Hello Hello From OH-IO!

[jack]

Hi DISCUS PEOPLEEE,

My name is Jack, I'm 23 and obviously from Ohio, Mason to be exact.

I'm just starting out with this whole new Discus hobby!
I've kept a bunch of other tropical fish for quite a while before but never Discus because I was a broke college student.
BUT now I have a job and am making some money, I can finally dabble in the art of discus :P

I actually just bought 10 stendker fry (fire reds- not here yet) from a breeder so they should be pretty cool. xD and made a beef heart mix for food.
So overall I have been reading a lot on how to keep discus from you guys and everywhere else, so I have a pretty good grasp, but any help/recommendations would be appreciated as I go along and get trapped deeper and deeper in this hobby, or more broke, whichever comes first haha...

Oh and I'm also starting into planted tanks and playing around with co2 tanks and building my own regulator and so forth. Kinda just blew out my burkert 6011 solenoid today so I'm wondering how exactly they are supposed to be wired and so forth. I did buy two because I thought my brother-in-law wanted one, so I can try again xD

Well, this was a very long introduction and I guess a summary of what I'm currently working on.

Hope you guys enjoyed a newbie starting out and am looking forward to learning more from you guys!



Best Regards,

Jack

p.s. - this was way too formal ...

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jack and welcome the Simply :D. My first recommendation is to do more research. Al, the forum owner did a talk on discus keeping at this years ACA show and it was video taped. It is well worth the hour.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8

Also check out this guide http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus and the stickies in the beginner section.

I suggest you focus on raising juvies since that is what you intend to do. Please do not raise them in a planted tank. The needs of a planted tank and raising juvies are totally opposite. Raising juvies is not hard but is a labor of love. They do best in a bare bottom tank with large daily water changes and several feeding a day. Discus are not like other aquarium fish but they are well worth the effect.

Keeping discus and planted tanks are two separate skill sets which are best learned separately and later merged together once a person is knowledgeable and comfortable with both. Enjoy the journey and we are here to help. :D
Pat

[Keith Perkins]

Welcome to the forum. Can't tell you crap about solenoids unfortunately, but someone here can likely help.

[Woodyg]

Hello there Jack. Grove City Ohio here.

[jack]

-Haha thanks pat, I did watch that video twice before xD I follow joey quite a bit. and I read the guide from paul also :D So I've done quite a bit of research already, but will continue to do so :D
But yeah, the planted tank is separate from the discus haha. Just separate projects I'm working on and thought I'd throw it out there to see if I could get any help.
I think I'm gonna to record this process for my own learning experience and maybe for others.

-Thanks Keith! and no problem :D

-Hey Gary! That's only about an hour away :D Maybe, if you wanted to, could show me the ropes or check out your set up haha :D I'm open to anything.

And thanks for the welcome guys! Glad to be here.

[Akili]

Hi and welcome to SimplyDiscus Jack.

[zchauvin]

Welcome to SD, there is a wealth of knowledge here. I'm sure it was already stated, but with the juvies it's two simple things that decide wether or not your fish end up nice and round or the opposite. Food and water changes. I've been gone a while and only pop my head in once and a while but if memory serves, feed BH 4-6 times a day and other high nutrient foods. Just feed often and couple with 60+% water changes daily. Barebottom is the way to go. Make sure to aerate and dechlorinate your tap water as well as heat the day before you do water change.

As for your planted tank, I have always much preferred the ADA line of soils and fertilizers. Co2 should start around 2-3 bps and your going to need to start dosing shortly after your tank is setup. If nothing else, I would highly suggest ADA aquasoil over any other because of its ph effects, and it will release nutrients including ammonia into your water column for the first few weeks helping to jump start plant growth as well as your nitrogen cycle.

[mee]

Ohio gosai Masu, yoroshku !

[jack]

Okay so I have a question,

I've seen a lot of people doing a lot of different methods for WCs for juvi's
Some say 50-100%, some say 100-200%
What would be the preferred method?
Because changing less than 100% means that they will have some of their original quality water to be in.
While more than 100% means that basically they are swimming in a new tank of water.
I do have a 32 gallon water storage container which I will be aging water (w/ airstone and heater). Basically using it and filling it up everyday.
Suggestions?


