hatch, if they hatch you should kill them..

Blah blah.. is this because the original poster on this thread is a woman ? Like seriously.. Kinda makes me mad how i get treated differently
I think the reason you may have received a different response is because my discus (or atleast my albino) is genetically masking a different color and there is no way know for certain what they are masking until they reproduce. Blue diamonds are recessive so their color gene may not express itself. Also albinos, from what I have recently read, are being bred with many different strains to make interesting new colors whereas it may be that your discus varieties are not recessive and are not masking an unknown color, maybe they have been bred before and produced unattractive offspring. Please link your post I would love to see your unlikely discus pair. Did they ever produce offspring?

When I made this post I did not have my gender revealed and I did not have a profile picture up. My name was up though.

[mollyb]

i think his pair was a red turq (or similar) and a pigeon based golden (looked a bit peppered in the pic). I don't recall if they were revealed as viable fry.

[SNap0283]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122098-My-discus-i-bought-recently-have-paired-off-What-do-i-do&highlight=

An albino with a non albino is not a bad combo, you will get a bunch of interesting fry. Im not a pro on genetics so I wont go any further other than to say it is not looked on as an out and out bad combo.

Your pair is a PB and non-PB which is usually not a good combo. Specifically your pair is a PB and a Turq which is never a good combo and the reason you got the response you did. Nothing personal at all.

[HappyFace]

Well my pair just spawned again on my overflow box this time. I was thinking of begging my husband to allow a 20g tank for breeding purposes but I'm not even sure how to move the eggs. Pictured is the happy couple - Bastian and Blondie - and the "third wheel" Penny the red panda discus. Penny's been trying her best all day to lure Bastian into infidelity. She was following him doing the shakey shake (even upside down and sideways shaking), herding him around the tank cleaning rocks and even tried to pick on Blondie until Bastian had enough and drove her away.

[Discus3anatic]

Ok and her discus one of them is a pigeon blood strain lol so whats the diff

[HappyFace]

Ok and her discus one of them is a pigeon blood strain lol so whats the diff

Maybe this helps to shed light: "A Pure pigeon bred to any other discus will produce all pigeon fry. If the breeding is to a discus with vertical stress bars the fry may be heavily peppered."
link where I got this from: http://www.discusnada.org/discus-classification/
Turks usually have stress bars right?

[nc0gnet0]

I wonder why when i made a post asking this very question about my two mated pair that suddenly spawned like this.. I only got replies.. like well they are going to be ugly, well they wont hatch, if they hatch you should kill them..

Blah blah.. is this because the original poster on this thread is a woman ? Like seriously.. Kinda makes me mad how i get treated differently

Because, your pair was definitely a bad match. Has nothing to do with who you are. At least one of them was of a low quality as well.

[nc0gnet0]

I think the reason you may have received a different response is because my discus (or atleast my albino) is genetically masking a different color and there is no way know for certain what they are masking until they reproduce. Blue diamonds are recessive so their color gene may not express itself. Also albinos, from what I have recently read, are being bred with many different strains to make interesting new colors whereas it may be that your discus varieties are not recessive and are not masking an unknown color, maybe they have been bred before and produced unattractive offspring. Please link your post I would love to see your unlikely discus pair. Did they ever produce offspring?

When I made this post I did not have my gender revealed and I did not have a profile picture up. My name was up though.

Huh? :)

Glad to see someone interested in genetics though.

Hard to say what your pair might produce. A lot going on here genetically, and as you have already mentioned, the Albino could be masking any number of unknown genetic traits, even a pigeon blood gene. Judging by the name "Albino rabbit pink eye" I am guessing this came from an LFS?

If the albino is pigeon blood free, you will get a random assortment of brown based discus with varying degrees of pattern and blue hues.

If it does indeed have pigeon blood genetics, well, the resultant fry could be every bit as ugly as the ones discus3antacic pair would have produced. Depending on as to whether the albino was heterozygous or homozygous for the PB gene, it could be only 50% of the fry being peppered. If your willing to take the offspring to the F2, lots of interesting things could happen however.

At any rate, until you get a breeding tank, none of this will happen. Good luck and enjoy!

