Saving 2 Juvies? What to do?

[Tshethar]

Well, I'm going to take a chance on the forum here and see if anyone is willing to render an opinion or two.

If I'm honest with all of you, I'm trying to keep my expectations low because my sense so far is that people are slow to recommend specific interventions.

So, 2 of my Stendker group from Hans have not been eating, either since they arrived or within 2-3 days of arriving in my tank. There were a couple of possible issues with husbandry/tank conditions I talked about in my tank journal thread and my ER posts (can be accessed through here if people need backstory: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122853-Bill-(Tshethar)-s-First-Grow-out-Project)--namely, possible microbubble issues from non-aged water and some concern about irritants or maybe pathogens from seeded filter used on QT tank. Think I've corrected these for now.

The 2 fish I'm talking about are now in a 10 gallon hospital tank, getting 2x/day aged water changes of 50-70%, dosing metro 2x per day and keeping temp at 88-90. Today will be day 6 on metro.

Tried feeding them FDBW, immune-booster flakes from Ken's (with garlic), and frozen bloodworms from Petsmart (that my other discus also rejected, possibly because they thawed and refroze or were old stock.)

Realizing I may have to cull these guys but I don't want to give up on them too soon. Last night I thought about ordering live blackworms from Dan. It just seems to me that if I can get them to start eating they can turn it around to a certain degree. Don't know what, if anything, to try.

Here's a photo from this morning.

94007

What would you do?

[Akili]

I would try some live foods like white worms or brine shrimp.

[Tshethar]

I will call my one local LFS and see if they have some live brine shrimp. (Just tried but they're not open yet.) I'm not too optimistic, as they are a small operation that mostly does SW fish plus birds, reptiles, etc. Not sure I have any other local options for live food, other than maybe small earthworms from the back yard...

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, I know these are juvies but let's see if the metro/high heat does the trick. Guessing you are continuing at least 10 days? Are they pooping at all? and if so, what does it look like?
Pat

[DISCUS STU]

I've had success under similar circumstances using metro combined with Kanamycin Sulfate for internal infections, to me almost a wonder drug.

It can be found in the lfs as Kanaplex or Kanacyn from Seachem. Their recommended dosing is very low with a lot of filler so double dosing is suggested.

Normally I would go with Kanamycin first, but since you're already dosing Metro it should be fine.

[Tshethar]

Hi Pat, thanks for thinking along with me on these guys. I am planning to go 10 days with the metro. I haven't seen them actively pooping but have found white material in the tank. It has surprised me a little as it has seemed more like white masses--round or ball-shaped, rather than stringy. Presumably intestinal tissue that looked like it would be an awkward/difficult shape to pass.

I didn't mention this but when I had seen this material I had wondered about whether epsom salt would possibly help if either of them (or both) had some kind of obstruction. Not sure if they get scar tissue or something similar. Not sure if adding this would be a source of added stress or not, however.

I also mentioned in my earlier journal thread that one of them does show some hints of white on the fringes of his tail fin, or what looks like early stages of external bacterial infection. That's been the case since about 24 hours after I moved him to the hospital tank. I realize the warm temps are not helping there. So far sticking with WCs and have avoiding adding more than the metro. (Don't actually have anything like Kanamycin or Oxytetracycline... considered purchasing but have held off. Based on my reading of the forum, I'm currently more inclined to throw money at live blackworms than antibiotics if I'm going to keep trying to intervene/spend $!)

Again, thanks for prompting me for more info and for sharing your expertise.

[Tshethar]

Hi Stu,

Thanks for that! I have read some old threads and noticed that folks sometimes use this, especially for internal secondary infections. Haven't ruled it out by any means... not sure if the early signs of possible fin rot would alter your view (or anyone else's) of possible first options if it makes sense to add something additional to the mix.

And I do want to acknowledge that I know different members approach the medication vs clear water issue differently, so thanks to everyone for willingness to publicly differ a bit in terms of approach.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, I do not think they will eat at this point but does not hurt to try. I do not think Epsom salts will hurt either. If the fish appears to have white edging on the tail you might consider trimming it off if there is plenty of length on the tail.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Thanks again to the both of you. I need to leave for work but will swing by the LFS later and at least see if there are any live food options. My sense is that live food is the only thing that might possibly tempt them.

Will give some more thought to whether giving the Kanaplex or similar is worth a shot as well, given that I've reached the point of extraordinary measures anyway.

It does seem like typical good care isn't going to be enough, and it may be that nothing is likely to turn things around. Good point about trimming fins as needed.

Thanks again, and will keep you posted.

--Bill

[DISCUS STU]

Good luck Bill. I've had this issue with newly received fish after transport and the Kanamycin worked for me.

[Tshethar]

Sheesh, folks, I can't believe the twists and turns of my fish adventuring... as I think you all know, sometimes you just can't make this stuff up...

So, the normal part of the day had me stop off at my one local LFS and discover that they didn't have any live food, or Seachem/obvious kanamycin products. Bummer. Enjoyed a conversation nonetheless and moved along.

Kept thinking about it, wasn't sure I needed to commit to a big order from the likes of Jehmco or Angelsplus so I found some Kanaplex on ebay I could get here by Monday for less than $8. Was thinking to use it complement the metro for the non-eaters.

Meanwhile, I have to (sadly) report that I can't figure out what the hell is going on with the group in my main QT tank. About 2-4 out of 8 of them have been looking really spooky and skittish at various points in the day over the past few days--turning dark, heading for corners, and most alarmingly, jetting/darting frantically, sometimes at the surface, until they finally lodge themselves behind some wires or sponges and rest for a while. Haven't really detected a pattern as to when. Just when I really thought, hey, I have to get opinions about this, I'll observe and everyone seems generally good, eating, with no aggression issues. The 2-3 biggest and friendliest fish continue happily along as if nothing is wrong. So, I did a 50-60% WC this morning before leaving, along with a similar % change and metro dose on the 10 gallon hospital tank...

Fast forward to late this afternoon: I'm in the living room and suddenly hear a crash in the bathroom... :shocked: ... race in to find the 10 gallon tank's makeshift stand in the shower has given way, tank has crashed, and a wave of water literally washes shards of broken glass and one of the fasting discus right up to my feet on the floor! :shocked:

So, in a decidedly unplanned move this fish and his buddy--after a frantic search and recovery operation, which turned him up underneath a plastic box--quickly found themselves back in my 40 gallon QT tank with the main group. Whew.

After an hour or so of cleaning up broken glass and water, and continuing to watch a couple of dark, distressed looking (other) fish, I broke down my canister filter and replaced pads/floss/sponge (while preserving media), and did another 75% WC with aged water.

Now "all-in", I went ahead and ordered some live blackworms from Dan's. Clearly not going down without a fight here.

Question now is what to do about the (interrupted) metro course. Former hospital residents have had 6 days. All fish have had prophylactic prazi x3 (at weekly intervals) and one dose of levamisole, 6 days ago. Typically would do another one tomorrow... now not so sure.

Needless to say, I have no idea where this will end up. Did I mention I have pneumonia? :shocked2:

Like I said, you can't make this stuff up. :bandana: Too crazy. So much so you really just have to shake your head. What to do? :juggle:

As always, advice welcome. (If I didn't need it I promise I would have consigned this soap opera to the tank journal section!)

