Hello, and general Q's

[static]

Hi all i would just joined your forum so I will start with a bit about myself,

I have been fish keeping for around 53 years and in that time I have had had some nice community tanks and had a bit of experience with breeding, co2, planted tanks and the associated problems along the way. I currently have a community tetra tank, which I am getting ready to change to a sump system and then would like to have discus of different types I have done a lot of research and I can get local bred fish that are acclimatized to the local water conditions. I also have a turtle tank with 2 long neck turtles which I have had for a couple of years and are doing well. One of my newest additions is a colony of around 5 Lamprologus brevis and 20 Neolamprologus multifasciatus. I am hoping they will breed with time as the have the person I bought them off of said they are very good breeders when conditions are right. My newest addition however is a breeding rack that I would like to use to breed Discus, freshwater shrimp and maybe peppermint bristlenose if I can get the water to suit them.

In the rack there are 5 tanks in total 4x 30x16x14 and 1x 60x16x14 which are all connected to a central sump with a 150000l per hour pump (I know its a massive pump but it is what came with it and it has valves to slow it down and a recirculating pipe as well). It is all made with 1.5" pipe for the pumping side and 1" pipe for the drain which should apparently handle about 2000l per hour or so I am told.
They are bare bottom tanks with some plants and I will be getting moss for the shrimp and more plants for the discus, no ornaments just breeding accessories.
I am unsure how many water changes will be required a week as the sump system is very efficient so any advise would be appreciated. I want to have 1 maybe 2 pairs of discus in the 5ft tank separated with a divider for breeding and then the other tanks with different shrimp (looking at blue velvet, crs ss grade, sunkist orange and maybe yellow or green shrimp).
The sump has a 300w heater which I am checking to make sure it can keep temp which I have read needs to be around 28c to 30c for breeding discus but may be to high for the shrimp I would like to keep any corrections or info here would be appreciated.
The tank is currently fishless cycling so should be ready in about a month maybe 2. Basic parameters are -
- temp 26 (will increase after cycling)

- tank ph 7.6 (lowered with drift wood)

- Ph of the water straight out of your tap 8

- ammonia reading .5

- nitrite reading .25

- nitrate reading not sure yet

Any help with feeding ideas for everything will be appreciated I am thinking automatic feeders to help as I work during the day and cannot do 4 - 6 feeds a day.

Goals would be successful breeding of Super Red Melons and probably some type of leopard blue if compatible to the same water conditions and shrimp if I can.

Any help or advise on any of the things I have mentioned would be appreciated any problems you can see with the setups as well and any general tips are welcome. I will add more photos as I can.

Thanks for reading my long post,
Regards Mike.

9500495005

[Filip]

Hi static and welcome to discus.
Having all the tanks connected IMO is not good idea.
First it brings risk of introducing pathogens to discus with any introduced shrimp, fish or plant in any of the tanks,
And second its not practical for changing water for your discus since you have to change 1000 gallons water on every WC .And the one thing that truly separates the succesfull discus keeping from all other freshwater species is their need of frequent water changes for constant clean and fresh water, regardless of the filtration you have.
IMO you would be better off with 2-3 separate 20 gallon tanks if you are about to breed and raise youngs.
Good luck in your journey with this beautiful fish .

[static]

Thank you for the reply.
I understand the problems with disease but if I have a quarantine tank for new fish/plants would it not eliminate the risk?

I think I may have made my first post a bit confusing so I will attempt to clarify it.

I have read you need to do 100% water changes but I do not believe it would be necessary? I am under the belief that water changes are required to help remove toxic elements from the tanks. If I have 4 - 8 discus in 1000l the waste they produce would be minimal and the sump filtration would handle any rise in toxins with a partial water change and tank clean every week? Or am I incorrect.

Would I also be correct in saying that warmer temps 30degrees c would help the discus breed and prevent most diseases?

[Filip]

Thank you for the reply.
I understand the problems with disease but if I have a quarantine tank for new fish/plants would it not eliminate the risk?

I think I may have made my first post a bit confusing so I will attempt to clarify it.

I have read you need to do 100% water changes but I do not believe it would be necessary? I am under the belief that water changes are required to help remove toxic elements from the tanks. If I have 4 - 8 discus in 1000l the waste they produce would be minimal and the sump filtration would handle any rise in toxins with a partial water change and tank clean every week? Or am I incorrect.

Would I also be correct in saying that warmer temps 30degrees c would help the discus breed and prevent most diseases?

1 . If you follow the strict min 6 weeks QT procedure with a 2 week test discus you will greatly reduce the chances of cross- contamination, but you can never eliminate them 100 % , there will always be a certain risk.
Doing 6 weeks QT for every single fish or shrimp you buy for +10 tanks and bleaching all plants is a real limitation to other tanks IMO.

2.Discus are especially sensitive amongst other things to nitratest and to a bacterial load in the water.Good sump filtration cant take care for neither of them, that's why we change water .
But you are right , more water they have more dilution to bacteria and nitrates , so yes maybe it can postpone your WCs for a certain period.But how much and how often should you WC, you'll never know for sure.

That's why small I.e. 20 g tanks with daily 100 % WCs are recommendable as a proven success, you can elliminate the dillema on how much and how often should you do WCs and you optimise / maximize their growth conditions.