-Rick

[HappyFace]

Huh? :)

this came from an LFS?


If it does indeed have pigeon blood genetics, well, the resultant fry could be every bit as ugly

-Rick

Hi Rick.

Thank you.

Mine were purchased from Discusmadness. Right now there are a lot of, what I consider, beautiful breedings going on with albinos -albino white butterfly, albino yellow turquoise, albino yellow snakeskin, albino crystal, albino lemon, albino red cover, albino golden diamond, albino blue diamond, albino rabbit, the list goes on

I looked up albino pidgeon right now. My female is definitely an albino pidgeon. I am happy to learn now before I invest time and money raising peppered babies. Alternately, I have found out that others are breeding pidgeon x blue to eventually make blue pidgeon blood discus but it takes years and line breeding to get there.

[nc0gnet0]

Hi Rick.
Mine were purchased from Discusmadness. Right now there are a lot of, what I consider, beautiful breedings going on with albinos -albino yellow turquoise, albino yellow snakeskin, albino crystal, albino lemon, albino red cover, albino golden diamond, albino blue diamond, albino rabbit, the list goes on
Thank You

Maybe it's the way you worded it that has me confused?

Yes, many new albino strains are being created. But your post led me to believe that you were saying albino strains were being used to create new non-albino strains?

Albino is indeed a recessive gene, so when we breed a an albino (which is homogenous (2) for the albino gene) to a non Albino, we will get Non-albino heterozygous (1) Albino intermediates. To determine what the fry will look like in the F1, we need to take into account the non-albino form of the Albino parent. This can be purely guess work when we can only make a visual assessment of the Albino fish. This becomes even more problematic with certain breeders inventing new names on a whim :) We won't know until after a few successful batches of fry are raised what genetics are involved.


I looked up albino pidgeon right now. My female is definitely an albino pidgeon. I am happy to learn now before I invest time and money raising peppered babies.

Well, I can't be so certain to say with 100% certainty that your Albino Rabbit is a pigeon blood. Could be just an albino turq. There is a fairly good chance it is though(pb), a more common strain name would help us here. Even if it is a pigeon blood, it could be heterozygous, thus resulting in only 50% pigeon blood fry and 50% brown based (wild type) fry. In the later case, the Wild type would be variations of cobalts and turqs.



Alternately, I have found out that others are breeding pidgeon x blue to eventually make blue pidgeon blood discus but it takes years and line breeding to get there.

Dark Angels and Mercury Strains were developed this way.

[HappyFace]

Maybe it's the way you worded it that has me confused?

Yes, many new albino strains are being created. But your post led me to believe that you were saying albino strains were being used to create new non-albino strains?

Albino is indeed a recessive gene, so when we breed a an albino (which is homogenous (2) for the albino gene) to a non Albino, we will get Non-albino heterozygous (1) Albino intermediates. To determine what the fry will look like in the F1, we need to take into account the non-albino form of the Albino parent. This can be purely guess work when we can only make a visual assessment of the Albino fish. This becomes even more problematic with certain breeders inventing new names on a whim :) We won't know until after a few successful batches of fry are raised what genetics are involved.



Well, I can't be so certain to say with 100% certainty that your Albino Rabbit is a pigeon blood. Could be just an albino turq. There is a fairly good chance it is though(pb), a more common strain name would help us here. Even if it is a pigeon blood, it could be heterozygous, thus resulting in only 50% pigeon blood fry and 50% brown based (wild type) fry. In the later case, the Wild type would be variations of cobalts and turqs.




Dark Angels and Mercury Strains were developed this way.

Oops I meant albino strains;) I agree the names are confusing, maybe it is purposeful so they have a secret recipe discus or so people feel they have something special- I have a Super Crowned-King Red Tapestry-faced discus lol.

Good point about not knowing for certain. Interesting how the Dark Angels and Mercury strains were made line breeding. I used to breed showcats, was out to better the breed using cat of the year bloodlines from several sources. It was exciting to finally see several generations of hard work payoff with gorgeous show stopping cats but it was very hard work and takes many years of dedication. I stopped breeding when my son became severely allergic to cats.

