Never do another water change

[HappyFace]

I recommend this for people who have sumps. It's called a drip/drain system or continuous water exchange.

How it works- There is a regular garden faucet outside that I attached a regulator to. I have it set to 20psi. To this I added attachments for 1/4" quick connect hose that lead to a removable quick connect (ice maker) carbon filter. I change this filter out once a week. The 1/4" line then goes into the house. We drilled a hole in our bedroom wall for the incoming water line and another hole for the drain line. The incoming water line goes first to a KSI meter that allows me to set how many gallons per hour I want coming into the tank- anywhere from 1 to 10 gph. I currently have it set to deliver 5gph fresh water into my sump. There are 3 heaters in my sump that ensure the water always stays the exact same temperature 87/88 degrees before it goes up to the main tank where the fish are. There is a drain line in the side of my sump which leads outside and drains out into our garden.

A few things I learned along the way:

-It's important that the drain line is drilled at the water line above your pump so your sump never goes dry and this also means you will never have to top off water.

-if your drain line is only 1/4" you may have problems draining properly. Air bubbles in a small line can stop it from draining and cause a flood especially if you don't have a good downward slope to your drain line or some small thing clogs it up. 1/2"-3/4" drain line with a breather prevents this from happening.

-put the drain line after the water is filtered so the drain line doesn't clog up

-to get an accurate measurement of fresh water exchange you need to cut all measurements of inflow in half - anotherwords, if you have 5gph coming into your sump every hour, a total of 120 gallons per day you actually only have 60 gallons per day coming in because half of this water will be draining out through the drain. I know this because I salted my tank, set my drip drain to do 100% water change in 24 hours and measured the salt after 24 hours. The salt content was half which means even though I had technically added enough water to the system that it should have been 100% water exchange, 50% of the water exiting the drain line was the fresh water and 50% was the old tank water.

[afriend]

I recommend this for people who have sumps. It's called a drip/drain system or continuous water exchange.

How it works- There is a regular garden faucet outside that I attached a regulator to. I have it set to 20psi. To this I added attachments for 1/4" quick connect hose that lead to a removable quick connect (ice maker) carbon filter. I change this filter out once a week. The 1/4" line then goes into the house. We drilled a hole in our bedroom wall for the incoming water line and another hole for the drain line. The incoming water line goes first to a KSI meter that allows me to set how many gallons per hour I want coming into the tank- anywhere from 1 to 10 gph. I currently have it set to deliver 5gph fresh water into my sump. There are 3 heaters in my sump that ensure the water always stays the exact same temperature 87/88 degrees before it goes up to the main tank where the fish are. There is a drain line in the side of my sump which leads outside and drains out into our garden.

A few things I learned along the way:

-It's important that the drain line is drilled at the water line above your pump so your sump never goes dry and this also means you will never have to top off water.

-if your drain line is only 1/4" you may have problems draining properly. Air bubbles in a small line can stop it from draining and cause a flood especially if you don't have a good downward slope to your drain line or some small thing clogs it up. 1/2"-3/4" drain line with a breather prevents this from happening.

-put the drain line after the water is filtered so the drain line doesn't clog up

-to get an accurate measurement of fresh water exchange you need to cut all measurements of inflow in half - anotherwords, if you have 5gph coming into your sump every hour, a total of 120 gallons per day you actually only have 60 gallons per day coming in because half of this water will be draining out through the drain. I know this because I salted my tank, set my drip drain to do 100% water change in 24 hours and measured the salt after 24 hours. The salt content was half which means even though I had technically added enough water to the system that it should have been 100% water exchange, 50% of the water exiting the drain line was the fresh water and 50% was the old tank water.

Happy Face,

I studied your pictures and don't completely understand where the fresh water enters the sump and where the old water exits. What I do understand is the fact that you are adding new water to your sump, mixing it up with existing water in the sump, and draining the mixture at the same rate that you are adding it. At the same time you are continuously mixing the sump water with the tank water.

Here's a good link where you can find out how efficient your system is working:

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

The above calculator is based on the assumption that the water leaving has been fully mixed with new and existing water before it exits. For example, assume that the volume of water in the tank and the sump together is 120 g, and that 120 g of new water is added daily. Plug these into the calculator and the result will be "The drip system will change 63 % of the tank water in one day." This amounts to 76 g (120 x 0.63 = 76 ) of fresh water and 44 g (120 x (1 - .63) = 44) of old water.