Also, the use of Methylene blue (treat fungal infections) and Potassium Permanganate (to remove parasites)
Is that necessary? or safe to have some on hand? and if so, in what forms? and maybe links to what people have used?

Thanks :D

[Dudley Eirich]

Hi Jack. I'm in the Eastgate area of Cinci, so if you have a question or two, I would be happy to help. I'm no expert like some here, but I have successfully raised a number of discus fry to adulthood and have experienced many of the challenges and diseases associated with growing out discus. I've never used Methylene blue (although I have some on hand) nor potassium permanganate (although many people on SD do use it). I do have praziquantel, metronidazole, tetracycline, and epsom salts on hand as well. I also have some formaldehyde but have never used it. For growing out my discus, I do 80% water changes daily. I use a 50 gallon container and mix a predetermined ratio of hot and cold water to give the right temperature immediately prior to adding to the aquarium. I add Safe right before addition to the tank as well. I find that I don't need to age my water. I have Clermont county water, but I wouldn't think that the water from Mason would be much different. You might investigate that. The advantage to not having to age water is that you can change water more than once a day if necessary or if some emergency situation arises and you need to change water quickly (say something falls into the aquarium). Anyway, welcome to SD and to the fascinating hobby of discus keeping. By the way, I also have fire reds that I purchased from Don in Virginia as 50 cent sized fry. They are now about 6+ inches and are beautiful. You will love them I'm sure. One more thing, I agree with Pat...please don't grow out your discus in a planted tank. You'll have nothing but regrets. All the best!

[jack]

hey dudly,
so have you had to use any of your meds/chemicals? or not really

ALSO,

I tested my water and here are the findings
Straight tap
ph - 8-8.2 (API), calibrated ph meter to (8.2)
ammonia - 0-0.25ppm
nitrite - 0ppm
nitrate - 0ppm
hardness - 147ppm
temperature - 57degreesC

After aerating it for 24 hrs and heating it to 82degreesC
ph - 7.4-7.8(API), 7.5(phmeter)
hardness - 220ppm

So with the aeration and heating of tap,
there was an increase of 73ppm of hardness to 220ppm. and a decrease of .7ph to 7.5.
This is interesting because why did the hardness go up? normally hardness and ph are directly proportional??

Also, would you guys recommend peat moss to soften water and lower ph? If I were to use a fixed amount in nylon socks and was put in the water storage bin? I know the ph and hardness of the day aged water is plenty good for keeping the discus that I will have. But I've read a lot that having optimal conditions will make their discus "feel a lot happier." I did get some 100% peat moss and will do some tests also, but I want to hear what you guys have to say about it.

So to be optimal, I would have to let it age at least a day I believe.

I'm going to do more tests in regards to using not straight cold water but a mixture of hot and cold, which will save a bit on the electricity bill but will be harder to control?? (I don't have fine adjustment knobs for the faucet.) Maybe by how many turns of the knob?

[Dudley Eirich]

Jack, I'm not sure why your hardness is going up as the pH goes down. I don't measure hardness but total dissolved solids using a meter. My TDS is about 240 ppm. I would recommend using the TDS meter rather than a hardness test kit, which can be a bit tricky to use at times, especially if you have very hard water. They also come with a built-in thermometer so you have another method for determining temperature that is reasonably quick and accurate. The pH of my water (using a pH meter) is 8.2 from the tap and 8.1 to 8.2 in the tank. It looks like you may need to age your water, however it would be worth double-checking your pH again before and after aging. I would not bother trying to modify your pH. It is better to have a stable pH value, so just use the water as is. Growing discus do well in hard water and hard water typically comes with a high pH value. I don't try to get the right temperature by adjusting the hot and cold taps. As you wrote, the control is not very fine or accurate. I have marks on a 50 gallon reservoir. I fill cold water up to the first mark and then fill to the top with hot water using a drinking-water safe hose. You can purchase an adapter from a hardware store that will screw into your sink faucet and attach to the hose end. I determined the ratio of hot to cold in the reservoir by experimentation. The temperature can vary a few degrees without stressing the discus, so it isn't critical to try to match the tank temperature exactly.

