Am I doing enough water changes?

[RDFISHGUY]

I have a 230 gallon tank with no substrate. There are 3 AC 110 filters on the tank. 13 discus are in the tank ranging in size from 2.5 -4.5 inches. I usually feed Cobalt flakes and Tetra Color bits in the am and FDBW in the pm. I have been doing 25-30% water changes every other day. Is this sufficient? I see most people are doing much larger water changes but they have much smaller tanks and usually bigger bioloads due to stocking more fish. I understand the "more is better", theory but is it really necessary in such a large tank? I appreciate any comments.

[Dis82]

I would still up the water changes and you will probably see some good growth from your discus. Why not do 50% every other day?

[Phillydubs]

I would agree that more is better...

That being said, I often read and have heard that it can be quite difficult to grow discus to their max in such a large tank...

Is there a reason why you are keeping such a small amount of fish in such a large tank?

Are you opposed to buying say a 75 gallon or something and actually growing the discus out then once they are adults moving them to the large set up?

[MD.David]

Your 30% should be OK, but more is always better as suggested. With a pretty large tank, you could potentially have 20 plus full grown discus in that tank (assuming your filtration can handle the BIO load). However, you have 13 young and older juvis, I think you would be OK, but again as its stated more water changes would be better then not.
IMO, HOB filters are good for particle removal from the water, and minimal nitrification bacteria growth at best.
I am a big sponge filter advocate!... I would suggest putting in 2-3 ATI Hydro sponge #5 or 2-3 XY380 (Chinese sponge filter) and only running 1 AC110.... I know everyone has their opinions, but I see alot of the HOB as just a food trapped breeding ground for pathogens and a whole host of parasites... But like I said, everyone has what they prefer for different reasons.

[RDFISHGUY]

Your 30% should be OK, but more is always better as suggested. With a pretty large tank, you could potentially have 20 plus full grown discus in that tank (assuming your filtration can handle the BIO load). However, you have 13 young and older juvis, I think you would be OK, but again as its stated more water changes would be better then not.
IMO, HOB filters are good for particle removal from the water, and minimal nitrification bacteria growth at best.
I am a big sponge filter advocate!... I would suggest putting in 2-3 ATI Hydro sponge #5 or 2-3 XY380 (Chinese sponge filter) and only running 1 AC110.... I know everyone has their opinions, but I see alot of the HOB as just a food trapped breeding ground for pathogens and a whole host of parasites... But like I said, everyone has what they prefer for different reasons.

I was thinking the same thing other day. I already have 4 airstones in the tank so I might as well put them to use. 4 Hydro sponge filters were ordered last Friday.


I would still up the water changes and you will probably see some good growth from your discus. Why not do 50% every other day?

I thought 50 % would be a lot more costly at such a large volume and since my stocklist is low and water parameters are good why do more than necessary. I also have 2 X 280 gallon tanks which are set up on auto drip system so I am trying to keep this one lower cost and lower maintenance.


I would agree that more is better...

That being said, I often read and have heard that it can be quite difficult to grow discus to their max in such a large tank...

Is there a reason why you are keeping such a small amount of fish in such a large tank?

Are you opposed to buying say a 75 gallon or something and actually growing the discus out then once they are adults moving them to the large set up?

The reason is less bioload less maintenance. I would set up a 75 gallon if there was room to set one up. I already have 2 x 280 gallon tanks and 1 x 230 gallon tank so I think if I was to bring home another tank my wife would lose her mind.

[Second Hand Pat]

One way to answer this question is what is the growth rate on your smaller juvies? Remember you get the most growth in the first six months of age so a decent target would be four or more inches at six months.
Pat

[RDFISHGUY]

One way to answer this question is what is the growth rate on your smaller juvies? Remember you get the most growth in the first six months of age so a decent target would be four or more inches at six months.
Pat

I just got into discus so all these fish are new. I guess time will tell.

[RDFISHGUY]

I got the new sponge filters. I couldn't get the ATI #5's so I got the Deep Blue hydromaxx 50's.

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5809/c222053/p16854072.html

They pretty much suck. They won't stay at the bottom of the tank. Any ideas how to keep them down?

