Peppering in pigeon-blood, or pigeon-based discus ?

[discuspaul]

I just read on another forum a quite assertive statement from a fairly new discus-keeper that peppering had now been effectively 'bred out of' pigeon-blood discus. This is complete news to me - any truth to it?
I have asked the OP where that information came from, and am awaiting an answer.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sounds like another newbie nazi Paul. Knows not of what he speaks. :)
Pat

[nc0gnet0]

LOL

Bred out...no. But I say it's safe to assume that it has in fact been reduced quite significantly. I guess it all comes down to your interpretation of the term "effectively"?

[DJW]

Paul, your poster is referring to Al's video of all things, and I found the part on peppering, its from 1:02 to 1:04...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8&feature=youtu.be

[discuspaul]

Paul, your poster is referring to Al's video of all things, and I found the part on peppering, its from 1:02 to 1:04...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8&feature=youtu.be

Yes, I recalled that, and so I had another listen to that part of the video. I wondered if that particular commentary warranted some qualification, or whether the efforts of many Asian breeders concentrating on Pigeons had been so widely successful to date, so that one was able to readily & freely obtain certain pigeon-based discus in the marketplace that you didn't need to concern yourself over their ever developing any peppering, even if/when kept in dark surroundings ?

[DJW]

In a talk that covers a lot of ground, its hard to add in every shade of nuance.

[CliffsDiscus]

I just read on another forum a quite assertive statement from a fairly new discus-keeper that peppering had now been effectively 'bred out of' pigeon-blood discus. This is complete news to me - any truth to it?
I have asked the OP where that information came from, and am awaiting an answer.

Pigeon Bloods without the peppering Yes. Read the last BayAreaDiscus Meeting on this forum. The peppering is hidden and on the third generation thats when Mendelian laws kicks into play, that when the peppering will reapear again. Third generation would
look like their grandparents which were Carry Strongs whitebutterfly and the FireReds. So its been around for around 10 years in
the San Francisco Bay Area.


Cliff

[Bif24701]

Hello All,
I am the newbi discus Nazi, lol. I have been blogging about my new 75 system where i have transferred my two older discus. It was brought up that the dark substrate and/or background I have would cause my NEW discus that I have coming in Tuesday to have peppering. My current pigeon blood based discus clearly has peppering yes. My concern and the concern of the individual who brought it up was that the new discus could get the peppering. I was under the impression that isnt the problem that it once was. Clearly that isn't consensus. I am not unschooled and have done my research, although my true passion and knowledge is based in reef aquariums where i post often on a certain reefing central forum (same user name). My wife is the true OWNER of this system and she is the "boss" when it comes to the set up. I am more like the muscle and advisor, lol. Anyway, I love keeping fish and especially discus. Please lets discuss this.

First, my new fish:
What kind of peppering could we see with them? What evidence is there that this will occur? Does lighting play a factor? Other than changing the substrate, what could be done to prevent this?

Introducing my new fish:
After quarantine, what is the best method, I'm told these will be about 4.5" will they have a problem going in with my other two? Other advice?

Thank you.

[Bif24701]

This was the video i referenced. https://youtu.be/VXe3VKh7qF8

[Bif24701]

Here are the 4 that I ordered. These are the actual fish, hand picked.
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/46B94740-CE16-4DFA-8268-460B49660284.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/46B94740-CE16-4DFA-8268-460B49660284.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

My two current fish
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/2E264E5C-021E-4C36-995D-D4D838C536CE.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/2E264E5C-021E-4C36-995D-D4D838C536CE.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

These are my buddy's discus, simular set up and ordered from same place.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/45B43F6F-E01E-47E0-8991-A76BFEF4A63A.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/45B43F6F-E01E-47E0-8991-A76BFEF4A63A.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

Pigeon Bloods without the peppering Yes. Read the last BayAreaDiscus Meeting on this forum. The peppering is hidden and on the third generation thats when Mendelian laws kicks into play, that when the peppering will reapear again. Third generation would
look like their grandparents which were Carry Strongs whitebutterfly and the FireReds. So its been around for around 10 years in
the San Francisco Bay Area.


