Bill (Tshethar)'s First Grow-out Project

[Tshethar]

The tank journal/grow out thread...


Seems to me that every tank we start and every attempt at decision-making along the way brings some surprises, some lessons learned, and hopefully some successes and some experiences (positive or not) that maybe can help others. Not to mention there is some enjoyment in sharing, whether triumphs or tragedies. I'm hoping for more of the former than the latter here, but that remains to be seen...

Like most people, I've started some different threads at different points in my process to this point--now two weeks in with my first discus.

The first threads (this past summer) talked a little about me and my time in the hobby; not so important, but if folks are curious, some personal and hobby history can be found here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120636-Hi-and-Thanks-for-the-Forum-enjoying-learning-here!

And then I started with questions and thoughts about my first tank set-up:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120638-Longwinded-newcomer-looking-to-cover-the-bases-tips-and-thoughts-welcome!

A few pics of the rehabilitation effort in progress:
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Once I got the tank moved in and all systems go, I started aquascaping with driftwood. Decided to follow others into manzanita wood, but had some issues I was unsure about. I actually think these may still be with me today (stay tuned and see below). Here you can at least get an idea of what my first attempt at getting a tank arranged for discus looked like, and an idea of where I hope my fish may ultimately go:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120872-Driftwood-Issues-Include-During-Growout-Phase

However, since the summer the tank planned for discus has remained my manzanita, bristlenose, and... mold(!) tank:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122674-Moldy-Silicone

Didn't worry too much about it until this point, but now thinking this is something I really do want to get rid of. Thinking of temporarily housing my BNs elsewhere so I can run bleach through this system and then re-cycle it. Not entirely sure whether I want to deal with wood in the system or not after this, along with the space it occupies, or whether the plecos will return or not. Maybe leaning away from them with the discus--they are messy! I do enjoy them, though, and may see if they grow and breed with Tanganyikan shell-dwellers in a 55.

93849

Meanwhile, been keeping in touch with Hans as I firmed up plans to grow out a group of juvie fish. He first encouraged me to get rid of the manzanita mold/slime, and to get at least 10 fish, preferably more. Didn't want to start with the group before planned holiday travel, and wanted to have some time off to watch them carefully, so I bided my time...

As the day got closer, I checked in and reported they were going in a 90. He thought it would be okay, but recommended receiving them initially at least in something a bit smaller, as a way of helping them feel secure, start eating, etc.. Given the need for QT and for easy daily WCs, I opted for a 40 breeder I could fit in the guest bathroom... (uh, thanks, honey...:blushing:).

At long last, fish arrived two weeks ago: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122626-It-s-D-Day-for-this-New-Discus-Keeper!!!-Thanks-Hans!

Good times.

However, since then there's been some drama, and quite honestly the not-so-fun part of this hobby, included an ER post and two quick deaths:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122742-1-or-2-Lagging-Behind-Possible-Issue-in-QT

To be honest, I'm twisting in the wind a little here, yet continuing to hold out hope for growing out a successful group, problems notwithstanding.

Tonight's news is that I'm linking back to that mold issue and thinking that some of those mold spores might be a source of irritation or worse. In hindsight I wish I hadn't brought over my established canister filter to try to ensure a cycled bio-filter on the new tank. I worried more about ammonia and nitrite than I should have given my WCs.

When I moved it over (an Eheim 2217) I changed filter floss but otherwise didn't the disturb media to preserve bacteria. Tonight I decided to take it apart and clean it and was surprised to see that after two weeks, my new floss has turned black, and doesn't rinse out. See what I mean?

93845

Yikes. Not normal. This led me to rinse the bio-media with tank water and keep aside, and to pull out and bleach the rest of the filter and its contents. Hoping it will stay clean now, and maybe will make a difference after tonight's 95% WC with aged water.

Meanwhile, wondering about how many more days (if any) before trying meds for two discus not eating.... came close to starting metro tonight, but trying not to overreact. Might try to get some frozen bloodworms or something first.... :confused:

So, that's where we are. Hoping to be able to follow this up in the days, weeks and months ahead with good news and good pics/video that will be more about fun and celebration than illness, anxieties and problems! (I did have the pleasure today of helping my six-year-old after he got home from school as he fed the discus a cube of FDBW out of his hand for the first time! Needless to say, he really enjoyed it, as did I.)