Thanks in advance.

--Bill

[farebox]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think your sick fish are to far gone. I have had the same problems as you, and as a last course of action medicated. It's was just a matter of time before they expired, never recovered from constant WC's and the meds. Then again I claim not to be an expert, just passing on my experience with "sick fish". I really hate to see fish like this, but I guess this comes with the territory of the hobby of discus keeping. Oh yea, you said the fish came from Hans, I would check with him for any advise. He's really supportive with all the fish he sells.

[FishFanMan]

Don't give up, my last sick discus recovery took 3 months. 1 month watching it not really eat, 1 month of clean water without any change, then 19 days of Metro followed by 10 days of Epsom salt. Then it finally started eating again. This and most of my discus pretty much will only eat FD black worms.

[Akili]

Don't give up, my last sick discus recovery took 3 months. 1 month watching it not really eat, 1 month of clean water without any change, then 19 days of Metro followed by 10 days of Epsom salt. Then it finally started eating again. This and most of my discus pretty much will only eat FD black worms.My guess is if you want to have an experience and do not mind the expense then why not go for it.

[Tshethar]

Thanks for the support, guys. Honestly, I think my tank is basically crashing. No idea whether I'm dealing with bacterial issues, parasites, viruses, or fungus. I suppose I could ask a colleague of mine in the biology department to autopsy one of my fish--like the Tefe I found dead this morning, which was not one of the non-eating fish.

Added metro last night to keep the course going for the two who were already on it, and also because I was not liking the behavior of half the group.

Will probably scale back my WCs to once a day 50-75%, with some odd siphoning in between, and make sure water is fully aged.

I guess the live blackworms will show up and we'll see if the fasters will eat--they actually look better than half the other fish, except for their size. No more signs of external bacteria on the fins of the one I mentioned.

Ordered some rooibos tea and will add that to the aging barrel. Can't hurt. Will probably dose the kanaplex when it shows up days from now, assuming there are fish left to treat. The two largest still look like nothing is wrong, but don't know if that will last.

Truth is, this sucks. Roland, I may take your advice and give Hans a call. I've enjoyed talking with him a couple of times in the past, though at this point I'm honestly not that optimistic there's much he can tell me to do beyond what I've come up with from the forum. I agree that it doesn't hurt to try, and at least to let him know I'm having problems.

Will post some video in a bit, if it matters. Here's a quick picture of huddling, dark fish:

94027

[ericNH]

Wow, you're in the crucible now Tshethar. What a lousy discus experience you're having! I really hope it turns around for you because it sounds like you're doing all the right things in trying to keep your fish healthy. Stay the course, weather the storm - there are sunny skies on the other side if you can just make it through. I'm pulling for ya.

[Second Hand Pat]

The rooibos tea might help support them. I would be tempted to get another 10 to continue the metro treatment. As for the others you might want to pm Al (brewmaster15) and see if he has some ideas.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Bill.
Looks like you've had a rough time of it. I just went back thru all your threads and think I understand the issues and time table here. Based on what I read, you've had these fish for about 18 days. I do think that the core problem is you introduced something when you used media from your other non-discus tank. Not sure what but the kind of decline you are seeing points to that being very likely..Unfortunately many fish can harbor Disease and show no symptom, but pass it on to other fish that having not seen that pathogen...crash.

Theres 2 more aspects to this, one is you've been sick the whole time with Pneumonia.Having had that myself I know how hard it is on the body and mind. Its really hard to keep track of everything. Be very sure to right down what you are doing each time you do and keep tabs on anything added to the tank..including dechlorinators. Miss one and it could explain the skittish behavior, loss of appetite and hiding and death.

The other thing that you need to look into is your water. You have municipal water.Do you know if they add chloramines or chlorine? See if you can access a water report. I'm also wondering about heavy metals in your water....Iron is one but particularly copper. When you had africans you added buffer... Copper is less less toxic at high pHs, in your current set up for the discus it may be a problem.....its a long shot but would explain everything.

al

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Al (and Pat, and everyone else).

Yeah, not the entree into this domain I was hoping for! Assuming the fish didn't come in with something, then it could well be something from the "pleco" tank. Haven't seen any behavior there that would give me particular clues, as those guys have been fine. Only obvious issue is the mold/fungus you already know about.

It's true that my own illness hasn't helped much, though that's is probably taking more of a toll on my general attitude than anything else, so far--except maybe my ill-advised decision to put my hospital tank on an Ikea computer desk in the shower... I did catch myself forgetting the Safe one time, but quickly recovered and did so seconds after the fact, so I am sure I have not neglected to add it otherwise. Been trying to keep the chlorine in the barrel for most of the aging process to avoid slime/bacteria in there, but do realize this could lead to a mistake like the one you mention.

I was personally starting to wonder about the water itself. Fish didn't look noticeably "happier" after a big WC last night, which seems kind of odd as theoretically it should represent an upgrade over what they'd been swimming in. It actually occurred to me to put a bag of carbon in the barrel for the first 8-12 hours of aging, and then to switch it out for a bag of rooibos tea for the next 8-12 (once that shows up).

No more deaths so far today, but still concerned. Seeing some whirling from at least one of the dark fish. While the two largest and healthiest continue to hang out like pets in the way on might expect (or hope for), the others still seem "bugged." Here's a video from this morning.


https://youtu.be/UPJE5RyefH8

Thanks,
Bill

[Tshethar]

Also, Al, I was able to find a water report online for my city. It's a little dated (2014) but didn't immediately raise any red flags for my untrained eye: http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/eng/ccr/189.pdf

Looks like there's low levels of chlorine but no chloramine; not sure how to gauge the copper but it looks to be reporting low.

Given where I am now, do you have any thoughts about what you might or might not do?

(Did one dose of metro yesterday... not sure about doing anything else today, outside of one water change... As mentioned, I'm sitting on PraziPro & levamisole, and will have Kanaplex and rooibos arriving Monday or Tuesday.) Feeding light. Temp is partially elevated right now... maybe about 85-6.

[brewmaster15]

Bill,
Part of the problem is you have several very aggressive eater there. You may need to upsize your tank....one thing you can try is to put a mesh divider in the tank...weak guys one side strong guys other..and get that intake sponge the weaklings are hiding behind off the bottom so they cant hide behind. Even the hydro can be moved to the tank center removing hiding spots.

[brewmaster15]

Might have missed this but what do you use to treat your water?

[Tshethar]

Using Safe to treat the water.

I agree that I am seeing some dominance/resource guarding from the 2 healthiest fish (the red turq is currently the alpha followed by the Flachen x SS you see there).

I wish that the hiding from the others was only (or primarily) about bullying... but will still try to minimize as I can.

Will try to rearrange as I can to move stuff to the center/off the bottom... can look into a divider as well.

The 6' 90 gallon tank awaits them, but currently with plecos and some moldly silicone.... wasn't sure whether to move the fish and sterilize that tank before moving this group or not.

[brewmaster15]

I'd take the plecos and put them in a garbage can or rubber maid plastic bin with the driftwood and heater and filtration... bleach the 90 and scrub off the black on the silicon.. It will probably come back if you don't reseal it with a a smooth bead of aquarium silicon...If you clean it real well you may be able to just go over it with new silicon.