[GivensOU]

Hello there Jack. Grove City Ohio here.

Hey Woodyg,

I am also from as well, I live by the ASK Motorsports dealer.

[jack]

Dudley,

I am using a TDS meter. So I experimented a bit more and for some reason, temperature has an effect on the hardness. So I shut off my heater and the temp dropped down to around 60*C and the hardness went to 169 from 220. Haven't had time to experiment with peat yet so I won't use it until I know more about it.

I do already have a hose and adapter which goes into my faucet. And that method that you use is a great idea haha. Why didn't I think of that? Do you know about what percent hot and cold water you use in relation to your bin? So I don't have to experiment as much :D

oh and "woodyg and GivensOSU" I'm most likely gonna be going back up to columbus fall of 2017 for dental school at OSU. and I do visit OSU once in a while so if you guys want to meet up and chill that'd be cool :D

I really want to see someone's set up haha :p

[Dudley Eirich]

The ratio that I use is somewhere between 60:40 and 70:30 cold:hot. A lot will depend on how hot the water is. I don't know the chemical principal behind hardness test kits, but I suspect that the kit itself may be sensitive to temperature. Send me a PM if you would like to see my fish room. It is pretty crude, but works for me.

[DJW]

Jack,

It looks like you are measuring TDS and finding that it changes with temperature. This is normal for a TDS meter that doesn't have temperature compensation. For example the TDS-EZ made by HM Digital will show a much lower TDS in cold water, while the TDS-3 made also by HM Digital will not vary with temperature as it has built in compensation.

Hardness and TDS are not really synonymous. General Hardness (GH) is a more specific measurement than TDS.

[Dudley Eirich]

Jack,

It looks like you are measuring TDS and finding that it changes with temperature. This is normal for a TDS meter that doesn't have temperature compensation. For example the TDS-EZ made by HM Digital will show a much lower TDS in cold water, while the TDS-3 made also by HM Digital will not vary with temperature as it has built in compensation.

Hardness and TDS are not really synonymous. General Hardness (GH) is a more specific measurement than TDS.

Dan, I misunderstood Jack with regard to hardness and assumed that he was using a hardness test kit. I agree that hardness and TDS are very different measurements. As you wrote, TDS measurements can vary with temperature, if not compensated for. Good catch!

[Dudley Eirich]

Dudley,

I am using a TDS meter. So I experimented a bit more and for some reason, temperature has an effect on the hardness. So I shut off my heater and the temp dropped down to around 60*C and the hardness went to 169 from 220. Haven't had time to experiment with peat yet so I won't use it until I know more about it.

I do already have a hose and adapter which goes into my faucet. And that method that you use is a great idea haha. Why didn't I think of that? Do you know about what percent hot and cold water you use in relation to your bin? So I don't have to experiment as much :D

oh and "woodyg and GivensOSU" I'm most likely gonna be going back up to columbus fall of 2017 for dental school at OSU. and I do visit OSU once in a while so if you guys want to meet up and chill that'd be cool :D

I really want to see someone's set up haha :p

Jack, as you are probably aware, pH can also vary with temperature (see: http://reagecon.com/pdf/technicalpapers/Effects_of_Temperature_on_pH_v4-_TSP-01-2.pdf) , so you might want to try the following experiment in a 5 gallon bucket. Mix the appropriate ratio of hot to cold water to get close to the target temperature of water for your tank. (This will also help you to determine the ratio that you might need for a larger reservoir.) Measure pH and compare that value to the temperature of the water in your tank. I'm assuming that the aquarium temperature is already set where you want it for your fish. If they are the same or within 0.1 pH unit, you probably don't need to age your water. One caveat is that the aquarium needs to be completely cycled, since addition of ammonia to keep the cycle going will artificially raise the pH.

