New Discus Bullied

[Mudmarlin]

This is my first experience with discus. I have had saltwater fish for the last 15 years. I started a 40 gallon freshwater tank in August and got my first discus in September. I added another discus about a month later. Both fish are doing very well. The original discus nips at the second one from time to time, but that is expected since he's a bit bigger. I just added a new discus last week and this one is getting seriously picked on by both of the older discus. They are all pretty much the same size around 3-4 inches with the original being the biggest. During feeding time the new will come right out and get food but gets chased back to the corner as soon as the food is gone. Pretty much if the new one leaves the corner both fish start chasing him. I do expect a bit of a pecking order but I have read how discus do well with each other, and this seems to be very far from that. The only fish in the tank are the three discus and two giant danios which are not giant fish. Is this normal when new discus are introduced or do I just have nasty fish? Perhaps another new discus to side with the new one would help? I really didn't want more than the fish I have in there now.

[warblad79]

One way to balance the aggression is to add more Discus but since you don't want to add more I can't really help you. That's why it's recommended to get between 6-8 Discus.

[Mudmarlin]

Thanks. Adding more wouldn't be first choice mainly because I was concerned about room in the tank. I wouldn't want them fighting over territory either. How many discus would be too many for a 40 gallon tank? I have read anywhere from one discus for every 5-10 gallons of tank.

[Las Vegas]

Well you can add more Discus. But it means that the bullies will have more discus to pick on. Which means less time picked on the rest. Only until one tires and dies. And it will. Then the bully picks on the next one. That's one of the reasons why larger tanks work better. In my experience long tanks work best. But Ive always believed if your water is changed enough times you'll see the pecking slow down. Sort of like us complaining to our roommates to stop farting in the livingroom. HA! You could also try removing the bully for awhile, like a month, away from view of the fish. Change the inside of the tank. Add a new driftwood and flat rock so any fish can hide. Then, when you introduce the bully back into the tank watch from a distance and see if the pecking order has changed. If it hasn't at least there will be a hiding place for the little one to give him a chance to live. The water changes will keep the fish chemical from dominating the tank and allow the other fish to grow. That's one reason why some fish outgrow other fish so quickly when they are young. Goodluck. This scenario will be tough to resolve in a small tank.

[Akili]

Thanks. Adding more wouldn't be first choice mainly because I was concerned about room in the tank. I wouldn't want them fighting over territory either. How many discus would be too many for a 40 gallon tank? I have read anywhere from one discus for every 5-10 gallons of tank.General rule is minimum10 gals per Discus.

[Mudmarlin]

It is a long tank. I do a partial water change once a week so I'll go with that idea. I didn't change it last week because I go the new fish. I'll give it some time and see what happens. What size tank would you recommend? I'm afraid if I come home with a bigger tank my wife will demand saltwater again. I really don't miss mixing salt water. But I could always get it when she's not home.

[Las Vegas]

HA! Never go against the wife! A happy wife is a happy life. I learned that 25 years ago. Yea after the big D. But please up your water changes to AT LEAST 50% every 2nd or 3rd day. Once a week will not work.

[Phillydubs]

Your tank set up, husbandry and approach are all wrong for discus... You should really go and read the stickies and watch Als video...

Adding another discus or 5 is still wrong because you will not be QTing them which is evident and you risk wiping the entire tank anyway...

You might be best suited giving these three away or selling them and getting at least a 55 and starting fresh... Even with that approach one water change a week and skipping changes is going to spell disaster...

Sorry to be blunt but it's true!! Read read read and ask ask ask and just when you think you got it. Read and ask some more!!!!

[Las Vegas]

Yep, what phillydub said. Just try this, Use your 40gal tank. Keep it bare bottom. No plants. Just use driftwood and something to provide a hiding place for the picked on discus. YOU MUST DO 50% CLEAN WATER CHANGES EVERY 2ND DAY. Keep ph level at 6.5 to 7.0. If you can care for these discus and make them thrive into adults. Then you might be ready to be a Discus keeper. If you can't even make those water changes you won't be able to care for these type of fish.

[Mudmarlin]

I'm not quite sure what you're being blunt about. Other than tank size you have no info about my tank setup. And other than how frequent my water changes are you know nothing else. Are you saying my tank is too small? And I'm guessing "husbandry" is some kind of joke. You're not going to offend me I came here for information. I've read lots and read about many approaches. I value any opinion. These fish are doing well other than picking on my new one.

[Phillydubs]

Husbandry is no joke at all... Google away... I wouldn't reply to you to make a joke of you or your set up. You came for advice and that is what I gave and am giving... You might not think you gave much if any info but in all actuality you gave a ton of info and with it a ton of red flags... You are new to the Board and came here with questions and I basically told you to stop and get rid of it all so to me that sounded blunt and I didn't want to scare you off or think that I wasn't doing it with the best intentions.