[Second Hand Pat]

Squeeze the air out of them.
Pat

[RDFISHGUY]

I had all 4 at the bottom but then 3 floated up. I squeezed the air out again and they went back down. Maybe too much air? I turned down the pump hopefully that'll work.

[SNap0283]

This is going to anger a lot of people but if you could do 50% every 3rd day or 75% every 4th day you would be better off. With such a low bio load itll take 3-4 days to get toxins to any level that you would need to remove. If they get to lets say 40ppm and then you do 75% WC and bring them down to 10, that is better than having them always hover around 20-30 doing your current WC. I don't have any evidence to back this up but rather point to the many drip system attempts that may change 150% water daily yet discus have slower growth than doing daily 75% changes all at once. The large influx of fresh water seems to stimulate growth and with such a low bio load you can go a few days between changes. Just my 2 cents.

[Dis82]

Snap has a good point. Maybe wait another day and do a larger change. When I had discus the more work i put in the better the discus were

[Cosmo]

you never mention your water parameters - Ph, Ammonia, Nitrites, NItrates ?? Do you measure them? Regardless of the tank size and bio-load your filters should be able to keep these all (other than PH) near zero. If you Ph remains stable between water changes and your other parameters are near zero then your water changes are "sufficient". If your Ph fluctuates then every other day is not sufficient, but, you'll need to track down why this is happening. TDS (total disolved solids) is another impoortant factor, and will increase every day you do not do a water change - Discus prefer water with a low TDS. So,the optimal water change schedule would be daily to keep the water as clear and fresh as possibl. I have a 180gal and I do 50/60% water changes daily - if I miss a day I can see the difference in the behavior of the fish. I'd suggest you up your water changes to daily if 30% is the best you can do, otherwise increase the every other day to 45 % every other day. Don't go crazy and increase both the frequency and the volume of your water change all at once until you know your water's chemistry or big swings in Ph or a number of other factors may negatively impact your fish.

[Akili]

I got the new sponge filters. I couldn't get the ATI #5's so I got the Deep Blue hydromaxx 50's.

http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5809/c222053/p16854072.html

They pretty much suck. They won't stay at the bottom of the tank. Any ideas how to keep them down?I use these one and they work like a charm and are reasonably priced http://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=28309_28295&products_id=2263

[Phillydubs]

+1 Akili.. I use they hydro's all the time via amazon and they are cheap and work amazing... I always keep a handful on stock and swap them out as needed as it is a secondary filter for me... Give them a good squeeze once a week or so and you can't go wrong...

Also, small word of advice... as you squeeze them, break down the stand at they can do a nice job of harboring a lot of crap in there... I made this mistake early and once I cracked that opened I was pretty mad at myself for being dumb enough to miss that... Here I am trying to take good care and I am letting this sludge build... So just my experience and a tip for you and any others using sponges...

[RDFISHGUY]

+1 Akili.. I use they hydro's all the time via amazon and they are cheap and work amazing... I always keep a handful on stock and swap them out as needed as it is a secondary filter for me... Give them a good squeeze once a week or so and you can't go wrong...

Also, small word of advice... as you squeeze them, break down the stand at they can do a nice job of harboring a lot of crap in there... I made this mistake early and once I cracked that opened I was pretty mad at myself for being dumb enough to miss that... Here I am trying to take good care and I am letting this sludge build... So just my experience and a tip for you and any others using sponges...

Thanks for the tip. The sponges are staying down now so all is good.


This is going to anger a lot of people but if you could do 50% every 3rd day or 75% every 4th day you would be better off. With such a low bio load itll take 3-4 days to get toxins to any level that you would need to remove. If they get to lets say 40ppm and then you do 75% WC and bring them down to 10, that is better than having them always hover around 20-30 doing your current WC. I don't have any evidence to back this up but rather point to the many drip system attempts that may change 150% water daily yet discus have slower growth than doing daily 75% changes all at once. The large influx of fresh water seems to stimulate growth and with such a low bio load you can go a few days between changes. Just my 2 cents.