Anyway whatever happens, hopefully some good can come from it all. Thanks for reading and all the best.

--Bill

[rickztahone]

I noticed that in your cleaning process you seem to have resealed the tank? If so, what silicone did you use to do this?

Do not be discouraged, not everyone gets it in the first try, in fact, most fail the first time around, but, if you stick around, you will enjoy keeping discus as they were meant to be kept.

[Tshethar]

I noticed that in your cleaning process you seem to have resealed the tank? If so, what silicone did you use to do this?

I was careful about this--can't remember if I went with the Ace Hardware brand or GE I, but made sure it was 100% pure silicone, with no additives. Guess people can tell from how it looks that I didn't use the mold resistant stuff! :p


Do not be discouraged, not everyone gets it in the first try, in fact, most fail the first time around, but, if you stick around, you will enjoy keeping discus as they were meant to be kept.

Yeah, I'm in between right now. I'm a little bummed out about the early bumps in the road--I really detest losing fish, and it's no fun when certain types of effort don't yield good results--but that said, I'm enjoying the personality of the discus themselves, which makes me think I might really enjoy them long term. If I can get the ship on course from here I'm ready to take care of them.

Meanwhile, did a WC this morning and added the levamisole as part of typical QT. Seems like the next step and might help; fish did darken a bit and lost appetite, but from old threads it looks like this is normal. If it doesn't help, at least it will be over and done with if I need to start metro in a couple of days. Bumped temp up a bit more to try to stimulate appetite--we'll see if the heaters can get up to 88. If I feel okay later I might think about visiting the store for frozen treats like brine shrimp or bloodworms.

[rickztahone]

Only raise the temp for the metro treatment, don't raise it with the Levamisole.

[Tshethar]

Any danger in doing so? I've been keeping them a bit warmer, mostly as that's where I started, and some recommend it to stimulate appetite.

I do have extra aeration going... but can ease the temp back as needed.

[rickztahone]

When you treat with some specific meds you generally do not want to treat at high temps as the water oxygen saturation level goes down. Not sure if Levamisole is known to do this, but I recommended bringing it down just in case. You really only do high heat for metro and when they say raise the temp to stimulate appetite, it typically means 84-86 max

[Akili]

Even your plecos have proper dining etiquette how long it took to teach it to use a fork.:cool:

[Tshethar]

Even your plecos have proper dining etiquette how long it took to teach it to use a fork.:cool:

Truth be told, my young plecos are a work in progress when it comes to table manners. They rarely sit still and often insist on going upside down right in the middle of a meal. Not to mention, they're quite messy. I try to tell them that if they master the arts of fine dining, and mind their manners more generally, then good things await them in the future... :love: Hard to tell if they're listening, though.

93863

[Tshethar]

Well, nobody can tell me I'm not giving it a real go as a discus first-timer. Good thing my wife is who she is... :angel:...

...'cuz this is what happens when you really want to grow out discus and you don't have a fishroom...

93882

For those keeping score at home, you'll notice the Brute aging barrel now sitting in the shower behind the main tank. Found I can fill it directly from the shower head, which does a good job of degassing the water all by itself with the long drop into the barrel. Since I don't have a pH swing I've been able to "speed age" some extra water on the few occasions I've wanted to do more than a 70% change.

That was the case today as I finished the 24-hour levamisole bath. Didn't see any visible worms--didn't really expect to--but siphoned whatever on the bottom I could beat the fish to and everybody made it through fine. Nobody seems spooky or dark tonight, which is good to see as there had been a bit of that going on with 1-2 fish in the days leading up, along with some darkening from the treatment. Lots of clean water now and some carbon going....

Meanwhile, while the main group looks like it's growing fast and starting to show some color, I continue to have 2 that are stuck in neutral. Since they're 2.5" and haven't attempted to eat in 2 weeks+, I set up a 10 gallon tank next to the barrel, moved them in, and gave them their first dose of metro. Raised temp to 88. Got some frozen bloodworms and will offer them tomorrow. Wish me luck...

They don't look like goners yet to me, so maybe there's still a chance of turning them around:

9388393884

We'll see.

[Tshethar]

Today's update...