3 . High temperature are only recommendable when dealing with parasite issues to speed up a life cycle of a certain parasite while medicateing and thus kill it faster.
You can also use them for a short periods 2-3 weeks to boost up fish appetite , during hunger strikes .

Otherwise they are counter productive because they contribute to speed up the bacterial buildup proces and make water foul at much quicker rate.
Hope that helps a bit Static.

[static]

Thank you for the advise I will monitor the nitrates and water change as required if I test every day using an API kit is that ok? For best breeding around 27-28 degrees C is enough?
What do you think of peat moss I have read it helps water conditions and also helps to lower ph as my tap water is around 8 - 8.4 as long as you replace it every 30 days.

Cheers

[briztoon]

G'day Static,

Don't underestimate how much waste discus can produce in 24 hours. As they live in higher temperature water, they have a higher metabolism and eat more than similar sized cichlids. They also eat a high protein diet.

Many discus keepers use filter socks in their sumps which they replace daily to catch the waste and remove it from the system.

As Filip mentioned, it's not just nitrates we remove with daily water changes, it's bacteria. Discus seem to be much more sensitive to bacterial loads than other fish. Large water changes with clean water dilute the bacterial load.

The best way to lower pH is by diluting your water with neutral water, either RO water of filtered rain water.

[Akili]

Thank you for the advise I will monitor the nitrates and water change as required if I test every day using an API kit is that ok? For best breeding around 27-28 degrees C is enough?
What do you think of peat moss I have read it helps water conditions and also helps to lower ph as my tap water is around 8 - 8.4 as long as you replace it every 30 days.

CheersOne time honored way of softening water. Peat is great for softening water and pH lowering ability. It gradually lowers the hardness and adds humic acid that Discus in the wild are used to. It slightly discolors the water. As Peat decomposes it need to be replaced from time to time.

[Filip]

Thank you for the advise I will monitor the nitrates and water change as required if I test every day using an API kit is that ok? For best breeding around 27-28 degrees C is enough?
What do you think of peat moss I have read it helps water conditions and also helps to lower ph as my tap water is around 8 - 8.4 as long as you replace it every 30 days.

Cheers

1. You can monitor nitrates (more or less accurate) but you can't monitor number of bacteria in water column and on discus slime coat. So even with constant low nitrates people who seldom do WCs can experience sick or not eating discus fish.

2. Constant 28C temp. Is considered optimal for discus.

3. Peat in discus tank is useless IMO because it dilutes slowly and gradually and its not compatible with big daily or weekly WCs that discus require.You reset parameters constantly with every WC.
You will need an RO unit if your about to soften water and breed discus.

[Jack L]

Thank you for the advise I will monitor the nitrates and water change as required if I test every day using an API kit is that ok? For best breeding around 27-28 degrees C is enough?
What do you think of peat moss I have read it helps water conditions and also helps to lower ph as my tap water is around 8 - 8.4 as long as you replace it every 30 days.

Cheers

API drops are fine, but hard to read. you need to read them in the same light and background each time. i actually prefer the strips for a quicker check, and they seem to be in line with the drops kits.

an auto feeder will solve you feeding frequency issue. there as several threads on board about what people like if search.

[static]

Thank you all for the tips and advise.
I will look into ro units if I have access to rain water will it be the same as ro water?

[Filip]

Thank you all for the tips and advise.
I will look into ro units if I have access to rain water will it be the same as ro water?

Rainwater is avoided this days , as it can contain contaminants , polutants , bacteria during storing etc.

[John_Nicholson]

Long story short....if you want your discus to do well you will change water. Most successful folks change somewhere between 25% and 50% a day depending on the number of fish, age, type of food, etc.... Your water is made up of hundreds of compounds. Your test kit is testing a handful...in other words is is useless in the real world. Throw it way and change water and you will have success. It is as simple as that.

-john

[Jack L]

John is right, this advice was good 10 years ago and 20 years ago too.

However, If you want to do tons of water tests keep track of it all to help understand what is going on, there is fair value in that. Better to take the input of others and see how it meshes with your situation.

Even if you did a full wc every hour it still isn't a natural situation. So use you experience and data to find what works keeping in mind you really can't ever do as much WC as happens in real water.

IMHO I don't think discus are harder than other fish, they just cost a lot more. I actually think some other fish are harder, they just die without showing any signs but discus do give warnings.

Spend some time reading over this board, you will see a consistent theme emerge.

[static]

Thank you
I am seeing it already and I am very glad I asked here first before I started with any fish.
I will start with a 25% - 50% water change every day and hopefully it will be enough if not I will bump up the changes .

A question about to water.
If I use it how do I adjust my ph or will the ro filter change the ph to around 7?

Also for successful breeders do you let the fish look after the fry or do it yourself I have read and watched a few videos and it seem if you do it yourself the success rate is higher but it is more work would I be correct?
And do you use any plants in the breeding tanks for the discus to hide it seem most breeders just have empty tanks with the spawning cone does this way stress the fish too much for a beginner?

[Jack L]

You would want to add something back to the ro to give it some buffering

[Jack L]

There are various products and diy ways for adding back. I just use tap water to add back minerals