Wilds from JackWattley/what are we getting with wilds (merged)

[zchauvin]

Anyone purchase any wilds from jack wattley discus? Can't find any feedback. Thanks

[TCDISCUS]

I personally haven't purchased any wilds from gabe at wattleys discus but I have seen them when I stop by the hatchery and they look good. He gets them from Santarem Discus.

[zchauvin]

Good to know thanks

[DISCUS STU]

I personally haven't purchased any wilds from gabe at wattleys discus but I have seen them when I stop by the hatchery and they look good. He gets them from Santarem Discus.

Same here. He has a lot of these all large and healthy including Heckels. Bought two of them, one nice blue and a Heckel.

[zchauvin]

Same here. He has a lot of these all large and healthy including Heckels. Bought two of them, one nice blue and a Heckel.
Great, I will be ordering soon. Waiting to get the catalogue from santarem of there collection grade before ordering.

[Phillydubs]

I had no idea that his were from Santerm... I see their videos on youtube all the time and they always have stuning stuff!

His prices however seem to be rather high and I have heard mixed reviews myself on Gabe...?

Stu,

Any pics of the ones you got from him?

[Lighthouse7]

Here is 2 of sponsors - discusorigins@yahoo.com
- snookn21@yahoo.com good luck - Lighthouse

[zchauvin]

I have purchased from Snookn before but was not 100% on the quality of fish, and Mark will not be getting more this season. From what I see on website they are actually cheaper than some of the competition and currently have a large amount of fish coming in over the next few weeks.

[zchauvin]

Well, to anyone wanting fish from JackWattley I would personally not buy. I was looking for collection grade fish and Gabriel told me no problem that he could get fish for me. Sent me pictures of fish that he ordered, which in my eyes clearly not collection grade. Hugo made clear to me through email that no collection grade fish are sent here as his asia customers give far too much business to send quality to US market. I would have been buying $200 fish at $800 a piece. Just FYI to anyone interested. Guess I'll wait until next season! Bummer...

[Phillydubs]

Wow... Talk about bait and switch...

[Phillydubs]

Does santerm ship direct to anyone in the us??

[zchauvin]

No they do not

[Phillydubs]

Zach,

Maybe you can school me and others a bit or someone else can chime in... Can you provide some more info on these selection lines and what makes them such?

The reason I ask is because when I was researching my wilds I had 2 hobbyist who I respect basically tell me the selection line and this and that is a bunch of BS and just a way for discus to get marked up to crazy prices? I also heard that because wilds take a long time to settle in an aquarium some places sell "collection line wilds" which are just older wilds that are adjusted and showing better color as opposed to a new wild that is still adapting.

Again, I have no experience here... I am nt knocking anyone who's bought them who sells them or anywhere inbetween just hoping for an education myself and for others.

Honestly I didn't have the coin to flip on anything like that so I didn't even bother to look. The $150 a pop I spent per fish was pretty much maxing me out as it was. That being said I love what I got and I have at least 3 in there that if someone said oh that's collection line I might agree because they are so nice so who knows really I guess.

[zchauvin]

As far as I can tell you, they have no defects as far as a discus goes. More color, larger, better shape. Typically casual line is gold eye and not a nice shape, these fish will normally be much cheaper. Selection line is the typical nice discus. Some may have a point to them but most will look fairly round, be healthy, no torn up fin, not too skinny ect. Most fish you see that are pretty are the selection line. Collection line is what makes your jaw drop. Honestly, the biggest thing is the fish you see online that look amazing have been kept in lrestone conditions for quite some time and have good color. Same can be had from a younger fish but you don't get immediate gratification. Is it worth the extra $300, absolutely not. In the long run unless you have to have something better than the other guy the selection is fine, most people don't even mind the casual. I just see fish that don't compare to any others and having had selection, and casual line fish, I would prefer to have collection line. I'm sure once I paid the premium to get them, it would fizzle out and it would seem like a waste. I've seen pretty fish that didn't cost half of a collection line.


Obviously if there's someone willing to pay, then yes people will charge more. I've seen some 7" wild discus that were very scuffed up and what not and wouldn't pass as selection much less better so it isn't only that they are old fish and what not. Size obviously is a big factor, but so is shape and color. A 7" fish with a bite taken out of it wont sell for nearly as much as a 5" Royal. At the end of the day, it's personal preference. After all, a discus to me is essentially a bream from another country. I can catch bream here all day but still wouldn't mind spending whatever I had to have the fish that makes me happy.

[Larry Bugg]

I agree with most of Zach's assessment except for the size reference. Size does not affect a wild being classified as casual, selection or collection, unless you somehow could determine that the smaller size were genetic (which is not known). It is harder to determine the differences in smaller discus to differentiate between selection and collection since they haven't matured but there are differences. It really isn't any different than when we judge discus for a show. Size, shape, color, uniformity, eyes, fins............all these are judged and a rating is given. The collection line will essentially be a Show grade wild. You pay a premium for collection just as you will pay a premium for Show grade. Now you have to keep in mind that in a lot of cases domestic breeders will label a discus to increase the price when the rating really isn't accurate. We see "Show Grade" advertised pretty often and in reality most of these discus wouldn't even place in a Show. There are three big wholesalers of wild discus and all three are experienced enough to sort and rate their fish pretty accurately.