I'd get that 90 ready as soon as you can...It may go along way towards solving you problems.

al

[Tshethar]

Crap. Went to check on them and move the sponge. Lost another.

94029

Not sure this is "inspiring" material for the board, but I guess it's good for people to know about. Honestly, I am a little amazed that you long-timers live through this stuff and keep at it. I'm not sure whether or not I'm going to have the fortitude.

[Tshethar]

Al, would you bleach the filtration as well to kill pathogens? (I've got an Eheim wet/dry and a 2217 on the 90.) I'm assuming so, but realize this will mean moving survivors to an uncycled tank. Okay with daily WCs? Or better to preserve some biological stability?

Thanks again.... off to pick up my new prescriptions(!). (I've been downgraded from pneumonia to bronchitis today, which I think is a little better but not entirely. Maybe at the pharmacy they can throw in some anti-psychotics and some anti-depressants!) :crazy:

[Second Hand Pat]

Hang in there Bill, the help you are getting now doesn't get any better.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Al, would you bleach the filtration as well to kill pathogens? (I've got an Eheim wet/dry and a 2217 on the 90.) I'm assuming so, but realize this will mean moving survivors to an uncycled tank. Okay with daily WCs? Or better to preserve some biological stability?

Thanks again.... off to pick up my new prescriptions(!). (I've been downgraded from pneumonia to bronchitis today, which I think is a little better but not entirely. Maybe at the pharmacy they can throw in some anti-psychotics and some anti-depressants!) :crazy:


The Discus have filtration already...so you would move this to the 90Gal with them. At this point bleaching the tank is to get rid of the black algae on the silicone. My understanding is that you have already contaminated the Discus with anything the Pleco may be carrying because thats where you got the Discus Tanks Filtration, correct?

al

[Tshethar]

The Discus have filtration already...so you would move this to the 90Gal with them. At this point bleaching the tank is to get rid of the black algae on the silicone. My understanding is that you have already contaminated the Discus with anything the Pleco may be carrying because thats where you got the Discus Tanks Filtration, correct?

al

Yes, that is correct--the seeded filter media and intake sponge with the discus now came from the 90, so there has been cross-contamination of the two tanks. The 90 does have a 15 watt UV on it along with a purigen reactor, FWIW. In my own mind, I haven't been sure whether what I'm dealing with that's affecting the discus is more or less likely to be caused by the mold/fungus itself or by something carried by the plecos. (Or perhaps something they brought with them.)

And while I might bleach for aesthetic reasons, that's pretty secondary under the circumstance. If it isn't likely to make a difference with fish health, then I can skip the bleaching and mix them anytime, if the larger tank and better filtration might be of help. (Will at least clean thoroughly first and do a big WC.)

[Tshethar]

Hang in there Bill, the help you are getting now doesn't get any better.
Pat

Thanks, Pat.

[Tshethar]

Wow, you're in the crucible now Tshethar. What a lousy discus experience you're having! I really hope it turns around for you because it sounds like you're doing all the right things in trying to keep your fish healthy. Stay the course, weather the storm - there are sunny skies on the other side if you can just make it through. I'm pulling for ya.

Wanted to circle back to you, Eric, at the end of the day and say thanks. I appreciate it--a little commiseration and encouragement does take some of the edge off. I usually lurk on here when I'm reading other threads--wait for the most knowledgeable folks to weigh in and all--but I might drop a few posts like these down the road when somebody else's carefully laid plans are crashing hard. :)

P.S. Your metaphor of the days sounds appropriate from what I just heard from my sisters in your neck of the woods--hope some of you get to enjoy a snow day tomorrow. :sun:

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Pat.

Thought maybe I should add after my plea for psychological help earlier that while I am a little flummoxed to be sure, in some way the whole affair has been so surreal, so absurdly catastrophic--at least in comparison to the fantastic delusions a middle-aged hobbyist like me can dream up in front of my keyboard--that it leaves me in an oddly detached place from which I can only shake my head and try to find the humor in it. The death part is never funny for me--quite serious, actually--but the great unmet expectations and the middle-aged fantasy part are. My wife, patient soul that she is, has consoled herself through all this by noting that all this is still a better manifestation of a mid-life crisis than having an affair! :laugh:

[Second Hand Pat]

Agree with the wife :p and hope things get better. :)
Pat

[Tshethar]

Meanwhile, for people interested in the fish...

Basically, I'm taking Al's thoughts seriously that the development of food aggression/pecking order dynamics could be adding stress to some of the compromised fish. Seems plausible, though my lack of experience with these guys makes it hard for me to gauge how big a factor it is. Seems like some additional video might help, so I decided to shoot some to see group dynamics.... And while I do hope to get them moved sooner rather than later, it's realistically going to take me a few days to get things sorted out, especially if I end up bleaching or resealing the other tank. Also unsure about mixing the discus and plecos or putting the latter in another setup. In the meantime, here's what things are looking like:

First video is the group after a quick bottom siphon and moving of the sponges, before feeding or any WC since today's earlier two losses:


https://youtu.be/B2Pkpo7NprY

The second is after some immune booster flakes were offered, prior to WC. You'll see everybody seems to be eating okay, except the two (stunted) fasters... From what I can see, not so much aggression. I did notice after the clip that when there was some scarcity near the end, a few of the bosses would move some others off the best spot for last bits, though it didn't seem overly pushy to me:


https://youtu.be/J1eBxlcFZnI

Third video is after WC. I bagged up some fresh carbon, rinsed well and placed in the aging barrel above the aeration for about 30 minutes to an hour. Also added a 1/4 teaspoon of metro to the tank (40 gal) and about 1/8 tsp. of Safe for chlorine. Then offered FDBW:


https://youtu.be/ukEPv9vy1k4

General enthusiasm, though perhaps a bit muted after eating other food, plus whatever combination of things is causing stress. More or less looking okay, though you can see one in particular who is pretty dead set on curling up and hiding somewhere.

Today is 7 days after the first and last levamisole treatment. Didn't do it given all that's going on. Not sure if or when this is something to revisit... I guess for now sticking with metro only, at least until Monday when kanamycin becomes an option.

Live blackworms are showing up tomorrow morning.... Not sure if ordering these will turn out to be one more excessive, expensive contribution to my quixotic quest--kind of imagine so--but hey, why not have some worms in the fridge at this point, right? :laugh: What could possibly go wrong? ;)

[Kyla]

this may be a moot point. what kind of current is in the tank? is that a green intake tube for a filter? i cant see an output so i may be wrong, but in the vid it sometimes seems as though the fish are swimming against or being pushed by current. if this is correct, u could try breaking up the current to create some quiet zones and that could help a bit. i have used sponges on the outflow, and have seen ppl use plastic pop bottles drilled with lots of little holes tethered to the outflow to interrupt the current.