The not-so-good first: 2 small fish have been on metro for about 24 hours now, but haven't come around to eating yet. I do, however, feel good about the decision to separate them from the others and to give them an honest shot at recovery. Did 100% WC this morning, tried some frozen bloodworms, and elevated heat.

Tried again tonight--no go. Decided to offer uneaten bloodworms to other discus--they weren't interested. Yesterday they also reluctantly ate some frozen brine shrimp I picked up at the same time. While it may be because they're unfamiliar with these foods, I think it's more likely my local Petsmart has old stock. May try to return the stuff; not sure about going freeze dried instead--would really like to find something with which to temp the fasters.

Redosed tank tonight, keeping temp at 90. Expecting to lose them, but hoping the tide could still turn.


https://youtu.be/9Y0aKSpQh74

The better news: Main group seems to be doing well...


https://youtu.be/L2pmhYYAca0


And it's fun to feed them.


https://youtu.be/Ovq8ZDaKww8

Edit: darn, can't seem to embed videos for some reason. Oh well; not sure why that's not working. But if that's my biggest problem right now, I'll take it.

[Larry Bugg]

Above the box you are typing in you will see an icon of filmstrip. When you put your mouse on it, it says insert video. Click it. Copy the video url and paste it in the box. Thats it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y0aKSpQh74&feature=youtu.be



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2pmhYYAca0&feature=youtu.be



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovq8ZDaKww8&feature=youtu.be

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Larry. Appreciate the fix. I actually followed the process you described with the filmstrip icon, but we're good now.

Sorry to report that one of the fasting discus in hospital looks to be showing initial signs of fin rot. ☹️

Don't have any antibacterial meds on hand... Not sure what if anything to do. Still feels a little early to cull. Realize shotgun approach to meds is generally unhelpful... I guess tomorrow will be day 3 on metro. If I see some appetite I could order some kanamycin if that would be the way to go.

Main QT seems fine. Everybody eating, a couple of them darkening here and there but mostly acting normally. Temp down to 83 and going with 2x/day 50-60% WC.

[Tshethar]

Hi all--decided to pick up this thread and continue forward from here after spending most of February working to save these guys. While I didn't succeed in the end, I gained some experience and some help from dedicated forum folks. Ups, downs, drama... meds and live food, picture and videos here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122954-Saving-2-Juvies-What-to-do

Seems like I've been working with these guys longer than two months, but even now I'm a few days short of that time span now.

In reality, the introduction to the hobby was pretty rough--tried to do things right from the get-go, but still lost half my fish. So there's that...

On the other hand, I just returned from a week away, and found that under my wife's exceptional care (she's really wanted nothing to do with my long-term obsession with fish, but jumped in of her own volition and did amazingly well), possibly helped by a last minute equipment supplement (UV and purigen reactor was sterilized and recharged and added to the 40 breeder), the remaining fish were back to doing great with daily water changes and flake food!

Here's the setup for those interested:

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I think that and her light feeding and frequent vacuuming and smaller percentage water changes really agreed with them. I've fed a bit more heavily since returning, which seems to produce more aggressive behavior, especially with one fish, but everybody is eating well and I'm no longer worried that the whole group is going to deteriorate. The one fish is bullying in the video below, but nobody takes him that seriously most of the time. Haven't drawn a ruler on the tank glass yet, but some of these guys have grown quite a bit given they were 2.5-3.0" fish less than two months ago. Here they are this afternoon:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1xQgbgL1GM

And this evening:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmd_GyZHJ9Q

Hope to get around to bleaching and resealing the main tank in about two weeks, after which these guys will have some more room to keep growing.... :)

[Tshethar]

Unfortunately, my story with this group of discus does not seem to be a happy one. Opened an ER thread here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?123730-Immediate-Intervention-for-Whirling-Disease.

Looking to me unfortunately as though this group may never make it out of their quarantine tank. Hopefully some of these experiences might be of future use to someone, but sorry to say the approaches I've attempted have not been enough to ensure success. At this stage, I am about ready to call it quits, though I am bothered about what that will require. Will in all likelihood allow things to limp along for another week or so.