Let's go back to the beginning... Tank size alone is a very important factor and this is coming from someone who has a small tank that is overstocked at that so don't think I am some guy with a 300 gallon tank mocking you because that I am not for sure. I tried 5 discus years back in a 47 tall cube with bad results. Took me about 2 weeks to realize I better grab a 55 or they were goners... So a 40 long as it sounds like you may have might be a fine start to raise a small group of juvies that is no permanent home unless you want a proven pair of discus ...

Second you purchased one discus, then added another then added a third... This is all wrong and again a learning curve and something you will come to understand while you may feel this was the best way to go... Not knowing it's all wrong. For starters, discus like to be in groups and most people here will tell you 5-6 minimum. Second, many of not all experienced people will tell you to get from one source and all at once. If not you have to quarantine the new fish to make sure they aren't diseased and going to kill of or harm the other inhabitants. Any time you add one fish at a time with most species especially cichlids. They are going to relentlessly go after the new lone inhabitant in most cases. You also stated that you do a partial water chanhe once a week. In a 40 gallon tank a partial change to me sounds like at best 20 gallons and maybe less. A 50% water change weekly isn't going to cut it what so ever...you also said you skipped new water for a week because you got new fish wich is the opposite approach to take of anything you need to change more water at that time.

So as you can see, while it may not come off that you revealed much, you really said it all. The way you got the fish, introduced them, tank size and water change schedule are all far far from ideal.

[John_Nicholson]

What they are trying to say is the following......Discus are cichlids, cichlids will fight, that is 100% natural. The way to deal with it is too have at least 6 discus. This allows for the fighting to be spread through the group so the discus on the low end of the totem pole can deal with it. With younger discus most people change roughly 50% of the water a day. For discus to reach their potential they need lots of high protein food, these leads to lots of waste, which in term means that you have to change lots of water. When they become adults that changes some but most do at least one large weekly water change. Most do at least two.

-john

[SlimmSnake]

Yes, it's best to get a group of 6 or more, all at the same time. The discus in the group won't necessarily stake out individual "territories" within the tank, but the group as a whole will learn to see all of the tank as their (group) territory. So then when you try to introduce any more discus at a later time, (whether it's one or several), the new ones will be chased and harassed mercilessly by the existing ones, as they are "invaders" into the established group's home.

Also, whenever there is one single discus getting especially harassed by the others, my experience has been that the picked-on one will eventually wither and die. That's why getting a group of 6 is better than getting a group of 5... 5 is the absolute minimum group size that might establish into a stable, relatively peaceful group. Even when you buy a group all at the same time, there's a chance that one (or more) of them will become the low-man on the totem pole and be harassed to death. The fish have individual personalities, and you can't really "see" any differences before you buy them and take them home and put them in YOUR particular setup. But any that are weaker or more timid run the risk of being picked-on and persecuted by the others. When I first started, I got a couple of different groups of discus from different sources at different times, not understanding any of the above information either. Over time, of the 12 discus I purchased, several died from stress or illness or being picked on to death, down to my current stable group of 5. The 5 of mine that survived did so because they got along with each other (none is currently overly aggressive or overly timid) and they're all more mature now (at least 7 months old or older). I really feel like there is some luck involved in establishing a stable discus group, especially if you don't buy full-grown adults.

And yes, it's amazing how clean water helps their personalities. Also when I first started I wasn't doing enough water changes either, and I would notice the fish getting depressed and grouchy (seriously). I would measure the tank, and the nitrates would only be like 8 or 10 or something seemingly low, and I thought surely my water is fine, it can't be that. But lo and behold, I up the water changes, and everybody gets happier and they get along better.

[Mudmarlin]

Thanks. At this point adding more fish doesn't seem to be the answer. So I'm going to ride this one out. I will definitely up the water changes and move the plants and wood in the tank around. Two of the discus get along and did before the third was introduced so hopefully the new one will toughen up. If not I may add a different species and have a community tank. Moving forward into the future when I get a bigger tank and I add discus in large groups like 6 at a time, isn't there a large spike in ammonia and how do the fish handle it?

[SlimmSnake]

If your bacteria can't keep up with the increased bioload at first, do daily large water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite concentrations low until the bacteria multiply enough to handle it.

[Las Vegas]

Sorry Mudmarlin if I also upset you. I was just trying to be friendly and helpful. Good luck with your discus.

[Mudmarlin]

No not all. Thanks for the advice as well. I knew this tank was on the smaller side but giving up the fish that were doing well was not a viable option. It may not be the ideal setup but with more water changes I think at least two of the three will do well. In the future I may do a large discus only tank. But like I said my wife likes the saltwater fish better and like you said a happy wife is a happy life. I like the saltwater better too just not the mixing saltwater.

[Surfnturf]

I have had two that fought at feeding time and lived. I've had five that didn't get along and the weak ones wasted away. I currently have five that do work. The aggression will lessen after a week or two but never go away. You can try separating them with some mesh until the new one gets more acclimated to the tank and gets his strength up.