[farebox]

I've been following this thread and must commend you for effort in dealing with your fish. Maybe think about getting your 90G cleaned and ready, but hold off transferring the remaining sick fish over to it at this point of the game. I would let things work it self out in the current tank, keep medicating, and we all hope for an positive outcome. In the mean time take a good look at Al's video on utube about keeping discus. I just went thru some problems with my 125G tank as you. I did the prazi pro + metro thing for the whole tank and ended loosing 4, and moved 3 to an 55G. Finally the 12 remaining fish in the 125G seem okay, all eating good again and no white feces. The other 3 in the 55G still refuse to eat, and find some white feces in the tank bottom. I just do 50%+ WC daily, no more meds,( ran out and not spending anymore $ for meds) letting faith run it course for now with the 3 in the 55G.. After watching Al's video about 4 times, ordered six 2.5" Tefe's from Hans and following Al's advise to the "T"....honestly must admit this are the first time that I've had new fish eating and swimming around in their 40G breeder tank like some very happy campers. It's been almost three weeks now and all is great with these guys. So what I'm saying we all have some problems, don't give up, take a step back and regroup. That first QT step is very important as I have found out the hard way, lost some good fish and dented the pocket book in my haste. Good luck my bud, keep on trucking.

[Tshethar]

I've been following this thread and must commend you for effort in dealing with your fish. Maybe think about getting your 90G cleaned and ready, but hold off transferring the remaining sick fish over to it at this point of the game. I would let things work it self out in the current tank, keep medicating, and we all hope for an positive outcome. In the mean time take a good look at Al's video on utube about keeping discus. I just went thru some problems with my 125G tank as you. I did the prazi pro + metro thing for the whole tank and ended loosing 4, and moved 3 to an 55G. Finally the 12 remaining fish in the 125G seem okay, all eating good again and no white feces. The other 3 in the 55G still refuse to eat, and find some white feces in the tank bottom. I just do 50%+ WC daily, no more meds,( ran out and not spending anymore $ for meds) letting faith run it course for now with the 3 in the 55G.. After watching Al's video about 4 times, ordered six 2.5" Tefe's from Hans and following Al's advise to the "T"....honestly must admit this are the first time that I've had new fish eating and swimming around in their 40G breeder tank like some very happy campers. It's been almost three weeks now and all is great with these guys. So what I'm saying we all have some problems, don't give up, take a step back and regroup. That first QT step is very important as I have found out the hard way, lost some good fish and dented the pocket book in my haste. Good luck my bud, keep on trucking.

Thanks, Roland. I've enjoyed seeing your setup and admired it, and remember seeing you ran into some issues a while ago--sorry it turned into some losses. I guess everybody on here carries some scars if they've stayed in the hobby long enough, though it always seems so unfortunate when people are going the extra mile to do things right and not take shortcuts. I guess I also learned that one small impulse move ("crap, fish are coming and the QT tank still hasn't cycled with the bottled bacteria--better move the sponge over") might be enough to undo all the other careful planning.

The more I watch my fish the more I think Al is right that some of the darker, more timid fish will feel better without the two aggressive eaters prowling around, especially when there is some leftover food in the tank. The group looked better when I came home and everyone was hungry, and a little less so when what I think of as subtle food aggression was noticeable. I'm going to see if I can work out some kind of tank divider--might have to be egg crate--while I keep going with the meds and more than likely reseal that other tank. (Which will probably happen after I finish my own meds...)

Anyway, I'll keep on truckin' for sure... funny you say that, as that takes me back about 30 years to my late teens--"Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me/other times I can barely see/lately it occurs to me/what a long, strange trip it's been!" :bandana:

[Tshethar]

this may be a moot point. what kind of current is in the tank? is that a green intake tube for a filter? i cant see an output so i may be wrong, but in the vid it sometimes seems as though the fish are swimming against or being pushed by current. if this is correct, u could try breaking up the current to create some quiet zones and that could help a bit. i have used sponges on the outflow, and have seen ppl use plastic pop bottles drilled with lots of little holes tethered to the outflow to interrupt the current.

Hey Kyla, thanks for the input. Another eagle-eyed member noticed the output on my 2217 when I first got these guys and did warn me about too much flow. What I did after that was to point the spraybar directly down, so that it creates mostly a vertical wall along one side of the tank. I'm pretty convinced that it has made it easy for everybody to hang out without exerting themselves too much, though I do have some sponge laying around I might play with a little, as well as a micron sock. In some of my video what happens is flake food on the surface gets propelled down, and I think some of the discus actually enjoy waiting for it and trying to catch it as it shoots by. Sometimes that sends them off chasing it down, but most of the time I think they avoid battling the current, unless they feel like it. Will definitely keep an eye on it, though, especially if adding a tank divider changes the dynamics a bit.

[Tshethar]

Today's video update:

No more death or destruction... things seem a bit more stable. Could be carbon in aging barrel helped, could be 2nd day of metro in the main tank is helping as well. The worms have come! Not so surprisingly, no go with the fasters... they may have their sights set on the next world. Rooibos will be here soon, then kanamycin. Will try. At least they don't seem distressed.

With my helpers today...


https://youtu.be/jqclSWXttJQ

2nd go-round with live worms:

https://youtu.be/go32LhXEgoQ

[DJW]

To me the current looks excessive. I have the same spraybar, and like things more serene, so I drilled a bunch more holes in it, some on the back and a few on the bottom, to slow it down.

By the way, did the pigeon people ever clarify the ambiguous markings on that bottle of Levamisole?

Dan

[Tshethar]

To me the current looks excessive. I have the same spraybar, and like things more serene, so I drilled a bunch more holes in it, some on the back and a few on the bottom, to slow it down.

By the way, did the pigeon people ever clarify the ambiguous markings on that bottle of Levamisole?

Dan

Hi Dan and thanks for checking in. Glad you reminded me about that Vermisol, and the fact that the pigeon folks mentioned they ought to hear back from their supplier after Feb. 1. I'll write back to them, as I haven't heard anything. I got thinking that the difference between 7% vs. 20% was almost close enough to put me within general dosage recommendations (something like 2-4 ppm IIRC), but given that this is my first time messing around with all this, and I wanted to get some metro anyway, I went ahead and ordered the 100% from Angelsplus and promptly forgot about it. But I will follow up in case other people have the same container.

Meanwhile, decided I'd be dumb not to do something about something you, Kyla and Phil (IIRC) all noticed, so I found a scrap of some braided hose I had around, drilled a bunch of holes in it on four sides, and slipped it over the existing spraybar. (Didn't want to drill that in case I wanted to use it normally at some other time.) Seems to be an improvement:

94077

[Tshethar]

I've been in and out with the fish today, but in general they are looking better. When there isn't any leftover food to guard, and they're hungry, for example, then they swim as a group and seem to be acting more normally.

94078

Since I started on the metro, partly after my mishap saw me suddenly mixing my hospital residents back into QT, things have at least stabilized since a couple of days ago. Don't know if that was the cause, but I'll take the result.

I'm not sure how many folks would endorse, but the Kanaplex arrived and I decided tonight to give it a go. Basically, a last chance for the fasting fish, one of whom has been picking at the bottom but neither of whom have (yet) gone for the live blackworms. I realize it's got a lot of filler, but I wasn't sure how many doses I could get out of it--advice on how many days would be welcome--so I dosed at 1.5 the recommended amount. Day 3 on metro. Still holding off on the levamisole--figure I can think about staging doses of that once I get through what I'm in the midst of now.