The test you made with the salt is very good way to determine how much water has actually been exchanged. Under these conditions, if the salt is less than 63 % removed then the system could be made more efficient by getting it to mix better.

Better mixing can possibility be achieved if new water is added on the output side of the sump and old water is removed at the input side of the sump. However in your application, it may be beneficial to "-put the drain line after the water is filtered so the drain line doesn't clog up"

I use a drip system myself and I'm very pleased with the results. A number of members here at SD don't like drip systems because the efficiency is reduced. In my case I'm more than willing to accept the reduced efficiency in order to obtain the benefit of an automated exchange. In my case for example, I put in 35 gpd into a 100 g tank and the yield is 30 gpd. Thus I am willing to waste 5 gpd in order to automate the system.

Hope I have added something here that may be of benefit to you. I really like your tank and fish. It looks so nice and clean and the fish have good color and look healthy.

Paul

[HappyFace]

Happy Face,

I studied your pictures and don't completely understand where the fresh water enters the sump and where the old water exits. What I do understand is the fact that you are adding new water to your sump, mixing it up with existing water in the sump, and draining the mixture at the same rate that you are adding it. At the same time you are continuously mixing the sump water with the tank water.

Here's a good link where you can find out how efficient your system is working:

http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php

The above calculator is based on the assumption that the water leaving has been fully mixed with new and existing water before it exits. For example, assume that the volume of water in the tank and the sump together is 120 g, and that 120 g of new water is added daily. Plug these into the calculator and the result will be "The drip system will change 63 % of the tank water in one day." This amounts to 76 g (120 x 0.63 = 76 ) of fresh water and 44 g (120 x (1 - .63) = 44) of old water.

The test you made with the salt is very good way to determine how much water has actually been exchanged. Under these conditions, if the salt is less than 63 % removed then the system could be made more efficient by getting it to mix better.

Better mixing can possibility be achieved if new water is added on the output side of the sump and old water is removed at the input side of the sump. However in your application, it may be beneficial to "-put the drain line after the water is filtered so the drain line doesn't clog up"

I use a drip system myself and I'm very pleased with the results. A number of members here at SD don't like drip systems because the efficiency is reduced. In my case I'm more than willing to accept the reduced efficiency in order to obtain the benefit of an automated exchange. In my case for example, I put in 35 gpd into a 100 g tank and the yield is 30 gpd. Thus I am willing to waste 5 gpd in order to automate the system.

Hope I have added something here that may be of benefit to you. I really like your tank and fish. It looks so nice and clean and the fish have good color and look healthy.

Paul

Thank you Paul for sharing this!

I also don't mind the lack of efficiency because the waste water is watering and fertilizing my lawn.

For people who are concerned about water waste I did a few comparisons and found that I had equal or more water waste doing daily water changes using a python - 120 gph when connected to my kitchen faucet (no lawn watering there) or 288 gph water waste using my 50 foot garden hose.

Another fact that I thought was interesting (because my husband was concerned that we are wasting too much water and might end up with higher water bills once we are put on a meter) one garden hose sprinkler expells 12 gallons per minute of water. My 200 gallon aquarium setup is only expelling 125 gallons per day and my 480 is expelling 240 gallons per day. So, if we have 25 sprinklers in our yard we would just need to run them approx 1 minute less each day to compensate for the fish water waste.

Sorry for not including a picture of the fresh water line coming in and my lack of labels. The freshwater line coming in is connected to a toilet float. The toilet float failed within 1 month and caused our sump to flood when it got stuck in the down position then alternately it's failure caused our sump to go dry when it got stuck in the up position.

I had originally placed the drain line at the far right, near the bottom of my sump but it would get clogged up and it was below the pump water line which resulted in a dry or a flooded sump due to drainage flow variations and toilet float failure. At the time I was pioneering what I thought was a new idea and making many mistakes. Now the drain line is close to the pump so the water is not mixing as effectively and more fresh water is being drained out as you pointed out.

Our 480g aquarium sump has a 1/2" drain line and vent so the drainage flow is much better and the freshwater line coming in is actually pushed into a pipe that leads to the return pump so there is much less waste but it is not heated properly before entering the tank. The 480g tank doesn't contain tropical fish though so I don't worry about the water being perfectly heated.