you never mention your water parameters - Ph, Ammonia, Nitrites, NItrates ?? Do you measure them? Regardless of the tank size and bio-load your filters should be able to keep these all (other than PH) near zero. If you Ph remains stable between water changes and your other parameters are near zero then your water changes are "sufficient". If your Ph fluctuates then every other day is not sufficient, but, you'll need to track down why this is happening. TDS (total disolved solids) is another impoortant factor, and will increase every day you do not do a water change - Discus prefer water with a low TDS. So,the optimal water change schedule would be daily to keep the water as clear and fresh as possibl. I have a 180gal and I do 50/60% water changes daily - if I miss a day I can see the difference in the behavior of the fish. I'd suggest you up your water changes to daily if 30% is the best you can do, otherwise increase the every other day to 45 % every other day. Don't go crazy and increase both the frequency and the volume of your water change all at once until you know your water's chemistry or big swings in Ph or a number of other factors may negatively impact your fish.

My water parameters are as follows:
NO3=0
NO2=0
PH=7.5
KH=180
GH=180
My water has excellent buffering capacity so I think I will stick with the 25-30% every other day. I also add Bactripond. Its a Microbial based pond treatment that I use in my bigger tanks. I think that helps keep everything in check.

And Snap, I think I would snap if my nitrates ever hit the 40ppm.

[DJW]

My water parameters are as follows:
NO3=0
NO2=0
PH=7.5
KH=180
GH=180
My water has excellent buffering capacity so I think I will stick with the 25-30% every other day. I also add Bactripond. Its a Microbial based pond treatment that I use in my bigger tanks. I think that helps keep everything in check.

And Snap, I think I would snap if my nitrates ever hit the 40ppm.

There should be some measurable nitrates... if you are using the API test you can try shaking the hell out of bottle #2 before the test. Even bang it against the table to dislodge stuff that has settled & solidified. This might make a difference.

[RDFISHGUY]

I am just using API test strips. They change color but to a very light pink which is 0 on the test strips. Definitely less than 20 ppm. The point is the water is good so why change water just to change water? I don't get it.
I have kept fish for 36 yrs and never had to change water so much. I just want to understand why I should change it so often for discus? My arowanas and stingray don't require such a ridiculous regimen why should discus? Am I missing something? If your parameters are good then why mess around?

[Second Hand Pat]

I am just using API test strips. They change color but to a very light pink which is 0 on the test strips. Definitely less than 20 ppm. The point is the water is good so why change water just to change water? I don't get it.
I have kept fish for 36 yrs and never had to change water so much. I just want to understand why I should change it so often for discus? My arowanas and stingray don't require such a ridiculous regimen why should discus? Am I missing something? If your parameters are good then why mess around?

I would suggest you give this a read to better understand http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important.
Pat

[DJW]

I am just using API test strips. They change color but to a very light pink which is 0 on the test strips. Definitely less than 20 ppm. The point is the water is good so why change water just to change water? I don't get it.
I have kept fish for 36 yrs and never had to change water so much. I just want to understand why I should change it so often for discus? My arowanas and stingray don't require such a ridiculous regimen why should discus? Am I missing something? If your parameters are good then why mess around?

And here is a video that gives an overall answer. Look at 13:30 to 17:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8

And some more reading:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117514-what-is-the-point-of-water-changes

[RDFISHGUY]

I would suggest you give this a read to better understand http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important.
Pat

In a normal, healthy tank, The denitrification process deals with uneaten food and fish waste. Are discus sensitive to these bacteria? Because it would seem to me that that the biomass or the bioload are dealt with during the denitrification cycle. If you have enough good bacteria they should keep the bad bacteria at bay. Only if you severely overfeed your fish, or you never do water changes, this would this become a problem.
Or is it the waste that is produced by the denitrifying bacteria that is causing the problem? To me it seems like not enough filtration, and because of this not enough good bacteria. And overstocking.
I have heard of the terms bio-mass and bioload before. Usually in the context that your filtration has to match your bioload. I always over filter. An ac 110 is enough to filter 100 gallons so if I use 3 of them I should be able to filter a properly stocked 300 gallon tank. Since my tank is only 230 gallons my tank is over filtered. As long as the filters are maintained and the water changes are done as I currently do 25-30% every second day I should never have a bioload issue.

[DJW]

In a normal, healthy tank, The denitrification process deals with uneaten food and fish waste. Are discus sensitive to these bacteria? Because it would seem to me that that the biomass or the bioload are dealt with during the denitrification cycle. If you have enough good bacteria they should keep the bad bacteria at bay. Only if you severely overfeed your fish, or you never do water changes, this would this become a problem.
Or is it the waste that is produced by the denitrifying bacteria that is causing the problem? To me it seems like not enough filtration, and because of this not enough good bacteria. And overstocking.
I have heard of the terms bio-mass and bioload before. Usually in the context that your filtration has to match your bioload. I always over filter. An ac 110 is enough to filter 100 gallons so if I use 3 of them I should be able to filter a properly stocked 300 gallon tank. Since my tank is only 230 gallons my tank is over filtered. As long as the filters are maintained and the water changes are done as I currently do 25-30% every second day I should never have a bioload issue.

I would like to go through several assumptions you are making here.

First, the process that takes place in the filter in the presence of oxygen where ammonia is converted to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate is referred to as nitrification. DE-nitrification is a different, anearobic (without oxygen) process. I know what you mean but to avoid confusion its best to have the terms correct.

Second, the bacteria that work on uneaten food and other decomposing crud in the tank are not beneficial bacteria, they are not the same bacteria we want to cultivate in the filter, and while they are not normally pathogenic, they do harm to Discus by loading the immune system with unnecessary work, causing stress. The end result of the action of these bacteria is some ammonia which then undergoes nitrification by filter bacteria. Another end result is dissolved organic carbon, which is also not healthy.

Third... good bacteria don't keep bad bacteria at bay. They have separate food sources and lead separate lives in the tank.

Fourth... filtration does not remove harmful bacteria; siphoning of waste and water changes do that.

Fifth... More and more filtration does not mean cleaner and cleaner water. This is like a shop owner thinking that if he gets a bigger cash register his business will pick up. The population of beneficial bacteria grows to meet the size of its food source, it doesn't keep growing larger just because it has more filter space.

It very well might be that 30% every two days is sufficient given a low stocking level and a good maintenance routine and careful feeding, especially if you have adult fish, but in thinking about this it helps to understand how the various kinds of bacteria are working for or against you.

[Jack L]

I would agree that more is better...

"That being said, I often read and have heard that it can be quite difficult to grow discus to their max in such a large tank..."


not saying your wrong, but i've always understood the opposite to be true?????

[RDFISHGUY]

I would like to go through several assumptions you are making here.

First, the process that takes place in the filter in the presence of oxygen where ammonia is converted to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate is referred to as nitrification. DE-nitrification is a different, anearobic (without oxygen) process. I know what you mean but to avoid confusion its best to have the terms correct.

Second, the bacteria that work on uneaten food and other decomposing crud in the tank are not beneficial bacteria, they are not the same bacteria we want to cultivate in the filter, and while they are not normally pathogenic, they do harm to Discus by loading the immune system with unnecessary work, causing stress. The end result of the action of these bacteria is some ammonia which then undergoes nitrification by filter bacteria. Another end result is dissolved organic carbon, which is also not healthy.

Third... good bacteria don't keep bad bacteria at bay. They have separate food sources and lead separate lives in the tank.

Fourth... filtration does not remove harmful bacteria; siphoning of waste and water changes do that.

Fifth... More and more filtration does not mean cleaner and cleaner water. This is like a shop owner thinking that if he gets a bigger cash register his business will pick up. The population of beneficial bacteria grows to meet the size of its food source, it doesn't keep growing larger just because it has more filter space.

It very well might be that 30% every two days is sufficient given a low stocking level and a good maintenance routine and careful feeding, especially if you have adult fish, but in thinking about this it helps to understand how the various kinds of bacteria are working for or against you.

Thanks, I think that clears it up.

I will do more water changes, since I will be home for awhile. When I go back to work my wife will be tasked with the water changes and she will only do every second day as we have 4 boys with hockey and basketball.