[Akili]

Bill, hats off to you! I have followed your thread in ER and this one too and you can be rest assured that you have given your best to do what is necessary for your fish.Do not blame yourself for any reason if it does not workout in the end.I am sure a lot of people including yourself and me have surely learnt a thing or two from this experience . My best wishes of successful Discus keeping for now and the future are for you!!

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Akili. Have appreciated your support and comments and that of many others as I took the plunge. I'm glad if the threads and such do something (anything!) to keep knowledge growing. I'll probably try to put together some lessons learned (based on my one experience) and maybe something positive can come from that. It's obviously more fun to celebrate stuff that is going well, or seems promising, but in the end it's good to report negative results as well. A lot of times we wonder what happened with various experiments and plans people try when threads go silent, presumably because of some kind of bad news. So, while the whole affair is kind of a downer at the moment, I'm not too proud to report failure! And I'm not really beating myself up about it. If anything, I'm thinking that some of the stuff I worried about at the outset may not have actually caused problems (for example, fungus or filter media from another tank), and instead it seems likely that my water supply is simply not clean enough to support discus (or at least Stendkers). Carbon, UV, and Purigen have also not been sufficient to prevent these problems. If I still had an RO unit around, I might experiment with it to see if the fish would turn around, which would be consistent with my thinking (hate to say "hypothesis," as it's really a guess). In the meantime, will keep changing some water and following med course so long as fish are living and not in terrible distress. And good luck and healthy fish to everyone.

[Phillydubs]

Bill,

I am really down to hear about all of this :( I remember you posting early on and I had chimed in and thought you were going strong and had a lot of good things in place...

Do you know anyone else local to you who keeps discus or other fish even just to get an idea if it is in fact the water?

It also makes me wonder how a good strong healthy adult would do in such water as opposed to young growing juvies. I know it might not be an experiment you are willing to try, but if you could get an adult or 2, like 5" plus discus and see...?

I hate to see you get discouraged and leave the hobby because you got a bad batch of juvies...

[rickztahone]

This really bites! I hate to see this happen. You have put a lot of thought and effort in to this and you still went through bad experiences, that is a shame. Many times, you simply have to step back from what you are doing and accept a bad situation and try to learn from it, no matter how small the lesson may have been. I am hoping you will not leave the hobby, but know that it is tempting to just call it quits.

[Tshethar]

Alright, I'm back from my little time-out, appreciate everyone allowing me to indulge my inner Eeyore a bit. Truth is I couldn't just kill off my last 5 discus when they still seemed like they had a chance. I went away from the Formalin after 2 doses over 4 days and started kanamycin and metro a day or so before these last group of posts, so approximately 12 days ago. Fish were less darkened but still hiding a lot, doing kind of so-so, with occasional appetite but not great. Worst fish seemed better, especially color-wise, when I started this treatment. Unfortunately, overnight after my second kanamycin dose (day 4), he died. Not a huge surprise given his loss of equilibrium/tailstanding, but too bad as he was my largest and best-looking fish.

Around that time I said the hell with it and bought a high-quality RO unit. I think I sent off for it a day or two before he died--maybe a little too late in retrospect--but in for a penny, in for a pound, I suppose. It took a while to show up but I've now been using straight RO (plus Kent RO-right) for water changes over the past 3-4 days and as of tonight I have stopped with the meds. Fish remaining are eating again and seem stable. The next couple of days I guess will tell me how they do without meds, but with clean water.

Overall, I think I'm a little nuts but it's kind of like gambling or some other addictive/compulsive activity, or maybe like the mob--at a certain point, there's no easy exit. :-)

I don't know what the endgame is going to be for these four fish, but I guess I can at least learn with them about just how much filtration they need (e.g., have thought about using various levels of prefilters but bypassing the RO membrane as an experiment at some point in avoiding waste water), but for now I think I'll just try to grow them out and see how things go. And now I'll be ready for breeding (ha!). Turns out my tap water has TDS of 40--so deceptively promising for discus!--if I can just find a way to keep the critters out. I saw there are UV units for the water supply... maybe something to think about down the road. Next step might be a vinyl shed for the back porch to set up operations, or if I'm lucky, a place to move mops and stuff out of the laundry room so I can take that over to set up my water station in earnest....

All too crazy in the midst of a busy life, but I guess it's better than the tank of death... :rolleyes:

Here are the survivors yesterday, not looking too much the worse for the wear:

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And tonight after filter cleaning and big RO water change...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1q48ntwXmU


Going to let the temp drop back to normal and see what happens next...