[rickztahone]

Is this tap water coming in? If so, how is it conditioned?

[HappyFace]

Is this tap water coming in? If so, how is it conditioned?

Yes it's tap water. I have a $5.00 carbon filter attached near the garden spigot. I change the filter out every week.

[rickztahone]

Yes it's tap water. I have a $5.00 carbon filter attached near the garden spigot. I change the filter out every week.

Ah yes, I do remember you mentioning that in the beginning now that I think about it. Good job. Many, including myself will say to avoid these type of water changes, but if it works for you, why fix it? You have a lovely tank as I have mentioned in the past and your discus look very nice. Keep it up.

[The Irons]

What happens if there is a power outage?
I'm guessing like any drilled tank, water will drain from the tank & into the sump, until the tank water level drops below the overflow weir. Won't this excess water then be drained out the sump via the drain line? When the power comes back on, your system is temporarily low on water until the drip system catches up, does this cause the pump to run dry at any time, or do you have enough water volume that the pump won't run dry? In the picture 2nd from bottom, it looks like the water level is high in the sump, so maybe that gives enough volume to protect the pump? Does that also mean you're no longer using the filter as a wet/dry, but more as a standard submerged filter? You have really put some thought into this system.

[HappyFace]

Ah yes, I do remember you mentioning that in the beginning now that I think about it. Good job. Many, including myself will say to avoid these type of water changes, but if it works for you, why fix it? You have a lovely tank as I have mentioned in the past and your discus look very nice. Keep it up.

Thank you. When we first built the tank I did not use carbon. I had a dosing pump deliver 4ml/hr. stress coat to the sump near the return pump but I stopped doing this and went with the carbon filter. I did research and I felt that filtering out some of the chemicals and pesticides known to be present in our city well water was more important and the stress coat was no longer necessary. So far it is working great. I was actually very suprised that my discus pair successfully spawned wigglers.

[afriend]

Ah yes, I do remember you mentioning that in the beginning now that I think about it. Good job. Many, including myself will say to avoid these type of water changes, but if it works for you, why fix it? You have a lovely tank as I have mentioned in the past and your discus look very nice. Keep it up.

Ricardo,

What is it that should be avoided about this type of water change? My filters have always been in canisters. Never owned a sump.

Paul

[rickztahone]

Thank you. When we first built the tank I did not use carbon. I had a dosing pump deliver 4ml/hr. stress coat to the sump near the return pump but I stopped doing this and went with the carbon filter. I did research and I felt that filtering out some of the chemicals and pesticides known to be present in our city well water was more important and the stress coat was no longer necessary. So far it is working great. I was actually very suprised that my discus pair successfully spawned wigglers.

yeah, no kidding. In fact, I meant to reply to that thread and I was going to tell you to stop placing that filter floss like material on the sump filter. You can really damage that thing and really reduce the efficiency of it if it starts getting blocked. It can overheat a lot faster and pretty much take a dive.

[rickztahone]

Ricardo,

What is it that should be avoided about this type of water change?

Paul

With the exception of you and possibly OP, most people when they approach these type of systems only try to implement them to be lazy and not have to do any work with their fish tank. I know your setup and know that is far from the truth, and you have a very good understanding of mechanics and what goes on in your tank. Personally, I find manul WC's to be therapeutic and don't find a need for an automated drip system. I'm all for making WC's more efficient, but not automated. Different strokes goes the saying.

[HappyFace]

What happens if there is a power outage?
I'm guessing like any drilled tank, water will drain from the tank & into the sump, until the tank water level drops below the overflow weir. Won't this excess water then be drained out the sump via the drain line? When the power comes back on, your system is temporarily low on water until the drip system catches up, does this cause the pump to run dry at any time, or do you have enough water volume that the pump won't run dry? In the picture 2nd from bottom, it looks like the water level is high in the sump, so maybe that gives enough volume to protect the pump? Does that also mean you're no longer using the filter as a wet/dry, but more as a standard submerged filter? You have really put some thought into this system.

Thank you.