[DISCUS STU]

I had no idea that his were from Santerm... I see their videos on youtube all the time and they always have stuning stuff!

His prices however seem to be rather high and I have heard mixed reviews myself on Gabe...?

Stu,

Any pics of the ones you got from him?

Hey Phil, Gabe is solid and reputable, I've been dealing with him years. The wilds in the last few years even before the Santerm fish but with Discus in general for a long time. The prices were decent. Will try to get some pics. Here's a Heckel I bought from him a few years ago. Very nice. 96655

[zchauvin]

I agree with most of Zach's assessment except for the size reference. Size does not affect a wild being classified as casual, selection or collection, unless you somehow could determine that the smaller size were genetic (which is not known). It is harder to determine the differences in smaller discus to differentiate between selection and collection since they haven't matured but there are differences. It really isn't any different than when we judge discus for a show. Size, shape, color, uniformity, eyes, fins............all these are judged and a rating is given. The collection line will essentially be a Show grade wild. You pay a premium for collection just as you will pay a premium for Show grade. Now you have to keep in mind that in a lot of cases domestic breeders will label a discus to increase the price when the rating really isn't accurate. We see "Show Grade" advertised pretty often and in reality most of these discus wouldn't even place in a Show. There are three big wholesalers of wild discus and all three are experienced enough to sort and rate their fish pretty accurately.

This is what threw me off about the fish I was shown. They did not seem like anything any better than the typical selection grade brought in by mark. If I weren't late to the party I would have dealt with mark and not inquired to begin with, but at least now I know to steer clear. The fish I was shown at least, were nothing special but marked up significantly more so than what is common.

[zchauvin]

Hey Phil, Gabe is solid and reputable, I've been dealing with him years. The wilds in the last few years even before the Santerm fish but with Discus in general for a long time. The prices were decent. Will try to get some pics. Here's a Heckel I bought from him a few years ago. Very nice. 96655

Stu, that looks like a typical selection grade from WBSabby and is very similar in size, shape, health ect as the fish I was shown when inquiring about collection and with a price of $500 each.

[Phillydubs]

Zach, care to post the pictures you were sent so people can get an idea and an education about this stuff?

[Phillydubs]

Thanks for the info Larry that was very informative...

I just posted some pics of my recent wilds from John... I have to say, I was worried to get some tattered fish or less than spectacular. Maybe I got lucky, maybe John just selected me some beauties but I am so happy with mine, especially for the price i paid....

[Larry Bugg]

Thanks for the info Larry that was very informative...

I just posted some pics of my recent wilds from John... I have to say, I was worried to get some tattered fish or less than spectacular. Maybe I got lucky, maybe John just selected me some beauties but I am so happy with mine, especially for the price i paid....

I started to say above that I believe in the saying "you get what you pay for". In most cases I believe this holds true when buying discus. I have ordered a good many wilds from John and Mark. I have been satisfied with my purchases from both of them but I understood that I was paying less per fish from John so my expectations were not as high. John gets his discus from a wholesaler in Florida and discus sent to a wholesaler are not usually the quality you will get direct from the importer. The best wilds are pulled out and sold directly and the remainder go to the wholesalers (as a general rule). This doesn't mean that you won't get some nice wilds from John. On the contrary, you can but the majority will not be the quality you will get from Mark, hence you get what you pay for. I will probably continue to buy from both of them but when I am looking for something specific and of consistent quality I will go to Mark. I mentioned in another post that when I get my fish room back up and running I am planning on working on some domestic/wild crosses. I bought what I hope are male wilds from Mark because I'm looking for that quality to breed.

There are a couple of other differences that I will add. John is not a discus person. He sells all kinds of fish from the Amazon. Mark is a discus person and has a great knowledge base when it comes to wilds. Another difference is that when Mark tells you a wild name (collection point) it will be correct. The names John has for his wilds come from the wholesaler and are not always so accurate. I remember several years ago when the Cuipeua fishing area was closed for the season the wholesaler was selling wilds labeled Cuipeua.

For what you pay both have some nice wilds.

[DISCUS STU]

96789
Stu, that looks like a typical selection grade from WBSabby and is very similar in size, shape, health ect as the fish I was shown when inquiring about collection and with a price of $500 each.

I bought this from Gabe at Wattley's for about $100 if memory serves. The price was good and the fish was in all respects a fine, healthy fish. Actually I bought two like this but this was the nicer one. It was a beautiful, blue faced Heckel (Cabeca Azul?) that unfortunately jumped out of my tank during a heat wave. My fault. Maybe not perfect, perfect but nonetheless a very nice fish.