[rickztahone]

Oops I meant albino strains;) I agree the names are confusing, maybe it is purposeful so they have a secret recipe discus or so people feel they have something special- I have a Super Crowned-King Red Tapestry-faced discus lol.

Good point about not knowing for certain. Interesting how the Dark Angels and Mercury strains were made line breeding. I used to breed showcats, was out to better the breed using cat of the year bloodlines from several sources. It was exciting to finally see several generations of hard work payoff with gorgeous show stopping cats but it was very hard work and takes many years of dedication. I stopped breeding when my son became severely allergic to cats.

correct. In the end, the naming of discus is just another marketing ploy, however, this shouldn't take away from the efforts a breeder has possibly put in to that specific line to make it stand out from others that are similar but not of the same quality. Breeding programs, I should say true breeding programs have a vision of where they would like to take their lines.

Take Rick for example, obviously he knows his genetics. He is our local mad scientist, but the mixing's he does is not something I would recommend a large majority of people to try, because chances are you would mess it up somehow. However, through innovation (breeding weird crosses) comes progress and these people are the ones that push the envelope to get these new strains out there. It is understandable that they would like to name them something different.

The ones I do not agree with is those that simply import discus that they had nothing to do in breeding and naming them something different just because. That isn't a good practice IMHO

[HappyFace]

correct. In the end, the naming of discus is just another marketing ploy, however, this shouldn't take away from the efforts a breeder has possibly put in to that specific line to make it stand out from others that are similar but not of the same quality. Breeding programs, I should say true breeding programs have a vision of where they would like to take their lines.

Take Rick for example, obviously he knows his genetics. He is our local mad scientist, but the mixing's he does is not something I would recommend a large majority of people to try, because chances are you would mess it up somehow. However, through innovation (breeding weird crosses) comes progress and these people are the ones that push the envelope to get these new strains out there. It is understandable that they would like to name them something different.

The ones I do not agree with is those that simply import discus that they had nothing to do in breeding and naming them something different just because. That isn't a good practice IMHO

I didn't mean to imply that naming is bad or to make light of the work that goes into it. After all, I had invested 10 years into bettering the "exotic shorthair" breed of cat which was a somewhat new cat variety at the time. Half the breedings would come up long-hairs because short hair was a recessive gene. My first outcross would only be carriers of the siamese point gene I was hoping for, half of them long haired and unbreedable. It was no easy task.

I would be the last person to make fun but I do think the name I made up was a bit long-winded and humorous. I would actually love to see a tapestry-faced discus though. I think anyone with a vision and the dedication should most definitely get into breeding new varieties.

[rickztahone]

I didn't mean to imply that naming is bad or to make light of the work that goes into it. After all, I had invested 10 years into bettering the "exotic shorthair" breed of cat which was a somewhat new cat variety at the time. Half the breedings would come up long-hairs because short hair was a recessive gene. My first outcross would only be carriers of the siamese point gene I was hoping for, half of them long haired and unbreedable. It was no easy task.

I would be the last person to make fun but I do think the name I made up was a bit long-winded and humorous. I would actually love to see a tapestry-faced discus though. I think anyone with a vision and the dedication should most definitely get into breeding new varieties.

My apologies, I didn't mean to make it seem like this was directed squarely on you. The subject got brought up and I said my piece on how I feel about the naming. Nothing more. Congrats on your breeding of cats. I see where you get the mind to tackle the discus breeding. In all honesty though, if you do want to breed, I would greatly encourage you to get same strain pairs. It just makes life easier.

[HappyFace]

My apologies, I didn't mean to make it seem like this was directed squarely on you. The subject got brought up and I said my piece on how I feel about the naming. Nothing more. Congrats on your breeding of cats. I see where you get the mind to tackle the discus breeding. In all honesty though, if you do want to breed, I would greatly encourage you to get same strain pairs. It just makes life easier.

No need to apologize. I understand completely. :)

[HappyFace]

correct. In the end, the naming of discus is just another marketing ploy, however, this shouldn't take away from the efforts a breeder has possibly put in to that specific line to make it stand out from others that are similar but not of the same quality. Breeding programs, I should say true breeding programs have a vision of where they would like to take their lines.