Yes, you are correct, the sump would never go dry or flood because the drain line is above the level of the pump. In a long power outage the drip/drain system would continue to work and the water level would always remain the same. The heated water would exit and colder water would enter the sump so once the power goes back on the approx 25 gallons of colder sump water would lower the temperature of the 200 gallon main tank when it mixes but hopefully not dangerously so since my temp is set to 88 degrees.

My filtration is more submerged than most peoples but it works excellent. I had 4 koi over 20 inches in the white tank before moving them to a larger tank and the water parameters were always perfect even though I had the meter set so only 3gph was being exchanged. Alternately, when I moved the koi to their new 480g tank I had 12gph being exchanged and the ammonia was .25ppm in less than 24 hours, .5 in 48 hours and over 1ppm in 72 hours due to the tank not being cycled yet. I bioseeded the tank with some of the completely submerged filtration from the white tank and the ammonia went to zero in less than 2 days.

[rickztahone]

Thank you.

Yes, you are correct, the sump would never go dry or flood because the drain line is above the level of the pump. In a long power outage the drip/drain system would continue to work and the water level would always remain the same. The heated water would exit and colder water would enter the sump so once the power goes back on the approx 25 gallons of colder sump water would lower the temperature of the 200 gallon main tank when it mixes but hopefully not dangerously so since my temp is set to 88 degrees.

My filtration is more submerged than most peoples but it works excellent. I had 4 koi over 20 inches in the white tank before moving them to a larger tank and the water parameters were always perfect even though I had the meter set so only 3gph was being exchanged. Alternately, when I moved the koi to their new 480g tank I had 12gph being exchanged and the ammonia was .25ppm in less than 24 hours, .5 in 48 hours and over 1ppm in 72 hours due to the tank not being cycled yet. I bioseeded the tank with some of the completely submerged filtration from the white tank and the ammonia went to zero in less than 2 days.

Why are you at 88F? That is too hot.

[afriend]

With the exception of you and possibly OP, most people when they approach these type of systems only try to implement them to be lazy and not have to do any work with their fish tank. I know your setup and know that is far from the truth, and you have a very good understanding of mechanics and what goes on in your tank. Personally, I find manul WC's to be therapeutic and don't find a need for an automated drip system. I'm all for making WC's more efficient, but not automated. Different strokes goes the saying.

Ricardo,

So that's what you mean by that kind of system. Thought you were talking about flooding or something like that.

Well, actually I am kind of lazy. At my age (76) I don't have as much energy as before, and I would rather save what energy I have for other things. Call it "The conservation of energy" principle. :p

I do admire and respect those who have the discipline and are willing to commit to do daily water change. Thanks for your reply.

Paul

[HappyFace]

With the exception of you and possibly OP, most people when they approach these type of systems only try to implement them to be lazy and not have to do any work with their fish tank. I know your setup and know that is far from the truth, and you have a very good understanding of mechanics and what goes on in your tank. Personally, I find manul WC's to be therapeutic and don't find a need for an automated drip system. I'm all for making WC's more efficient, but not automated. Different strokes goes the saying.

What initially motivated me to make this system is that I kept flooding the house. No matter how hard I tried to stay near the fish during water changes I just couldn't do it without flooding the house atleast once a month. I work from home, have a disabled son and a husband who loves undevided attention and dinner immediately when he gets home. I am constantly facing distractions. The second reason was my husband hated the huge 150g storage tanks in each room conditioning water, they were also unsafe for my disabled son who might fall in (I had to lock the doors to our bathroom and family room) and the storage tanks were not stabilized with jacks underneath like our fish tanks so there was a risk of them eventually damaging our floor.

I ended up writing a list of reasons why a person would want a sump with continuous water exchange.
- it is less stressful for the fish to not having up and down water levels in the tank/rapidly changing ph etc.
-no more garden hoses and pythons as permanent fixtures running down my hallway and hanging out my bathroom windows. Having these windows open hours a day was also wasting energy letting the cool air out in the summer and warm air in the winter.
-The cost of purchasing inline bulk carbon filters is much cheaper than water conditioner.
-There is no way I can do water changes when I am 80 and I would be sad to see our fish go just because I can't do water changes as I get older.
-no more flooding house
-I didn't have to purchase extra heaters to heat the storage tanks (at the time we were considering getting into tropical fish and had not yet invested in heaters).
-I would no longer have huge tanks of sitting water in my house, risking the safety of our child.