I didn't get out today to figure out something as a tank divider, but it is clear that will help. Once food has been laying around the tank for a while, there's some aggression. I've seen a little bit of scratching/flashing--only a couple of times--from one of the sub-dominant fish (Flachen SS #2), but nobody looks crazy, thank goodness.

Worms arrive at day's end:


https://youtu.be/UVBUuySjGJE

Pecking order and dominant fish after dinner:


https://youtu.be/7CNtxRypbP8

Thanks for keeping up and advice welcome. I realize this is somewhere between tank journal, ER post and general give-and-take. If mods ever feel the need to move or condense, feel free.

[Kyla]

the flow looks way better! here's a pic of a divider i had cut and drilled by a local glass company. u could try calling glass places in ur area - even tho they specialize in glass they may have some plastics too. this divider is made of acrylic and just held in place with suction cups on either sife of it. it has holes which allow water flow.

i like this type more than eggcrate because ive had fish cut themselves up pretty bad on the eggcrate in the past. and i like having clear dividers so the fish can still see each other (esp if im putting a lone fish on one side).

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/1A54CFAC-E4C9-4FA8-B347-DCA410BABFC2_zpsfbdm2sxv.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1A54CFAC-E4C9-4FA8-B347-DCA410BABFC2_zpsfbdm2sxv.jpg.html)

[Tshethar]

the flow looks way better! here's a pic of a divider i had cut and drilled by a local glass company. u could try calling glass places in ur area - even tho they specialize in glass they may have some plastics too. this divider is made of acrylic and just held in place with suction cups on either sife of it. it has holes which allow water flow.

i like this type more than eggcrate because ive had fish cut themselves up pretty bad on the eggcrate in the past. and i like having clear dividers so the fish can still see each other (esp if im putting a lone fish on one side).

That's a nice solution, Kyla. I didn't have the best experience last time I worked with the local glass guys--I needed a custom-sized canopy for my odd-shaped 90 gallon Craigslist special--but I appreciate the help thinking about what I can do. It's probably temporary and so cheap is preferred, and the acrylic I looked at recently for a lid at the big box store was expensive. I'm glad you shared your experience with the eggcrate; I have never used it for this purpose and would not want to see sharp edges becoming an issue.

Part of my problem is that the 18" depth seems to rule out the standard-fare pre-fab (and relatively cheap) tank dividers. I might check with the craft stores if I can go around tomorrow and see if there is some nylon screening they have I can work with. I could imagine siliconing or zip-tying some of that on either side of the eggcrate if I need the stability of the latter, with suction cups around it as you've done.

If folks have better or other ideas, great. The easier the better at this point!

[DJW]

Plastic coated wire mesh. Very cheap alternative.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/YARDGARD-3-ft-x-5-ft-x-1-2-in-19-Gauge-PVC-Hardware-Cloth-308254B/202024056

[mee]

Your sponge has a very large amount of flow too IMHO, maybe dial it down to about half the flow (in a 40 gallon or larger tank this would be fine, but it seems to be about a 15 or 20?). Those younger fish look very close to being ready to eat, but this may help calm them a bit. All and all they look like at least the vast majority are going to make it. Good Work !!

[Tshethar]

Your sponge has a very large amount of flow too IMHO, maybe dial it down to about half the flow (in a 40 gallon or larger tank this would be fine, but it seems to be about a 15 or 20?). Those younger fish look very close to being ready to eat, but this may help calm them a bit. All and all they look like at least the vast majority are going to make it. Good Work !!

Hi mee, thanks for helping me keep an eye on these guys--I appreciate it! I admit I've been a little unsure on aeration--like everything else with discus since I'm a noob with them--but right now I feel a little better with some extra, mostly because I've got the temps a little on the high side for the metro treatment (running 86-7ish), and because I know certain medications in general can act as reducers and lower my dissolved oxygen levels, which would be a bigger problem at higher temps. I don't know if that's likely to be a concern with what I'm doing, but was basically erring on that side. Also, the tank is a 40, which does help.

I'm happy to say that tonight everyone seems able to hang out a lot more peacefully than I've seen in previous days... and I think you are right to think that the younger fish are getting close to eating... (stay tuned...)

[mee]

Hey Tshethar, I kinda figured that was why you had so much air flow, half of that would still be ample even with the heat and meds. The bigger fish can definitely handle the current, and the smaller ones usually can, but when fish are sick or weak from not eating it if you will like you going without food for a week and then going for a lite jog. The first day you may be OK, but every day you continue to do it you lose more and more of your energy reserve, and eventually burn out and just fall down... in the fish world this means no longer swimming.... Sorry for the harsh analogy, I do think these fish are likely to make it either way at this point...... but if it was me I would still reduce the flow a smidge. I am still relatively new to Discus (about 3 years), but pretty much kept Cichlids my whole life. If some of the real Discus pro's here disagree or think that much flow is necessary, I would listen to them first, but this is just my gut.

I really am glad they are doing better, and I think even if you lose one or two more before this is done, you have won the battle here. I haven't lost fish to stuff like this since... well a long time, but when I started Discus a few years back I had a heater flip out and kill Every fish in my main tank. Luckily I had just moved my largest and Favorite DIscus... but it was very sad and frustrating. The silver lining of the loss was that the heater company paid completely for the loss, which helped me buy some extremely nice Discus. The ones I lost were nice, but the ones I have now... well they are the stuff of legends =) So whatever happens, keep your head up, learn from it and move forward with what you have learned. Persistence, patience, humility and being brave enough to ask for help go a long way in the fish keeping world.

[Tshethar]

Appreciate all the discus enthusiasts quietly (and vocally) pulling for me, and pointing out stuff as we go.

Happy to report things seem to not only be stable, but maybe on a slow upswing. (Or, honestly, a dramatic improvement when I think back to the terrible darting and whirling I saw, with fish that were basically out of their minds. Looking at old threads, I know a lot of you have seen this before, and it is not good. Sorry for all the rest of you who have gone through it, and glad to say I haven't seen anything along those lines in a few days.)

Instead, the metro seems to have done some good, presumably lowering the numbers of internal parasites, and I started kanamycin yesterday. Saw one of the two fasting fish excrete a little bit this morning, something I hadn't witnessed in recent memory. Tank seemed peaceful today, even when there was food around. Not sure whether medications have taken the steam out of the aggressive fish, or whether snippy behavior and cowering were more the result of parasites. Honestly leaning more toward the latter.

Rooibos arrived today and I did a 50% water change and added some infused water this evening with metro (and Safe). Will repeat kanamycin tomorrow. Got my "hardware cloth" tank divider ready to go--thanks, Dan-- thinking I would keep the food bullies away from the timid fish, but when I visited the tank tonight, everyone just seemed as docile and integrated as a group as I could have hoped for, including after the meal. So, put it aside for tonight and will revisit tomorrow.

Believe it or not, one of the fasters started showing even more interest in food...

https://youtu.be/8QAQzGKE4DE

Then, he grabbed a worm and played with it for a while(!)...


https://youtu.be/Mrg3gtUalUQ

All in all, a good end of the day...

https://youtu.be/DMkv_jsRAbc

Hoping for a good week...

[DJW]

The little guy isn't looking as sulky as before. Just a reminder to check the water, the kanamycin can wipe out the bio.