Cliff

I will look into that. Thank you.

[Bif24701]

My two current fish
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/2E264E5C-021E-4C36-995D-D4D838C536CE.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/2E264E5C-021E-4C36-995D-D4D838C536CE.jpg.html)

Oh, the peppering on this pigeon blood has not changed from when picked him up at the LFS, though he has colored up more.

[Second Hand Pat]

Aaron, grab the IMG code and paste it into the reply box.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/46B94740-CE16-4DFA-8268-460B49660284.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/46B94740-CE16-4DFA-8268-460B49660284.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

I edited it, think its fixed. Is it?

[Second Hand Pat]

Indeed it is. :)
Pat

[discuspaul]

I thought you might pipe up here, Aaron.
A very belated welcome to the forum -I have no doubt you'll now be more active here on SD than you have been in the past.

[Bif24701]

Thanks Paul, yes I will certainly be more active. I am in and out of the hobby due to being active duty and having to move and set up all over and over again. My only qualm with SD is that we are not on tapatalk and posting on my phone was difficult because I couldn't agree to the terms, lol.

Fish are a great passion of mine I go through great lengths to keep them well. Coral however are an addiction!!! My reef tank is currently in the middle of cycling.

[LizStreithorst]

Peppering or bars are always present in all Discus except for Ghosts. Good breeding, good care and lighting play a huge part is whether the pepper or bars are visible.

[Bif24701]

Peppering or bars are always present in all Discus except for Ghosts. Good breeding, good care and lighting play a huge part is whether the pepper or bars are visible.

In what way does lighting play a role, as in spectrum or amount?

[Bif24701]

One problem with the black back ground, it's like a mirror.
FTS
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/3E873C37-CD52-4A01-B03C-C352837D094A.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/3E873C37-CD52-4A01-B03C-C352837D094A.jpg.html)

[LizStreithorst]

If the lighting is low or ambient light the Discus will be more likely to show bars and pepper. It is their way camouflage themselves. With PBs it is extremely importamt to have good lighting and a light colored tank.

[Bif24701]

If the lighting is low or ambient light the Discus will be more likely to show bars and pepper. It is their way camouflage themselves. With PBs it is extremely importamt to have good lighting and a light colored tank.

So brighter light is better or must be a combination with the lighter substrate and background?

[discuspaul]

Not sure about the brighter lighting, but I do feel that both of light background and light substrate together can make a large difference in diminishing peppering.

[LizStreithorst]

IMHO no Discus tank should have a substrate. A dark substrate is absolutely the worst if you want the fish to look their best. I'm a bit of a purist so take my advice with a grain of salt. Not everyone wants the same thing.

[Bif24701]

IMHO no Discus tank should have a substrate. A dark substrate is absolutely the worst if you want the fish to look their best. I'm a bit of a purist so take my advice with a grain of salt. Not everyone wants the same thing.
Yes, I will take that with some salt, and I can taste the salt you put on that. Lol.

I am also a purist myself when it comes to my reef tank, however I've not encountered a group within the reefing community that is nearly as ridged as it seems we are with discus when it comes to aquarium set up. Except maybe the tang police. Then again that's really particular as well and we all have our prefrances. I'm not sure bare bottom discus is for us. At least with a bare bottom reef set up most of the bottom is covered in either rock or coral.

[LizStreithorst]

Forgive me. I know that I can come across as judgmental. It's not my intention.. You want an attractive display tank. I don't care about that. I still say that dark colors bring out bars in barred Discus and pepper in PBs.

[discuspaul]

In a talk that covers a lot of ground, its hard to add in every shade of nuance.