[Phillydubs]

Are you planning to use this as a test almost to play w the water so you get it right and then get a new group in??

[Tshethar]

I think that is the likely plan. We will be away for a good chunk of July this year, so I will probably wait and see what happens with these until August. At that point I'll see how things stand with this group, assuming they make it, and then think about bringing in some more. I don't know if I'm entirely convinced it's a great idea, but it is tempting to try another group of young fish from a different source, or possibly some young adults to get the numbers back up to 6+. I think I can work out water systems for the big tank and move these guys over between now and then, and experiment a little with different levels of water purification/treatment. Hopefully they'll do well and grow for a while, and remind me that they can be fun to keep. Here's hoping...

[Phillydubs]

I would keep that group seprate forever and not add to them.

You should try larger fish next time... I think you will find it more pleasureable

[Tshethar]

I think you're right on both counts, Phil!

I guess I'm still amazed or in disbelief/denial that the particular group I have will probably not recover. Likely this is no surprise to anyone experienced, but it still catches me off guard to see them up and down within such a relatively short time. Both times they've been on metro and kanamycin they have done so well, and seemed so normal, that I have found myself lulled into complacency about them, but when the fish have gone off the meds, they haven't done well. They're still getting RO water daily, about 50% WCs for 4 fish, but they're not so happy. The one who was darting before (the brilliant) is doing so again, and they're mostly darkened and hiding, though the other three will come out and eat, at least some of the time. I suppose there is a transition period coming off the antibiotics and all, so maybe they'll stabilize, but no way to predict, and obviously they're carrying something. I'm just going in briefly a couple times a day and doing my chores, so to speak, and am unlikely to add any further meds and will instead see if they can recover with just WCs.

I also think that some kind of a break will probably be in order for me if and when this group dwindles further, or I end up having to euthanize them. I've cheered myself up with thinking about how the RO unit can be the first step toward a FOWLR tank like one I used to have about 15 years ago--though pricing live rock and a good protein skimmer quickly reminded me why I didn't jump back into all that after I got married. The more frugal plan may be to try a peacock single-species tank (never done), or possibly get some unusual plecos or another batch of xenotilapia or enantiopus--fun small fish I enjoyed in the past. It's a bit irksome not to have made it to the best parts of discus keeping, and of course I was hoping to end up with some nice adults I could have for awhile, something that doesn't happen with the shorter-lived little guys. All in all, I imagine I will circle back at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later. If I need a new challenge when I get to retirement age, assuming I make it, I will certainly have this to remember!

[djdirte]

ive been following your tank journal since you started it shortly before my journal started. my current plan is to also start with juvies for the tank build i've done. i think in all honesty that you should stay the course with your discus project. the dedication you have for your fish is definitely there, and i definitely see success in the future for you. hang in there, and im definitely crossing my fingers for you!

[Phillydubs]

Bill,

Again, it bothers me to hear your dejection... Is this the first time you ever gave discus a go?

It sounds like you just had a mixture of evils that led to this point... I would stop w the meds, stay the course with your water changes and see...

That being said, I seriously doubt these fish will make a miraculous recovery... Hate to say it but you might be best to euthanize and move on, in all honesty you might be wasting time effort and resources...

I know you are down right now, but I say jump back in. You seem dedicated and willing... I just think that you got a bad batch or something freak occurred... If you go with 5" fish and keep up with your WC's you should be just fine, IMO...

[Tshethar]

Thanks again, y'all. Hope I don't sound too defeated (or defeatist) about the discus, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone else from giving them a go. I can see how they can be fun pets when they're feeling good. They're intelligent fish and if they're not spooked or skittish because of a problem, they're a pleasure to hang out with.

Of course, I'd be lying if I said I was happy about the current state of affairs, which is kind of a betwixt-and-between place with what looks like 3 maybe healthy fish that seem ready to survive post-meds and 1 still on the ropes. Not to mention they're in a temporary setup in a guest bathroom I want to be able to use for an actual guest (like the one set to arrive in ten days!).