[Tshethar]

The little guy isn't looking as sulky as before. Just a reminder to check the water, the kanamycin can wipe out the bio.

Thanks for this reminder--will plan to check the ammonia in the morning.

[Tshethar]

And mee, I'm going to trust your eyes and see if I can do a little better with the hydro sponge... truth is I lost the uplift tube section of it; need to use PVC or replace the tube for efficiency, I'm thinking, and the thing would do better if I moved the airstone/diffuser I have into the middle and went with one airline instead of two, likely dialed back a bit. I can then run one pump in the bathroom instead of two and still cover the aging barrel, which will be nice. (Never been a fan of the noise these things make...wishing I'd bought the Eheim instead of the cheap alternative the average reviewers described as "quiet." But clearly, such things have been the least of my problems of late...) Happy to live through some noise in my temporary fishroom if I can manage to get a decent group of fish out of this rocky grow-out!

[mee]

even the cheapy two or three way valves work great for regulating flow. With that much, or half that much flow I think you are still sucking plenty of water through the sponge without the uplift tube. If you have an acrylic shop near you you can have a very pretty uplift tube for pretty cheap so long as you luck out on the size or make an adapter.

There really are some quiet pumps, but they are usually the linear type. Honestly bubbles without airstones bother me more than the hum of the pumps, but I do prefer no noise as well. Right now my living room/fish room is more noisy than I wish.

Definitely sounds like the worst is behind you. I noticed a few videos back that one faster was interested in the food, always a good sign. I think you're gonna have a beautiful group before too long.

[Tshethar]

The worm has turned!

94100


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcKNU8ohsyU

[Akili]

Keep it up finally turned the corner, so happy for you.Live food works 99 % of the time.

[Second Hand Pat]

:thumbsup:

[mee]

Awesome!

[Tshethar]

:thumbsup:


Awesome!

Thanks folks! No video update last night as things are holding steady. 1 out of 2 fasting fish continued going after the worms last night, and with even more gusto, and is showing signs of gradually getting his digestion back on line. Naturally, this has been really encouraging given how dire things were looking for the whole group last week.

The other one, who is smaller, remains a long shot and because of his size would probably get culled by folks who raise fish on a regular basis. But at least for now he's hanging out peacefully with the group and showing no other signs of distress, so I don't see any harm in giving him some more time. If he can take his place in the future as a disease-free fish at the bottom of the pecking order, that would be great.

Next decision I could use some help with relates to the kanamycin sulfate: So far I've been dosing (mostly) according to Seachem's instructions for Kanaplex, which recommends every other day: "Use 1 level measure (included) to every 20 L (5 gallons). Repeat every 2 days until symptoms disappear or up to a maximum of 3 doses." Since I'm doing some degree of daily WC, and it was pointed out that the active ingredient in their formula is low (32%), I've been dosing at 1.5x their recommendation in the evening right after an 80-90% WC, and then on the second day, doing a 50% WC and not adding any. (I am continuing with metro.) I've now been through this cycle a couple of times+, with today being day 6.

If one reads dosing recommendations over at Angelsplus (for 100% kanamycin sulfate), one sees: "Dose at 1/2 tsp per 10 gallons. Re-treat every 48 hours for 10 days. Do a minimum 25% water change before each retreatment."

Thinking to be on the safe side I may want to follow the latter protocol and go every other day for 10 days, which may mean ordering some 100% powder so I don't run out. And honestly, if I think about the quantities each recommends, it seems like there is a big difference--I'm not the right person to start running calculations but the measure Seachem provides is tiny, and I'll bet I'm dosing less than 30% of the active ingredient recommended by Angelsplus.

If experienced folks have thoughts about how they would fine-tune this, or when to call it quits, I'm happy to hear. Thanks! :thumbsup:

[farebox]

Wow, you did it, just great....keep on trucking my friend!

[smsimcik]

Way to go Bill. I've been rooting for you. You definitely put more time and effort in on this group then alot of us would have.

[Tshethar]

Keep it up finally turned the corner, so happy for you.Live food works 99 % of the time.


Wow, you did it, just great....keep on trucking my friend!


Way to go Bill. I've been rooting for you. You definitely put more time and effort in on this group then alot of us would have.

Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, folks. It's been great feeling like I could try to figure this out with legitimate help and with some good people to share the ups and downs with. Very nice to try to transform the confusion and helplessness into some kind of a plan.

In ways most of you can probably understand, I've certainly been consumed (read: obsessed) with puzzling this out and trying to do whatever the hell I could once I found myself in the deep end. On one level it is probably a bit much--I like the tip in the contest thread about focusing on our relationships as much as we do our discus (!)--but on another level, it has also reminded me that when properly motivated I can be tenacious in a good way. It's all a little more than I might have chosen to pack into the initial learning curve, but I'm definitely salting away some experience... and it sure helps to see some promising results.

[Tshethar]

On that note, happy to say that juvie #1 is going from "sulky" to fiesty. I was able to catch him mixing it up with the big boys when I offered the live food tonight. And while he still does a lot of spitting, he is clearly enjoying himself and shows no signs of being intimidated by the gluttons:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLxqRjay_8Y

At the end of the above, juvie #2 is hanging out and maybe, just maybe getting closer... but not yet.

Maybe one of the most striking things about the tank in recent days is just how peaceful the dynamics have become. I reduced flow, primarily from the spray bar and a little from the air pump, and I opted for metro, kanamycin and rooibos tea. Have the tank divider ready to go, but intuition tells me things will go better right now without it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyM8o2PGBRI&feature=youtu.be

An hour or so after they finished their leisurely live meal (post WC and meds), they were looking at me again.. since I hadn't fed that much during the day, I decided to try some of Al's FDBW... Saw juvie #2 looking hard at the cone, and hanging around... left them alone... went back an hour later, and saw that he was working on passing a couple of weeks worth of tissue/obstruction:

943349433594336

Really hopeful he may have rebooted his digestion as well... Looking forward to seeing what tomorrow brings! :cool:

[mee]

Hope the lil one pulls through, definitely a good thing he passed that junk, hopefully he get hungry now.

[DomiDiscus]

He was just a little constipated this whole time :p glad they're all doing better!

[Tshethar]

Slow and steady seems to be the tagline for today...

Basically happy to report that as of last night, the lone remaining holdout has started to make his move... very tentatively, but nice to see him with a worm in his mouth:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuxiwjIgdMs

Tonight brings more of the same. Juvie #1 is showing consistent interest in the worms (though not much other food, from what I've been around to see), and is eating a little, and juvie #2 is intrigued... occasionally tasting. Good to see, but a little bacteria showing up on his dorsal fin reminds me that this guy is weak. Hoping he can start building a little strength. These are from a short time ago:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8JGH326Kbw&feature=youtu.be


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_9ueq72gjU&feature=youtu.be


I'm okay with the holding pattern for now, but also realize I'm probably not out of the woods. Good news is that the rest of the group seems to be doing well. Pretty soon I'm going to have to decide how long to keep dosing--the thread tells me it's been 8 days with metro for the QT tank (+6=14 for the fasters), and 6 days (alternating) of kanamycin. Not sure what if anything will help move along the stragglers from this stage; glad for now they show interest in the one live meal/day, which I might be able to increase a bit perhaps with reduced quantity.