Take Rick for example, obviously he knows his genetics. He is our local mad scientist, but the mixing's he does is not something I would recommend a large majority of people to try, because chances are you would mess it up somehow. However, through innovation (breeding weird crosses) comes progress and these people are the ones that push the envelope to get these new strains out there. It is understandable that they would like to name them something different.

The ones I do not agree with is those that simply import discus that they had nothing to do in breeding and naming them something different just because. That isn't a good practice IMHO

Sorry if what I said was at all disrespectful. Naming something you put a lot of work and dedication into is an honor and something to be respected.

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=HappyFace;1194341]Hi Rick.

Thank you.

Mine were purchased from Discusmadness.

FYI, I visited the breeder that sold his Albinos to Discusmadness, at that time he has around 17 pairs of Albinos including what he called Rabbit Eyes Albinos, some of the
other types of Albinos were Red and Yellow.

Cliff

[HappyFace]

[QUOTE=HappyFace;1194341]Hi Rick.

Thank you.

Mine were purchased from Discusmadness.

FYI, I visited the breeder that sold his Albinos to Discusmadness, at that time he has around 17 pairs of Albinos including what he called Rabbit Eyes Albinos, some of the
other types of Albinos were Red and Yellow.

Cliff

Hi Cliff

You may have seen mine then. She is called an albino rabbit eye. :)

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=CliffsDiscus;1194463]

Hi Cliff

You may have seen mine then. She is called an albino rabbit eye. :)

Hi Heidi,
Probably not because this was more then a decade ago, not many Albinos were sent to the U.S. but knowing someone in the wholesale fish business helps. Back around 2005 or 2006
someone name Jimmy on DAAH said that Albinos would not be in the U.S. for another 5 years, but in 2006 I was already breeding here by the thousands. Breeders in Asia has to
protect their interest as the price were high and would not give any release date till the price drops.
Your Albino is related to the Albinos I had as they originally came from a couple of Browns one more yellow. After 5 years breeders would cross this fish with every
living Discus.

Cliff

[HappyFace]

[QUOTE=HappyFace;1194480]

Hi Heidi,
Probably not because this was more then a decade ago, not many Albinos were sent to the U.S. but knowing someone in the wholesale fish business helps. Back around 2005 or 2006
someone name Jimmy on DAAH said that Albinos would not be in the U.S. for another 5 years, but in 2006 I was already breeding here by the thousands. Breeders in Asia has to
protect their interest as the price were high and would not give any release date till the price drops.
Your Albino is related to the Albinos I had as they originally came from a couple of Browns one more yellow. After 5 years breeders would cross this fish with every
living Discus.

Cliff

Thank you so much for sharing this amazing history Cliff!

[Ryan]

"Rabbit Eye" as far as I know was just an early name for albino discus because they shared red eyes that are common in albino forms of rabbits. It doesn't really give you any indication of the color strain of the fish.

The fine patterning on your fish around the gills and the spots lead me to believe it's got snakeskin genes in it somewhere, and maybe LSS (leopard snakeskin). I recently sold a batch of 3.5" albino leopard snakes that looked very much like this. They start out mostly pale white/yellow with some white striation and the red spotting comes in with age. Of course, they could also have any number of other genes, depending on the parents used (as Rick mentioned).

One thing is for sure -- unless that blue diamond carries a recessive albino gene, none of the first generation of fry will be albino. They will be albino intermediates -- normally pigmented discus carrying a recessive albino gene. Breeding those fry together, or breeding them back to the albino parent or to another albino fish, will result in a percentage of albino fish.

Blue Diamonds crossed with snakeskins often produce some really interesting results. I don't think it would be a bad cross, but the variety of color types you get could be all over the place. Sometimes they throw you a really unique surprise. ;)

[Keith Perkins]

...Blue Diamonds crossed with snakeskins often produce some really interesting results. I don't think it would be a bad cross, but the variety of color types you get could be all over the place. Sometimes they throw you a really unique surprise. ;)

From a selling of the offspring perspective having a variety of color types IME is a nice benefit. Most buyers like variety and a choice so if you have one pair and they are producing multiple types it give your buyers instant options with the least amount of work for you. A good way to start out, assuming the variety types turn out to be pepper free.