In reality I feel good about going as far as I have to try to care for these guys as responsibly as possible--and I definitely hope that anyone who hasn't tried them before who happens to read this will better understand why the experienced folks giving advice might come across as ultra-vigilant about water quality. In my own case, I read enough beforehand to commit myself to daily water changes, but I figured there were other practices, like aging water, that I wouldn't have to worry about. I didn't count on (or prep my wife for) the brute trash can in the shower, or the hospital tank in addition to the QT tank, nor did I think I would be buying 5 different kinds of meds within the first 3 months, or losing half the fish within the first few weeks. Not to mention the live blackworms I had in the fridge, followed eventually by the RO unit hooked up to the bathroom sink! Sheesh, when I look back, I think my efforts were downright heroic ("Herculean?" "quixotic?"), if sometimes a bit haphazard or misguided.

While it actually pains me not to continue tenaciously vowing to achieve success at all costs, and it could well be that I ended up with a "bad batch," I don't think I could order up $600 worth of 5" discus (roughly a group of 6), which I can't actually afford, and hope that they wouldn't respond badly to a random pathogen that could show up in my tap water. Not anytime soon, anyway. Too much risk there, both financially and emotionally. It would be hard not to feel compelled by this experience to brew and age RO water, at least 50 gallons per day, and I'm not sure I would know if or when it was safe to expose them to straight tap water. And my wife really doesn't want to turn our tiny laundry room into a water making station, and when I think deeply about it, I don't really, either. Even if things had gone well, daily maintenance is no joke, and I hadn't even gotten the setup into the living room and away from the drain and water supply.

Anyway, hope this explains why I'll probably hit the pause button. In the meantime, I still have these guys and they may yet stick around and teach me some more, and hopefully make for some decent company. I do have a soft spot for the larger flachen ss in particular...

[Tshethar]

Probably sounded from the last few posts that I was folding my hand, but in actuality the story continues. Truth is, if there is an experienced hobbyist I knew near me who wanted to take my fish I would probably let them (hint, hint), but short of that, I've kept brewing RO water for these guys and mostly been leaving them alone. They seemed touchy for a while, and then I ended up fasting them for four days when my guest arrived on April 26. Basically, I had no space for my aging barrel for that week, nor much time to think about them, so I stopped feeding or doing WCs and let it be. Hard to say whether that possibly improved their intestinal flaura or whether they simply survived and passed another week with RO water alone, but in recent days the four survivors have been more active and have resumed doing things like eating some FDBW out of my hand. The sediment filter on the RO is turning brownish clay color--a little eye-opening--but maybe not unlike what others see after about a month of daily use? Not sure what the future holds as far as water supply is concerned. And there's a roughly month-long trip planned for July as well, when they'll be on their own....

But, for now, the adventure continues... (and I'm a little less depressed or irritated about it!) They are nice fish when you get to know them... :rolleyes:

[Phillydubs]

That's good news bill!!! I still say figure it out and try again... I feel like you got dealt a real poor hand and things don't usually go this way especially w the dedication you have showed.

[Tshethar]

Thought I'd jump on here once more to keep documenting things to the (bitter) end... Unfortunately, things took a downward turn over the last few days, again with very little by way of warning of symptoms. Very few variables have changed: as of about a week ago, I had four fish that were in the same setup getting about 50% daily WCs (no skipped days) with pure RO water remixed with some Kent R/O right. I had some days with all fish eating out of my hand and looking pretty happy, though I can't say they were quite as robust with their appetites as I remember them at the very beginning. (My FDBW are getting a little old, I thought.)

Once again, the only thing out of the ordinary that I did was to open up and clean my Eheim classic canister filter, though I'm always careful about it--rinsed media and sponge with tank water only, put it back together with some clean floss, end of story.

Within a day or two, I started to hear splashing, and have seen again what all of these fish have done prior to expiring: one fish hiding in the back corners especially at the surface, darkening some, and occasionally darting, sometimes in circles, before hiding again. Some rapid breathing but otherwise not much by way of visible other symptoms, though the fish in question (the Tefe) started to show signs of secondary infection (a cloudy eye) in the evening after this began. I did my usual water change and found him dead the next morning, about 4 days ago.