I am still constantly working with my fish infact I think I have become part fish lol. Last week I actually submerged my head in the tank trying to remove silicone. I feed 5 times each day (hand feeding 3 of these times), change out filtration once a day, blow down the entire tank atleast once a day (under rocks, etc). I soak the plastic rocks 1-2 times each week.

[Fishquake]

Nice system HappyFace!
I've built a drip system as well for my fry tanks so that I can change water continuously 24/7. Any changes in temperature or pH occur gradually over a period of time so as to reduce stress. I use 10GPH pressure compensating drip emitters to exit water out of the tanks into a reservoir with a sump pump which is controlled with a Float Sump Pump Switch which activates the sump pump when the water hits a predetermined level and flushes in down the drain. The water levels in the tanks are controlled by float valves, as the water in the tanks exits, the float valves allow water from the storage reservoirs to enter the tanks. The water storage has already passed through a sediment filter and a carbon block, its heated and the pH is adjusted using a pH Controller. I use a similar process for my breeding pairs except they get RO.
I thought it up in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep...

[gunnerschh2]

Heidi, You must live where there is no frost, cain't put all that piping outside in the NORTH. Harry

[HappyFace]

Nice system HappyFace!
I've built a drip system as well for my fry tanks so that I can change water continuously 24/7. Any changes in temperature or pH occur gradually over a period of time so as to reduce stress. I use 10GPH pressure compensating drip emitters to exit water out of the tanks into a reservoir with a sump pump which is controlled with a Float Sump Pump Switch which activates the sump pump when the water hits a predetermined level and flushes in down the drain. The water levels in the tanks are controlled by float valves, as the water in the tanks exits, the float valves allow water from the storage reservoirs to enter the tanks. The water storage has already passed through a sediment filter and a carbon block, its heated and the pH is adjusted using a pH Controller. I use a similar process for my breeding pairs except they get RO.
I thought it up in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep...

That is great! I think it's wonderful that people devote so much time to their fish manually changing water but making it easier on yourself and less stressful for the fish is also very good. :)

[HappyFace]

Heidi, You must live where there is no frost, cain't put all that piping outside in the NORTH. Harry

Yes I live in central Cali, thankfully. The water is constantly flowing though so even if it freezes it should still work. You might need to insulate the incoming water line though.

[afriend]

Happy Face,

I'm really impressed with your tank, the fish, and your water exchange system. With all the things you have to take care of, I can fully understand why you need an automated water exchange system. Nice job, did you do it yourself?

I notice that you are using holey rock. I'm pretty sure it's from Universal Rock, the same thing that I have in my tank, only I'm using one of their backgrounds to cover up the back of the tank. Thought I'd show you what I've done with mine by using a programmable LED lighting system. The holey rock reflects light extremely well and can be used to add a lot of interesting color to a tank.

93528

93529

93530

Notice the change in the background color. The pictures above just illustrate a few of the many colors that are possible, and are changed using a remote similar to a TV remote. This might be something to think about as a possible addition in the future. It's really not all that difficult to implement.

Paul

[HappyFace]

Happy Face,

I'm really impressed with your tank, the fish, and your water exchange system. With all the things you have to take care of, I can fully understand why you need an automated water exchange system. Nice job, did you do it yourself?

I notice that you are using holey rock. I'm pretty sure it's from Universal Rock, the same thing that I have in my tank, only I'm using one of their backgrounds to cover up the back of the tank. Thought I'd show you what I've done with mine by using a programmable LED lighting system. The holey rock reflects light extremely well and can be used to add a lot of interesting color to a tank.

93528

93529

93530

Notice the change in the background color. The pictures above just illustrate a few of the many colors that are possible, and are changed using a remote similar to a TV remote. This might be something to think about as a possible addition in the future. It's really not all that difficult to implement.

Paul

That looks amazing Paul! I really like your plants too. Thank you for sharing. :)

[MattArmstrong]

Heidi,

Thanks for sharing your system. Seeing examples of this working successfully is helpful!