[HappyFace]

"Rabbit Eye" as far as I know was just an early name for albino discus because they shared red eyes that are common in albino forms of rabbits. It doesn't really give you any indication of the color strain of the fish.

The fine patterning on your fish around the gills and the spots lead me to believe it's got snakeskin genes in it somewhere, and maybe LSS (leopard snakeskin). I recently sold a batch of 3.5" albino leopard snakes that looked very much like this. They start out mostly pale white/yellow with some white striation and the red spotting comes in with age. Of course, they could also have any number of other genes, depending on the parents used (as Rick mentioned).

One thing is for sure -- unless that blue diamond carries a recessive albino gene, none of the first generation of fry will be albino. They will be albino intermediates -- normally pigmented discus carrying a recessive albino gene. Breeding those fry together, or breeding them back to the albino parent or to another albino fish, will result in a percentage of albino fish.

Blue Diamonds crossed with snakeskins often produce some really interesting results. I don't think it would be a bad cross, but the variety of color types you get could be all over the place. Sometimes they throw you a really unique surprise. ;)

Oh wow leopard snakeskin. I am very interested to see what they would produce now.

[HappyFace]

From a selling of the offspring perspective having a variety of color types IME is a nice benefit. Most buyers like variety and a choice so if you have one pair and they are producing multiple types it give your buyers instant options with the least amount of work for you. A good way to start out, assuming the variety types turn out to be pepper free.

It would be fun to watch them take on their colors too. I do fear peppering with dad being blue though.

I've decided to hand raise one of their spawnings in a net inside the 200g tank or sump. I just ordered a 1.5g fry net, magnetic clips to ensure it stays put, plankton, brine and hikari fry feed. I was thinking of getting one of my son's old drip IV/gtube bags and have the plankton setup to slowly drip into the net for the first 2 weeks. Wouldn't that better replicate being with their parents, being able to feed all day and night?

[nc0gnet0]

It would be fun to watch them take on their colors too. I do fear peppering with dad being blue though.

I've decided to hand raise one of their spawnings in a net inside the 200g tank or sump. I just ordered a 1.5g fry net, magnetic clips to ensure it stays put, plankton, brine and hikari fry feed. I was thinking of getting one of my son's old drip IV/gtube bags and have the plankton setup to slowly drip into the net for the first 2 weeks. Wouldn't that better replicate being with their parents, being able to feed all day and night?

I seriously doubt that will work.

[HappyFace]

Mud, you doubt what will work....hard rearing, a fry net, the food I want to use, the drip system? Please explain why.

[HappyFace]

I seriously doubt that will work.

Is a 1.5 gallon net too small? If so, maybe I can make a 5gal net.

I plan to do 100% w/c daily and place the net closer to a higher flow area in my tank so there is better circulation. I could feed plankton mix every 2 hours but mom and dad usually feed them slime coat all day right? Once they transition to brine I will need to feed by hand. I just thought a drip system would replicate nature more.

[CliffsDiscus]

Is a 1.5 gallon net too small? If so, maybe I can make a 5gal net.

I plan to do 100% w/c daily and place the net closer to a higher flow area in my tank so there is better circulation. I could feed plankton mix every 2 hours but mom and dad usually feed them slime coat all day right? Once they transition to brine I will need to feed by hand. I just thought a drip system would replicate nature more.

Is the net green color and has 4 corners being held up by plastic posts? If so I used this before and had problems with fry stuck or hiding behind the corners
of the plastic post, some dead spots, so watch for this.

By the way what part of Cali are you living?

Cliff

[nc0gnet0]

If your really serious about breeding, get yourself a 29/30 gallon breeding tank. BBS is what you want to feed.

[Keith Perkins]

If your really serious about breeding, get yourself a 29/30 gallon breeding tank. BBS is what you want to feed.

That being live hatched BBS of course. Brine Shrimp Direct is generally the vendor of choice around here for good quality eggs. And I definitely agree, doing it naturally is the way to go if you can.

[nc0gnet0]

If space for another tank is the issue, remember, even if your breeding net was successful, in no time you would need another tank for the young juvies anyways.