Yes, of course it is, Dan - no criticism whatsoever of Al was intended, and quite honestly, it may very well be that a particular strain of Pigeon-based fish that is more or less true to not showing any tendency to display peppering, has now been developed. That's what I'd like to find out.

[Bif24701]

Forgive me. I know that I can come across as judgmental. It's not my intention.. You want an attractive display tank. I don't care about that. I still say that dark colors bring out bars in barred Discus and pepper in PBs.

Not at all, I want to care for these fish as best as possible. Although we change water daily and weekly clean out filters and such it may not still be enough. My hope is that we can still have an enjoyable and health aquarium that my wife and family love.

[Bif24701]

Forgive me. I know that I can come across as judgmental. It's not my intention.. You want an attractive display tank. I don't care about that. I still say that dark colors bring out bars in barred Discus and pepper in PBs.


Yes, of course it is, Dan - no criticism whatsoever of Al was intended, and quite honestly, it may very well be that a particular strain of Pigeon-based fish that is more or less true to not showing any tendency to display peppering, has now been developed. That's what I'd like to find out.

I as well

[Bif24701]

May not be ideal but these guys lay eggs once or twice a week.

[Bif24701]

It's fun to watch
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/570ED159-FC17-4EA0-B4DF-FA0B51650A0F.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/570ED159-FC17-4EA0-B4DF-FA0B51650A0F.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/th_3E656A26-9F15-4819-BB10-86A2BF8C6610.jpg (http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/3E656A26-9F15-4819-BB10-86A2BF8C6610.mp4)

[Akili]

May not be ideal but these guys lay eggs once or twice a week.Too much turbulence for the eggs to get fertilized as the are laid on the intake of the filter.

[Bif24701]

Too much turbulence for the eggs to get fertilized as the are laid on the intake of the filter.

Yes we noticed, not concerned however with breeding at this point. Is it common for discus to spawn?

[Akili]

Yes we noticed, not concerned however with breeding at this point. Is it common for discus to spawn?They will continue like clock work from 3 days to 3 weeks or more.

[Bif24701]

That's pretty cool. Maybe some day we will put them in their own tank or somtbing

[Akili]

Forgot to mention that if they have a successful spawn then the turn around time varies from six weeks to 3 months or more in most cases.

[Bif24701]

Ok thank you

[Bif24701]

How do my current discus look as far as growth/size?

[DISCUS STU]

Could they have meant that there's a newer strain that doesn't have peppering, but does this effectively filter through to the rest of the breeders.

I bought one a few months ago that is still a juvenile that displays intense peppering. Due to this I'm going to give PB's a rest for a little while and pursue other strains.

[Second Hand Pat]

I listened to Al's talk again and it does sound like he implies that peppering has been bred out of some lines of PBs, but he also ties that statement to "best quality". I know here on Simply quite often a member places a PB in a tank with dark substrate and the fish will pepper some so we suggest removing or replacing the dark substrate with light sand.

Perhaps Al can give a bit more info on this next time he is online. :)
Pat

[Bif24701]

I listened to Al's talk again and it does sound like he implies that peppering has been bred out of some lines of PBs, but he also ties that statement to "best quality". I know here on Simply quite often a member places a PB in a tank with dark substrate and the fish will pepper some so we suggest removing or replacing the dark substrate with light sand.

Perhaps Al can give a bit more info on this next time he is online. :)
Pat

That's exactly what I took from it. I would love to hear what he says.

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=DISCUS STU;1208440]Could they have meant that there's a newer strain that doesn't have peppering, but does this effectively filter through to the rest of the breeders.

I had my Pigeon cross with an abnormaity to achieve the no peppering look, will maybe sometime only one dot.

[CliffsDiscus]

I listened to Al's talk again and it does sound like he implies that peppering has been bred out of some lines of PBs, but he also ties that statement to "best quality". I know here on Simply quite often a member places a PB in a tank with dark substrate and the fish will pepper some so we suggest removing or replacing the dark substrate with light sand.