Your system is not too different from the one described here by none other than Joey the King of DIY.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJ3eAE4qQE

I'm sitting on the fence, thinking about getting Discus, and am "stuck" because I don't have a good place to age water. I currently age water for a 50 gallon community tank, but no way can I do it the same way for a larger tank. My wife is nice enough to not complain when I roll a 36 gallon Brute garbage can and let it sit in in our living room for a day, but I did get a "that's not a long term solution" comment this past weekend. ;)

As long as I've brought up Joey, he recently put out a different video related to how he approaches his tanks, mostly pertaining to maintenance of the water. The quick summary is: simplicity and consistency. The most interesting, and new part for me, is that he looks for his fish to show no reaction at all to water changes. When he achieves that, he knows he's doing enough of them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abAKy0xgXyo

[HappyFace]

Heidi,

Thanks for sharing your system. Seeing examples of this working successfully is helpful!

Your system is not too different from the one described here by none other than Joey the King of DIY.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJ3eAE4qQE

I'm sitting on the fence, thinking about getting Discus, and am "stuck" because I don't have a good place to age water. I currently age water for a 50 gallon community tank, but no way can I do it the same way for a larger tank. My wife is nice enough to not complain when I roll a 36 gallon Brute garbage can and let it sit in in our living room for a day, but I did get a "that's not a long term solution" comment this past weekend. ;)

As long as I've brought up Joey, he recently put out a different video related to how he approaches his tanks, mostly pertaining to maintenance of the water. The quick summary is: simplicity and consistency. The most interesting, and new part for me, is that he looks for his fish to show no reaction at all to water changes. When he achieves that, he knows he's doing enough of them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abAKy0xgXyo

Wow I haven't watched it all yet but it does sound very similar. Interesting that they have irrigation parts that work for this setup; wish I would have known. I called every place in town, Rain for rent, home depot lowes plumbers supply companies. They said their systems are for larger irrigation gallons per minute, not gallons per hour. I even tried to hire 2 plumbers to help but no one would even touch it and no one had advise. I searched on the internet until I finally found my valved meter. Thankfully my husband is experienced with plumbing and was kind enough to help me. Actually I think he was scared I would do something wrong and flood the house, lol.

[MattArmstrong]

Wow I haven't watched it all yet but it does sound very similar. Interesting that they have irrigation parts that work for this setup; wish I would have known. I called every place in town, Rain for rent, home depot lowes plumbers supply companies. They said their systems are for larger irrigation gallons per minute, not gallons per hour. I even tried to hire 2 plumbers to help but no one would even touch it and no one had advise. I searched on the internet until I finally found my valved meter. Thankfully my husband is experienced with plumbing and was kind enough to help me. Actually I think he was scared I would do something wrong and flood the house, lol.

Honestly, I think using drip irrigation stuff for interior plumbing is a risk. That stuff is made with exterior use in mind, where a failure means something gets watered a little more than it is supposed to for a little bit. I'm not surprised no plumber wanted to even advise you on how to do this! :-)

[HappyFace]

Honestly, I think using drip irrigation stuff for interior plumbing is a risk. That stuff is made with exterior use in mind, where a failure means something gets watered a little more than it is supposed to for a little bit. I'm not surprised no plumber wanted to even advise you on how to do this! :-)

Very true. There are no plumber codes or handbook for aquarium plumbing and indoor drip-drain systems.

I think if the plumbing is done right it has no greater chance of flooding than any other drain in your house. Our 480g is done right with it's 1/2" drain and vent but our 200g drain is not done right it's too small, 1/4" with no vent so there is a risk of flood. I am hoping to eventually switch it out for a 1/2" drainline.

[tunerhead24]

Hey Happyface nice setup. I think drip systems are the way to go especially with discus, as long as you stay on top of everything I can't see why it's a bad thing

[HappyFace]

Hey Happyface nice setup. I think drip systems are the way to go especially with discus, as long as you stay on top of everything I can't see why it's a bad thing

Thank you Manny. :)

[Jbell]

Happy I hope one day to do something like this with my main 150 thanks for the post and giving us all things to think about.

[Boyd Luth]

Very nice set-up. Well detailed description. Hats off to Paul, and Ricardo for their input, and questions. At age 62, I am approaching the automated age in all areas :-) At this moment, I do agree with the Therapeutic approach....I have discontinued the bucket approach, and utilize the Fire Hose Brigade approach nowadays. My 275 gallon water tote on the back lanai some days annoys me visually ( closed in with painted plywood, and insulation ) Perhaps at retirement :-) Thanx for the info.