[HappyFace]

Thank you Keith and Mud. You both have very good points and advise.

[rickztahone]

I thought I saw on another thread that you removed the white rock?

[HappyFace]

I thought I saw on another thread that you removed the white rock?

I remove the rock every week to soak it in bleach for 24-48 hours. I ordered additional holey rock last week so I can swap them out and never have a bare tank again.

Hopefully I will finish scaping my tank this week. I've been waiting for over 2 weeks for my custom tile to arrive. It looks like a sandy beach, picture attached. I tried white tile and I didn't like it. I was vacuuming 4 times a day but there was always some tiny sand-colored debris on the ground and it looked really bad on the white tile. My hope is to vacuum 2xs a day and for it to always look good.

I also ordered some white plastic branches and a few fake plants. I'm not sure if I will use them. I want the tank to look clean and simple. I may design 2 or 3 different scapes and switch them out every week when I soak the rocks.

[rickztahone]

Cool looking tile. This is for the bottom I am assuming?

[HappyFace]

Thank you Ricardo. Yes, it will go on the bottom.

I have a slate bottom in my other tank and I love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQ4QAkAUhE

[rickztahone]

Thank you Ricardo. Yes, it will go on the bottom.

I have a slate bottom in my other tank and I love it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQ4QAkAUhE

Your Koi collection is amazing. TFS

[HappyFace]

Your Koi collection is amazing. TFS

Thank you Ricardo:)

[nc0gnet0]

Nice Koi, do they go outside in the summer? Several years ago I did the slate tile thing. Can I ask How you seal it? Silicone won't work all that well and gunk always gets underneath.

[HappyFace]

Thank you. They are aquarium fish all year. They are my son's fish and very therapeutic for him. I believe they are very healthy and happy. They show it by their hungry, active, friendly behavior, lack of illness and they want to spawn a lot. When they show spawning behavior (girls get fat and the white male rushes them) I cut their feedings in half and lower the temp 5 degrees for a few days then they reabsorb the eggs.

The slate is removable, no silicone. It's cut smaller than the inner width of the tank so it lays flat on the bottom of the tank, no space is underneath. If it were cut the exact inner dimensions of the tank then it would not lay flat because the silicone border around the base of the tank would bump it up higher. I have a powerhead jet aimed straight across the bottom of the tank that pushes all the filth away from the edges and cracks so nothing settles on the floor.

[HappyFace]

Here are a couple of pics to give a general idea of how much space is around the slate.

[nc0gnet0]

I would be inclined to pour in some two part acrylic epoxy to seal it all in. Trust me, stuff will get under there.......

[HappyFace]

I couldn't epoxy it in place. I wouldn't want it to be permanent and I know I would damage the tank or the sealant if I tried to remove it.

I have a lot of neoprene rubber I was going to use as sound dampening and never did. I'm going to cut it to the same size as my tile and silicone it to the bottom of each tile before I put them in. http://www.allstategasket.com/info-gasket-material-fda.asp

[nc0gnet0]

Yes it would be permanent, I m not talking about dabbing some epoxy glue here and there, rather pouring in the two part liquid epoxy (up to a gallon) enough to fill all the cracks and crevices and cover the tile.

People use it to create fake sand beds in reef tanks all the time:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392144&pp=25

I have used it and it works great and is completely fish safe.

[HappyFace]

Yes it would be permanent, I m not talking about dabbing some epoxy glue here and there, rather pouring in the two part liquid epoxy (up to a gallon) enough to fill all the cracks and crevices and cover the tile.

People use it to create fake sand beds in reef tanks all the time:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392144&pp=25

I have used it and it works great and is completely fish safe.

Wow that's gorgeous but if you read page 9, comment 215 a guy tried it and his whole tank bottom cracked. He even included pictures on page 11.

[nc0gnet0]

Wow that's gorgeous but if you read page 9, comment 215 a guy tried it and his whole tank bottom cracked. He even included pictures on page 11.

One incidence our of many, hard to say what went wrong there.

[HappyFace]

One incidence our of many, hard to say what went wrong there.

True but it's a risk I can't take. I would need 100% support of my hubby and he would never give that so we will stick with rubber backed tile. It does look beautiful though. TFS