Anyway, made it through the week and we're all recovering! whew! :thumbsup: Happy Friday!

[ericNH]

Your journey is what this site is all about. You started out in the discus hobby, ran straight into disaster, and instead of packing it in you came here and shared your experiences. Now several weeks later you've turned it all around with determination and a little help from your fellow discus-keepers here on SD. Thanks for sharing! Keep it up, I am following :)

[Tshethar]

Hey all,

Thought I'd keep the story going. Thanks again for the encouragement, both with the fish and with the thread. It occurs to me it might be a little self-involved to assume experienced folks would care that much about "heroic" (misguided?) efforts to save these juvies, and I also don't want to represent the decisions made here as some kind of model to be emulated by other newbies. Obviously I hope that what I'm doing makes sense and is justifiable in some way, but I'm basically winging it. So, there's my disclaimer!

As for where things are now, it seems to be time to wind down the meds, but things are still pretty iffy as far as appetite is concerned. I've done 10 days of metro for everyone (16 for the juvies), and an 8 day course of Kanaplex. Ordered 100% Kanamycin last week, but with holiday postal service, I didn't receive it in time to stay on course for 10 days, so will probably leave it as is and hope for the best. Still doing rooibos tea. Thinking to rest with just WCs for several days or a week and then probably revisit the levamisole (as part of QT, and to make sure they aren't harboring capellaria or nematodes).

As part of the learning experience, I'm scratching my head a bit about where to go next with possible food sources. Basically, the juvies are going after the live blackworms, but are mostly spitting them, and aren't transitioning to anything else (FDBW, flakes, pellets). This is where they are:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvA8J5Y3ow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_kIFEd-vJk


I am offering these 2x/day but not sure it's really going to work for them. Have been thinking about experimenting with hatching and culturing brine shrimp (!). A bit on the fence here--not sure if they would respond better to artemia or not--but otherwise I'm not sure where I'll be when the blackworms run out in the next couple weeks... I know white worms might be an option as well. Not sure what is easier or more worth learning about for the future.

I guess the good news is that the group as a whole seems to be doing pretty well--hope that stays the case as we transition off the meds. Getting some good growth, and pretty good demeanor among the survivors after the first month:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJoeXjAUI6A

[Akili]

Bill look into Carol's beefheart - will not dissolve in tank! thread link below. Before going out and buying a salad shooter I suggest freeze a well trimmed piece of beef heart and use a vegetable shredder to shred it. Feed it as a first feed of the day.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?34961-Carol-s-beefheart-will-not-disolve-in-tank

[Tshethar]

Well, time for another update; unfortunately, I can't say I'm feeling too good about this group and where things are headed.

As you all saw, the fish seemed to be doing pretty well while they were being medicated, but within a day of going off the metro and kanamycin, everybody is back to turning dark and huddling and hiding a lot of the time. Breathing seems a bit exaggerated to me as well; don't know if others see that or not.

Within 24 hours the group was doing this at feeding time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5m-lrsyEV4&feature=youtu.be

Last night I took apart the canister filter for the first time since medicating--about 10 days--and found a fair amount of crud in the filter floss, probably more than I thought I would, but no signs of anything unusual (i.e. black mold). Set biomedia aside, cleaned everything else thoroughly, and put back together with new floss, a new sponge and some new 50 micron fabric I polish with. Did big water change with freshened rooibos infusion. But truth is, 24 hours later they still seem skittish and off. Here's a picture from yesterday, which pretty much captures the mood:

94712

I'm afraid I'm back to general pessimism and uncertainty. Realistically, I've faced up to the fact that trying to do more by way of live or specialty foods for the minimally eating fish is going to be asking too much. It seems likely (almost inescapable?) that I'm probably going to lose (or have to euthanize) these two--they barely eat a few fragments of live worms when offered, and nothing else. If so, that would take me down to half my original group--close to the minimum number for workable group dynamics (6)--with none of the remaining "healthy" fish really acting normally at this point.

Moreover, I need to travel for six days in three weeks' time, which has me wondering if my wife and son will be watching the tank crash in my absence (if it doesn't happen sooner). Sure hope not.

Not sure what to do besides water changes, if anything, at this point. Honestly, it's not a good feeling. In hindsight, I really though the meds had taken me through the worst of it--and I guess maybe that's still possible--but as of now, I'm just not sure.

Happy to hear advice... otherwise will keep documenting, good or ill, and doing my WCs. Thanks in advance to the good folks on the forum and sorry to rain on the discus parade! :fried:

[ericNH]

Well try and take comfort in the fact that what you're going through is typical with first-time discus keepers. Maybe more than typical. My start was worse than yours. At one point I had two juvies each in their own net, hanging from the top of the tank, to alleviate "bullying", while I watched the rest of my discus die off. They were sitting in their little jail cells for over a week, and what a ridiculous bunch of shenanigans I went through. I've gone through more than 12 discus learning how to keep them healthy before I reached my current, stable group of 6 adults. It was hard to go through all that, but I'll tell you right now it was worth it. Good luck, and in the words of Captain Taggart, Never give up, Never surrender!

[Phillydubs]

Bill,

I am trying to catch up here and read all that has been going on... Let me start by saying that I am really sad to read all of this... I remember your thread when you started and with the fed ex truck and commenting then and you had your son helping and really seemed well on your way to success... This all has me puzzled and feeling bad for your circumstances... :(

It seems like you are doing all you can do to try and help... Since you stopped the meds have you been doing large daily water changes? I can't recall, do you age your water or does it go right from the tap?

Honestly, this is part of the reason why I have been hesitant to grow fish out and have always gone with young adults because even when you think you have it all figured out and do everything right, there are still variables that can come into play that leave you in this spot...

Seems like you have been getting solid advice and a lot of help so I don't think I can offer much else besides wishing you luck and hoping things turn around for you...

[Akili]

Bill I admire your tenacity.have you tried to dimming the lights.Leaving them in semi darkness may keep them away from huddling and give them a sense of security.

[mee]

I am sure others will chime in soon that have more experience, but I think Philly Dub is on the money about doing large daily water changes at this point. They may be feeling a bit funky from going from getting cut off the meds, I have never used those meds, so not sure the typical reaction, but if they are broad spectrum antibiotics, their stomachs are likely going to need to rebuild bacteria now. And keeping pristine water IMHO is what they need at this point since they likely have little immune system after the long treatment. If you can keep up with large (80% would be my recommendation) water changes daily you should be OK for your trip, as the cycle takes about 2 weeks, and as long as you keep to it until that point you should be able to avoid any drastic spikes that will harm them. Honestly, some may disagree, but I often cycle tanks this way. Worst case you will notice a single day where the fish look a little less than vibrant, and that's when you want to do an immediate water change, and maybe another one later in the day and repeat it the next day or two just to be on the safe side. After that hump, you have a fully cycled tank again, and your family shouldn't have any problems so long as the fish are healthy, which again, just my opinion, if they're gonna pull through, they will be fine by then. BTW, do you use conditioner, and if so which one? Also, if you haven't tried it, epsom salt is a very gentle way to help them pass gas, and blockage without the meds.

[Phillydubs]

I was also thinking, maybe for the time being, add something for them to find cover in or around... piece of drift wood or something... With all the chaos in the tank and the medicating and what not, they may simply just be scared and they have nothing to make them feel secure... hence the huddling and retreating to the filters...