Perhaps Al can give a bit more info on this next time he is online. :)
Pat

The "Best Quality" are kept by the breeders and they will tell you that there is no "Relase date yet."

Cliff

[Bif24701]

Last night I visited my friend that already has a few discus from the same place mine are coming from. I looked closely at them and did notice one or two did have some darkness on the very fringe of the fins in some places that I assume could be called peppering? No other blemishes to speak of however.

[rickztahone]

Aaron, nice RBTA on your avatar and nice clown. Do you have a thread on your reef tank?

Secondly, as others have said, PB's are super "clean" now-a-days but still are PB's. This is how you will know that PB's live on, take the cleanest PB you can find, and mix it with a non-PB discus. You will notice the offspring will show heavy peppering. If peppering were truly bred out of PB's, then you would not see this in a real world experiment.

[Bif24701]

Aaron, nice RBTA on your avatar and nice clown. Do you have a thread on your reef tank?

Secondly, as others have said, PB's are super "clean" now-a-days but still are PB's. This is how you will know that PB's live on, take the cleanest PB you can find, and mix it with a non-PB discus. You will notice the offspring will show heavy peppering. If peppering were truly bred out of PB's, then you would not see this in a real world experiment.

Thank you! I loved my RBTA and my clown. I had to take that tank down when I moved from Arizona to Florida. I set it up a second time but that was short lived because I was sent on remote tour for one year to Korea. Here is a video http://youtu.be/B7w-hrJtOYM
I was didn't have a build thread, but took a lot of pictures. http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/DD168F11-C42C-4E07-B0E3-ED2A5558DEFD-4893-000006D57789AA49.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/DD168F11-C42C-4E07-B0E3-ED2A5558DEFD-4893-000006D57789AA49.jpg.html)

Ok, I get the understanding. So what I would like to know is if my fish don't show any peppering now, it is unlikely they will show significant peppering even with a dark substrate?

[Bif24701]

Rick, nice 75 with 40 sump! Love the detail! That's what I have for my current reef system. It's cycling right now.

[rickztahone]

Very cool video. Nice looking nems for sure. The photos seem to be broken links to photobucket which I can't access here at work unfortunately. Will check them out later.

If a pigeon blood discus does not show ANY peppering in a BB tank with light colored background, it doesn't necessarily mean it will not show peppering in a tank with dark substrate. It is one of those things where you wont know until you do it. One of the first things that starts turning darker is the outer fins, like soft dorsal or anal fins or even the caudal fin

[Bif24701]

Here are some more pictures.
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/5D423CCA-F1C1-4859-9694-898DB7E00AEB-4726-000006BC7135ED1A.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/5D423CCA-F1C1-4859-9694-898DB7E00AEB-4726-000006BC7135ED1A.jpg.html)
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/155FB8AD-BE9F-4DF4-AD91-F65639FB4CC2-4726-000006BCCDB530D6.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/155FB8AD-BE9F-4DF4-AD91-F65639FB4CC2-4726-000006BCCDB530D6.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

New babies are here!!!
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/A018F8F1-E57B-40A3-9D66-A90674556E2B.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/A018F8F1-E57B-40A3-9D66-A90674556E2B.jpg.html)
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/A0A9F7C0-E4B2-40F5-B1F4-E379B91E5192.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/A0A9F7C0-E4B2-40F5-B1F4-E379B91E5192.jpg.html)
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/5C4E9C4C-41C8-46D9-8E66-ABF514A3C8D6.jpg (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Wasson/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/5C4E9C4C-41C8-46D9-8E66-ABF514A3C8D6.jpg.html)

[Bif24701]

Bought my fish from Matt's Coral Connection in Fort Walton Beach Florida. Matt's got exactly what we wanted and hand picked them. Amazing. Very happy!

[rickztahone]

Good looking stock. Good luck. Nice pics

[Bif24701]

Thank you

[Akili]

Very Nice looking, Some local fish stores do have a good stock :thumbsup: