Fry Bloating and dying before free swim

[DiscusBP]

I have come upon a new issue in my quest for artificially raising fry. On the second day many of the fry are beginning to bloat. By day 3 only a few are free swimming and all of those who bloated are now dead. Does anyone know what causes bloating? It looks like an air pocket formed? I cannot find any information anywhere on this. I had this happen to a batch of Angel fry and now it has happened to a new batch of discus. Any information would be great.

Thanks!

[DiscusBP]

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They start out looking like this but then slowly get a bit larger and then unfortunately die off:(

[CliffsDiscus]

How many days old?

[DiscusBP]

I'll see one or two get it and die off around the second day...on the third day the majority have bloated and eventually die. Last time it happened to about 300 angelfish fry. I thought it was a fluke but then it happened to a batch of discus. Only about 8 survived out of 150 and they are actually doing well so far. However as I am happy 8 survived I am puzzled to what happened to the rest of them?

[CliffsDiscus]

All I can see from the Picture is an empty egg sac and no yellow egg yolk formula,
Discus sometimes do puff up after dieing.

[alcastro]

It looks like a wiggler not a free swimmer

[DiscusBP]

The pic was taken on the second day after hatching so they are not free swimming or eating yet. The problem is that they are bloating on the second day and then dying on the third.

[alcastro]

I don't know how they can bloat on their egg yoke but when they die they swell up, there might me a problem with your water like bacteria that's killing them.

[DiscusBP]

I thought it may be due to the hardness of my water? I was just doing some testing and it is pretty hard. If it is some sort of bacteria what would you suggest I treat the water with?

[brewmaster15]

Nathan,
Maybe start by telling us all your water parameters and husbandry and method used for hatching. I don't think it has anything to do with your hard water as usually they just won't hatch if the waters too hard.

al

[DiscusBP]

Ph - 6.8
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5ppm
Gh & Kh - 140-200ppm
Temp. 82 f

They are hatched in a 2.5 gallon with MB. Once hatched they are moved to a shoebox that is floated in a 20 gallon tank with the same water as above. This tank gets about a 70% WC per day.

[DiscusBP]

95124

[NoMondays]

I had a similar problem with three different artificially raised broods using egg yolk mix as well as with BBS and pre-soaked GP's. similar to your set up I use a shoebox with 100% WC's in the main tank twice daily. What SEEMED to be the problem is overfeeding the fry.

However, cutting back on the feed quantity, but maintaining my schedule of feeding every 2 hours there were no further problems with successive batches of fry.

[Andy0x1]

I have come upon a new issue in my quest for artificially raising fry. On the second day many of the fry are beginning to bloat. By day 3 only a few are free swimming and all of those who bloated are now dead. Does anyone know what causes bloating? It looks like an air pocket formed? I cannot find any information anywhere on this. I had this happen to a batch of Angel fry and now it has happened to a new batch of discus. Any information would be great.

Thanks!


Did you ever figure this out?

I have a pair of discus that started laying eggs. I cycled a 50gal tank over 2 months and moved them.

First batch of eggs hatched, and only 5 made it to the parents. (Parrents would flick, and ditch the free swimmers.)

the 5 that found the parents, grew to the size of a dime, before the female decided she wanted to spawn again and ate the 5 survivors.

Next batch had white cottony growth (fungus?) on the eggs. 90% hatched but none made it to free swim.

Next batch had the same problem.

Next batch I added Methanol Blue to the eggs, and removed it through 80% daily WC's this batch did not have any problems with cottony growth, however all of the fry bloated and died.

0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 10 Nitrate, 60ppm TDS, 7.6pH (Seachem NutriDiet Discus Flakes fortified with GarlicGuard, and Probiotics.)

Water changes are aged in a 50 gal drum - temp matched - etc..

After all these failures, I changed the breeding tank from sponge filter to overflow / sump and moved the heaters, and sponge into the sump.

Added a TurboTwist 36W UV Sterilizer for the return water.

Discus laid eggs again - almost all of them hatched, 3 days after hatch they start to float free from the cone and appear bloated and dead.

I removed a couple and put them under a microscope, to my surprise the heart was still beating on the fry that were more or less dead. (couldn't find any parasites)

The fry that did NOT have a heartbeat had protozoa all over on it feeding. (I assume this is a normal process to break down the dead fry.)

Water is crystal clear - glass is clean.

I'm baffled. It is very frustrating watching spawn after spawn of wigglers slowly bloat and eventually drift off the cone motionless.

Weak genetics? Something in the food? Bacteria / fungal / parasite - totally frustrated.

I made some homemade food and may try that next. Male loves it, female is more interested in staring at the eggs.

[Andy0x1]

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[Andy0x1]

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Under a microscope.

[Andy0x1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp_aol35re4 The 5 Discus Fry from first batch a day before mom ate them. Sorry for the portrait video - wasn't expecting to use it for anything.

https://youtu.be/bea3SioQYB4 Fry under microscope.

https://youtu.be/Jgtvk_1TM80 From filter / white cottony fungus? Parasite? (Chilodonella?)

I dosed the aquarium with Malachite green, a bit of salt, and I'm raising temp from 84 to 90

Will maintain that for a couple weeks and check the filter bed again there-after.

[Andy0x1]

Discus laid again, fry malformed and die off again. very frustrating.

[ssevasta]

You might want to pm brewmaster15 and get his thoughts on this. Maybe the parents have bad genetics or one of them is producing bad sperm or eggs.

[Belkar]

What is your GH? Almost all my fry got short gill lids and/or deormed fins. I have GH 0-1 and have bought me some discus minerals now to buffer up my water before trying to breed them again. I read that lack of minerals also could lead to fry deformaties and death. So perhaps worth looking into?

[Belkar]

Never mind. Saw you had listed gh in a previous post. Much higher than mine. Guessing that`s not the problem then.

[bluelagoon]

I had this problem with large water changes on fry of just hatched angel fish in the past.70% WC especially from the tap can kill fry.In my case it did at 40% and was dechlorinated in a bucket first.Maybe try smaller WC's for their first few weeks.I think it is due to a big WC.

[Andy0x1]

I agree, and did nothing more than remove waste from the tank, with no water changes at all, same problem.

I would suspect week genetics, but one batch had all of the fry make it to free swim, only 5 found parrents from that batch though, and mom eventually ate the ones that were growing well.

There are only two events that come to mind as possibly related.

#1 I replaced my 3M whole house filter AP903 (Sedement, and Chlorine)

Cant imagine this would be a problem

#2 I handled "Mosquito bits" a biological product to prevent mosquito larve from forming.

I specifically washed my hands with dawn dish soap after handling, and avoided the tanks. I really do not think this would be related, esp since there is no microscopic evidence in my post incident reviews.

Low minerals makes the most sense since the whole house filter was replaced. I have some plant fertilizers including CSM+B I could try adding but perhaps I will simply try putting the house filter into filter bypass, and make a large water change. The fish laid again last night so I will do this tonight.

[Andy0x1]

Tried refortified RO water, started a new tank, cycled, same problem, over and over. No idea what the problem is.

[brewmaster15]

I have seen this before on a pair of new fish I got , and attributed it to bacteria. Others here have reported similar over the years. My best guess was it was a bacteria that the parents carry on them.I was able to dip the eggs
in methlyene blue and artificially hatch the eggs fine and they developed fine..but if left with the parents the turned into balloons on the cone like yours. Since I could hatch the eggs artificially and it was only this pair I was pretty sure.it was bacterial. I ended up doing a salt dip to a new tank and treated 10 days with furan 2. I did not have further problems.

There may be multiple causes for this but that was apparantly one.

hth,
Al