Not much has improved since, though for portions of the time it has seemed like the 3 survivors were "okay"--touchy but swimming around at least some of the time, and eating some. I wondered if I should be suspicious about my aging barrel, since there no chlorinated water going in there anymore and I haven't wiped it out recently, but that's about all I could imagine other than that these guys have simply continued to host whatever infected my tank pretty much from the get-go. Unfortunately another one (larger Flachen SS) started showing increased signs of distress over the past day or two, and died this morning. Meanwhile, his smaller runt friend tried to commit suicide a short time later it seems by jumping through the tiniest of openings (he survived for now). (Translation: he was hiding and jumping in the top rear corner behind the intake.)

So, 2 left. The runt and a fish that honestly looks like a beautiful, well-rounded 4-4.5" brilliant, at least when it's willing to come out. Sadly, I think it will probably be a short time until they both succumb. The small fish took a 4' drop onto tile this morning and looks about like the others did the day before they passed. I thought about the formaldehyde I have on hand to stem the tide, but at this point it's clearly better to let them go.

Sorry to be the bearer of morbid news, but maybe my admittedly bad experiences will help other people figure out what or what not to do!

Last video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6vJCp1SqUs&feature=youtu.be

Again, my hat's off to the people on here who keep these fish. I get that my experience has been unusually bad, but still. Obviously I wish I had started out with different fish, or had a painless way to compare with stock from elsewhere. For now, I can't really see keeping more discus, knowing now how sensitive they can be. I guess most of the old timers have been able to see things stay stable for long periods, decades even, but I'm not sure I could deal with anxiety about my tank/system/fishroom potentially crashing the way this one has.

I can't say I have another species of fish in mind that I am all that excited about keeping instead--the hobby in general has felt a little more like a job than an adventure for the past five months--but I'll probably try some non-mbuna Malawi deep water Africans or else try a low-tech planted tank with some micro species when we get back from our July travels.

I imagine in the future I'll jump back in and try again sometime--sucks not being successful!--though I might actually wait until I retire and have a different water supply somewhere. Or maybe the domestic fish will be that much tougher by then... We'll see. Life goes on!

Anyway, thanks for reading and hope y'all keep on keepin' on. :bandana:

[rickztahone]

Bill are they gasping at the water surface?

[cedar]

so very sorry to read your thread and i can't believe the difficulty you have had. :( I sure do hope you get the chance and the courage to try again some time. best to you and yours. :)

[Dave-UK]

silly question, but how are you transporting water from the ageing barrel to the tank?

[Tshethar]

Bill are they gasping at the water surface?

No, no gasping, though thanks for asking. Never has seemed like they were starved for oxygen (or suffering from ammonia poisoning, which maybe could have been a worry with filter maintenance). You pretty much saw the symptoms in that last video: they start getting paranoid and panicky, darting for hiding places and whirling when they find themselves in open water. Then usually they would expire within a day or two. (And that's what happened to the small flachen in the video, though he also had jumped and taken a fall as well.)


so very sorry to read your thread and i can't believe the difficulty you have had. :( I sure do hope you get the chance and the courage to try again some time. best to you and yours. :)

Thanks for the sentiment--you, too, with your tanks present and future! Honestly, I'm sure I'll try again sooner or later, and I'm grateful to the forum to help me keep perspective. I hadn't been keeping up daily with events on here and I mentioned something via PM to another forum member about possibly trying some discus from Eric at Carolina Discus; I then learned that he had posted a couple of days prior about an accident with a faulty valve causing him to lose most everything he and his family had been working with in his fishroom over a three year period. My story kind of sucks, but not at that order of magnitude.

I think if it was just me, I might jump right back into it, but I'm going to try to be sensitive to the patience the whole operation has required of my wife, who enjoyed neither the slow death and decline of the fish nor the commitment level, anxiety and sprawling equipment the whole undertaking spawned. It's probably a good idea to do something a little less ambitious to try to win back the household on the good parts about the hobby....



silly question, but how are you transporting water from the ageing barrel to the tank?

I picked up a cheap but powerful submersible pump on Ebay--something made in China but rated for around 1000 gallons/hour. I have a length of 1" vinyl hose hooked up to it that sits at the ready in the handle of the trash can, and I plug it in when it's time to fill. Ricardo has a link somewhere for a wireless remote control one can also add to a setup like this in case it's inconvenient to pull the plug on the pump while filling at the same time.