[Dudley Eirich]

Jack,

It looks like you are measuring TDS and finding that it changes with temperature. This is normal for a TDS meter that doesn't have temperature compensation. For example the TDS-EZ made by HM Digital will show a much lower TDS in cold water, while the TDS-3 made also by HM Digital will not vary with temperature as it has built in compensation.

Hardness and TDS are not really synonymous. General Hardness (GH) is a more specific measurement than TDS.

Jack, just to be clear, there is a very big difference between hardness (GH) and TDS. Hardness is essentially measuring the level of divalent cations (usually calcium and magnesium ions) in water. Those are the ones that interact with soap components to give the soap scum that everyone hates. TDS is a measurement of all of the ions in a water sample, both mono-and divalent. If you run water through a water softener, you will soften the water by exchanging the divalent cations for sodium or potassium ions. The amount of hardness changes dramatically but the TDS will not change significantly, since you have only substituted one chemical species for another.

[jack]

Ahh my bad guys,
didn't know that they were significantly different. Thought this because a lot of the things I read were with measurements in hardness or tds and I thought it was similar as people didn't specify. But now I understand. So normally, TDS measurements is used more often than hardness when people talk about discus liking softer water. So what exactly is the point of a TDS meter when it measures both mono- and divalent cations if it can't detect the actual water hardness? vs say a hardness test kit/strips?

The one I have is the TDS-EZ. So what exactly is the difference between TDS-EZ and TDS-3? Because the prices for the -3 are cheaper than the -ez?
So at the time when I bought it, I thought the one that was a bit more expensive would be the better one. So is the tds-3 better in this regard to temperature?

And thanks for the clarification :D
I really appreciate all the help, knowledge, and love from you guys!!

[DJW]

The word "hardness" can be confusing, so when reporting water hardness it is important to specify whether you are using units of GH (general hardness, mainly calcium and magnesium) or TDS, which is conductivity converted to parts per million of a salt. In freshwater the two measurements usually track each other, except when you have a water softener. Water softeners lower the GH while keeping the TDS about the same. "Softened" water is better for plumbing and soap, but if you are a fish it is still hard water.

Most aquarists use TDS meters as an indicator of how soft the water is because they are fast and easy to use. The TDS-EZ meter you have is fine as long as you consistently measure water at tank temperature. You would think the one with the built-in thermometer and temp compensation would cost more but it doesn't. Temperature by the way has a much bigger effect on TDS measurement than on pH measurement. When you calibrate your pH meter it is good enough if the calibration fluid is within 8 or 10 degrees Fahrenheit of the water you test.

Here is the best article I have seen on TDS:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rhf/feature/index.php

[jack]

Thanks dan and dudley for the explanations :D really helpful and useful information!!

So is GH measured with a kit? and is this measurement important to have?
And I don't quite get the part where "Softened water" is not really a difference for fish. So soft/hard water doesn't really matter for discus? or doesn't make that much of a difference?

Since I eventually want to breed discus and all that fun stuff and I've read in a lot of places that "soft" is preferred. maybe through an RO system?

[DJW]

I think its good to know your water, especially its pH swing and TDS, but it doesn't hurt to also know the GH and KH (carbonate hardness, or alkalinity). Here is the test kit I use for those:

http://www.amazon.com/API-GH-KH-Test-Kit/dp/B003SNCHMA

The KH is a measure of the water's capacity to keep a stable pH. With frequent water changes this is not a concern unless the KH is extremely low.

For breeding most people use a mix of RO and tap for softer water. If you don't have a water softener then the matter is simpler. If you do then Dudley can explain the part about soft/hard water better than I can. My situation is not typical, I'm forced to use RO for everything because of high nitrates in the well water and so I don't mix any in with the RO. Nitrates in city water are not that common but should be tested for just in case.

[jack]

Sounds good. Bought :D

Now I need to do some research on meds just in case and get some on hand.
what are some of the important ones that is like a must have?

Yeah and I don't have a RO system rn so Id have to get one if it comes to that.

[WmTasker]

Hello Jack from Crestline OH. How is the fish keeping coming along?