I am not one who finds a plain bare tank appealing, to me I always have to have something else to break up the line of sight, thats just m personal preference... but in this case it seems like it can't hurt...

[nc0gnet0]

Dim the lights. add something for structure, and cull the two. Looks like the tank might be in a high traffic area? You don't have any pigeon bloods in the batch so maybe try a dark background and bottom.

[mee]

ugly to some, but big pvc or abs pipe pieces from the hardware store make for great hiding spots, and when healthy it can be fun to watch fish chase each other through them. The benefit is no chance of bringing in nasties. I think I read somewhere about ABS having something that leaches... but I used it for Frontosa, and had no problems even with weekly water changes With discus getting so much water changed so often I would not worry a bit about it. The Y bends are especially fun to watch the fish play in.

[Tshethar]

Hey everybody, been a hectic day and haven't had a minute to post since this morning--just wanted to say a big thanks to everybody for taking time to read and to put some energy into thinking about this with me, and to offering good advice.

All of you do a good job of helping me keep it all in perspective. I've had my moments of exasperation trying to "enjoy" my new discus hobby (!), but really, I couldn't help noticing the absurdity of my own attitude toward the fish, which (sadly yet naturally) is pretty much all about my own gratification and not so much about their actual condition! (I.e., Instead of genuine concern for their well-being, it's more like "Hey, what the hell is wrong with you guys. Get out here and eat, dammit! Whaddya mean ya don't feel good." Translation: "Quit reminding me of my own impotence!") Oh well. Will probably help me be a better parent; just hope the fish never ask for the keys to the car. :)

Thanks also for the straight advice to cull, Rick. I would have rather been asking you questions about genetics than showing up with a "hey, my fish are sick" post, but I've been lurking on here long enough to pay attention to what you're telling me. And I appreciate it when people are willing to give advice that the listener might not want to hear.

That is a hard thing for me to do, but am going to get things together to do it in a good way, for them as well as for me. I'm coming around. Will see if there's clove oil in the grocery store, for one thing.

Besides that, I'll dim the room lights--they're in a bathroom--and will keep up with daily WCs (about 75%) with water I'm aging about 12 hours (no swing, just microbubbles). Been feeding a couple of types of immune booster flakes to help reseed their digestive bacteria, along with either live or freeze-dried blackworms.

Also realizing that coming off antibiotics, which I just did myself, usually means a couple of days of minimal return of symptoms, or the kind of immune system adjustment y'all have talked about. They seem okay tonight--kind of skittish, but not too dark and not heading downhill fast. Will see what I can do with structure--definitely avoiding wood after my manzanita debacle. Will be busy this weekend but figuring that sticking with WCs and not too much else is probably for the best.

Thanks again.

[mee]

If it were me I would give the little ones a bit longer before culling. My logic is that they were the weakest, and the antibiotics effected them the most. If you have ever run a course of very strong antibiotics vs mild ones, you may have had that light head/body feeling, and almost too weak to eat/function. They are clearly riding a very thin line, but now that they are off the meds, the two little ones are either going to die very soon, or start too bounce back within several days. They look like crap at the moment, but are young enough to bounce back into shape if they make it through this. Rick is likely right and has more experience with Discus than me, but I would personally give the two little ones 4 or 5 days.

[ericNH]

Will see if there's clove oil in the grocery store, for one thing.


I once asked about the best way to euthanize a fish and the method I would choose is a pail of ice-water. From what I've heard, you just drop your discus in and it dies immediately. Seems gentle enough. Just another mthod you could use.

[Kyla]

I once asked about the best way to euthanize a fish and the method I would choose is a pail of ice-water. From what I've heard, you just drop your discus in and it dies immediately. Seems gentle enough. Just another mthod you could use.

i like this product, but it may not be available everywhere:

http://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Aqua-Sed.aspx

[Akili]

Will see if there's clove oil in the grocery storeBill Try Health food stores I get mine from there


i like this product, but it may not be available everywhere:

http://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Aqua-Sed.aspx Agua-sed is only an anaesthetic product while Clove oil is cheap and painless also acts as an anesthetic,fish do not show any signs of distress.

[Kyla]

I once asked about the best way to euthanize a fish and the method I would choose is a pail of ice-water. From what I've heard, you just drop your discus in and it dies immediately. Seems gentle enough. Just another mthod you could use.


Bill Try Health food stores I get mine from there

Agua-sed is only an anaesthetic product while Clove oil is cheap and painless also acts as an anesthetic,fish do not show any signs of distress..

aqua sed is an anesthetic but is also used for euthanasia at 4x the regular dose:

http://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Euthanasia-of-fish.aspx?pageid=474

i have used both clove oil and aqua sed. i recommend clove oil often as its easy to find and cheap, but i prefer aqua sed

[Tshethar]

Hey all.

It's been 8 days since my last post, and the mood is a bit somber. Just been siphoning the bottom and doing daily water changes of 75-80%, generally using less light in the bathroom (there isn't anything on the tank itself), and feeding fairly lightly, as everybody has seemed on the skittish side and nobody begs for food, which is live blackworms, some FDBW, and two kinds of immune boosting flakes. Haven't had much time to be with the tank, though it's probably been for the best to let things ride a bit and not keep jumping to the next intervention.

With a house guest over the weekend and a lot going on, I decided not to cull immediately but to just see if anything good might happen with the 2 stragglers with just water changes. This video from 6 days ago shows you where things were, which was pretty close to how it had been previously:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Q5Hdy6RQ8&feature=youtu.be

Everybody else looks fine, but I can't really get anything going with the 2--one is thinking about eating but really never does, while the other has returned to sulking in the back.

Unfortunately, things have gotten worse over the past several days since then. One of my largest, best eaters (Flachen SS) started darkening and hanging back, and all the fish continued to seem more skittish and likely to huddle than they had been. The smallest fish really started looking weaker, and 2-3 days ago the formerly aggressive eater (the Flachen SS) stopped eating altogether. Seeing this development, along with how very weak the smallest fish was, I decided to euthanize the one fish the night before last. Kept going with just daily water changes and also cleaned the canister and tubing well (it seemed to have gotten a lot of slime in it), basically trying to keep the system pristine. The second small fish has had more energy that his friend, but has not picked at a live worm in a long time. Meanwhile, the Flachen has continued to hang out in a very dark state most of the time--and without getting actively bullied or anything from what I've seen. (Admittedly, there is some pecking order stuff going on, but it doesn't look that bad to me. Probably need to find some structure, whether pvc parts or something I can find laying around.)

95212

Wanting to keep things from going downhill from this point, I made the decision to euthanize the second faster tonight. Given the state of the Flachen SS, I decided to do a 24 hour Prazipro bath tonight to see if it might give him a boost in case he's got flukes--his gill tissue has always seemed a little exaggerated to me, though I imagine what I'm seeing isn't really a justification. I will be away starting next Thursday for 5-6 days, which means there's no starting metro or kanamycin at this point, so it seems the only other thing I could try is a levamisole bath or a salt dip. Or I'll keep doing WCs and hope he starts to come back.

So that's the news. As always, thoughts and ideas welcome.