[RDFISHGUY]

And here is a video that gives an overall answer. Look at 13:30 to 17:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8

And some more reading:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117514-what-is-the-point-of-water-changes

I missed this post the first time. Great links. Now I get it. Discus are more sensitive due to their acid water origins. This makes total sense now. Its probably why my wild caughts came in such poor condition. I hope to turn them around. This info will help immensely. Thanks everyone!

[Phillydubs]

Jack L - You have heard that growing discus out in big large tanks is best?

It has always been to my understanding that people prefer to keep a growout group in a smaller tank for the simple reason that water changes are less, easier and faster. I have even seen people who have no choice but use a larger tank do so at 1/2 capicity or less...

Again, this is based on my reading and seeing people here on the forum do it... I always figured it was because it is easier to do a 100% change on a 55 or 75 than it is on a 125, 200, etc...

Also, I have heard that juvis can also feel especially small and or "lost" so to speak in such a large tank, as they prefer to school and be close when there is so much room they spread out and don't feel the comfort...

[Kyla]

like phillydubs said, u could lower the water level in the tank to reduce the volume and make larger % wc easier while the fish r growing, esp if u get the sponge filters going

[pastry]

I think you're fine as is (period)

[nofearengineer]

I have a 230 gallon tank with no substrate. There are 3 AC 110 filters on the tank. 13 discus are in the tank ranging in size from 2.5 -4.5 inches. I usually feed Cobalt flakes and Tetra Color bits in the am and FDBW in the pm. I have been doing 25-30% water changes every other day. Is this sufficient? I see most people are doing much larger water changes but they have much smaller tanks and usually bigger bioloads due to stocking more fish. I understand the "more is better", theory but is it really necessary in such a large tank? I appreciate any comments.


RD, I am a discus noob, but I do know math. If you had 13 discus in a 75 (~1/3 of 230) gallon tank, your "over time" metabolic waste levels would be exactly the same as if you changed the same percentage of water every 16 hours (1/3 of 48 hours). Use that comparison to judge from other folks' comments if you are changing water often enough.

[mee]

Jack L - You have heard that growing discus out in big large tanks is best?

It has always been to my understanding that people prefer to keep a growout group in a smaller tank for the simple reason that water changes are less, easier and faster. I have even seen people who have no choice but use a larger tank do so at 1/2 capicity or less...

Again, this is based on my reading and seeing people here on the forum do it... I always figured it was because it is easier to do a 100% change on a 55 or 75 than it is on a 125, 200, etc...

Also, I have heard that juvis can also feel especially small and or "lost" so to speak in such a large tank, as they prefer to school and be close when there is so much room they spread out and don't feel the comfort...

Just thought I would chime in with some general knowledge regarding cichlids not specific to Discus, but I suspect it holds true. The big tank grow out pro theory in my experience, is based on volume of fresh water during changes, a sorta internal mechanism that tells a fish, you have space grow big, and abundance of filtration (will touch on that below). The big grow out tank con theory is based on fish simply not being able to find food, and this can be true with some fish, but feeding from the same spot or using feeding cone type apparatus fixes this imho. My general consensus from more than 30 years of breeding Cichlids is yes, big tanks will grow fish faster (much faster if given the right routine).

As for more filtration = better water quality... true or false. I see this come up in every forum at some point. My take is this. Naturally there will only be an amount of bacteria to correspond with the bio-load... However, and it is a big however in my book. When you have allot of filtration, ie allot of space for bacteria to colonize, although x amount of bio-load equals x amount of bacteria, the bacteria is spread out over much more media, and if the bio-load increases the colonization of more beneficial bacteria can take place much quicker, and because there is so much more media, will not reach a dead end nearly as quickly.. ie an undersized filter can only hold so much bacteria. This is not to say it will save you from poor water routines, especially with massive feedings that discus tend to get at the grow out stage, however it will be a bit more forgiving. This is especially useful to know if you plan to add more fish, but again if you dump a substantial amount of fish in without adding more colonized material, don't expect the bacteria to save you from a crash, it will simply keep things going more with gradual changes to bio-load.