Again the Santarem fish that I saw and bought at Wattley's from Gabe were all very nice and in the $100 range though at that time I saw no Tefe Spotted Green's, my favorite.

I don't know who WBSabby is except that they sell expensive fish. I'm not interested in buying $500-$600 fish at this time or until I hit the Big 6 lottery, lol.

[nofearengineer]

This thread just gave me some great ammunition for rationalization. If someone says I spent way too much money on fish, I can just retort "hey...I bought the inexpensive ones from John". :p

Personally...they're all "show grade" to me at this point. My discus will all get spoiled like grand champions.

[zchauvin]

I'm sure the company means well, both santarem and Gabe at wattley but at the end of the day I just thought the fish looked like every other nice discus, but did not warrant the price tag. When searching through photos, the fish sent here labeled as 14-15 cm and very nice looked great, until I saw the same album but of a Hong Kong shipment. Immediate difference in color and shape for sure, size was comparable. If this link is not allowed I am not aware, but this is what I was sent with "these are $500 a piece" attached. IMO I could get this quality any day from mark for 50% of the price. It felt like a slap in the face that they showed me this because I inquired about collection grade and told them no issues on price.

https://www.facebook.com/Santaremdiscus/videos/vb.348960730435/10156830954875436/?type=2&theater&notif_t=video_processed&notif_id=1460511190744000&__mref=message_bubble

[zchauvin]

96789

I bought this from Gabe at Wattley's for about $100 if memory serves. The price was good and the fish was in all respects a fine, healthy fish. Actually I bought two like this but this was the nicer one. It was a beautiful, blue faced Heckel (Cabeca Azul?) that unfortunately jumped out of my tank during a heat wave. My fault. Maybe not perfect, perfect but nonetheless a very nice fish.

Again the Santarem fish that I saw and bought at Wattley's from Gabe were all very nice and in the $100 range though at that time I saw no Tefe Spotted Green's, my favorite.

I don't know who WBSabby is except that they sell expensive fish. I'm not interested in buying $500-$600 fish at this time or until I hit the Big 6 lottery, lol.

And WBSabby does not sell expensive fish, I hope you don't that perspective. They sell smaller cheaper fish as well as larger nicer costly fish. They are same as santarem HK just seem to have better business ethics.

[Phillydubs]

Link dosnt work for me

[zchauvin]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156768162150436&id=348960730435

[zchauvin]

And collection grade fish....

https://m.facebook.com/Santaremdiscus/albums/10156744664925436/https://m.facebook.com/Santaremdiscus/albums/10156744611760436/

[zchauvin]

I could add more and more. Taiwan, Hong Kong, ect. It's sick to see how nice.

[DISCUS STU]

And WBSabby does not sell expensive fish, I hope you don't that perspective. They sell smaller cheaper fish as well as larger nicer costly fish. They are same as santarem HK just seem to have better business ethics.

I hear you. The stuff I found was the expensive stuff. Point taken.

[DISCUS STU]

I'm sure the company means well, both santarem and Gabe at wattley but at the end of the day I just thought the fish looked like every other nice discus, but did not warrant the price tag. When searching through photos, the fish sent here labeled as 14-15 cm and very nice looked great, until I saw the same album but of a Hong Kong shipment. Immediate difference in color and shape for sure, size was comparable. If this link is not allowed I am not aware, but this is what I was sent with "these are $500 a piece" attached. IMO I could get this quality any day from mark for 50% of the price. It felt like a slap in the face that they showed me this because I inquired about collection grade and told them no issues on price.

https://www.facebook.com/Santaremdiscus/videos/vb.348960730435/10156830954875436/?type=2&theater¬if_t=video_processed¬if_id=146051119074400 0&__mref=message_bubble

According to Gabe at JW, the Heckel Half Moons shown in the link are really up there in price, $500-$600 or so, and also in very high demand.

For myself I just want some nice healthy wild fish. I'm willing to go about $150 max.

[nolefan]

I have been to John's he has some nice fish and also some that are meh .. When I called him on the phone he was helpful but I knew he wasn't going to send me his best 8 wilds I wanted so I made the drive and hand picked them myself and out of the pics he sent me of what he was going to send I only got 1 of them .. He has so many discus he didn't go through them .. He just told me oh must hast overlooked that tank ..

[zchauvin]

STU, those indeed are in that price range. I have no issues with the price, but issues with the quality. For that price, I would expect more and bigger fish. I am not one to lean one way or another to a retail or importer but when one will provide you with the same as another but market it as a lower grade fish and a lower price vs the other at a higher price and higher grade... I will choose the better deal obviously. I have had cheaper fish and simply was not satisfied. Like I said, I am in no way bashing anyone but the quality for the price simply is not there. Perhaps it is more demand driven, which is ok because I have no interest in heckels anyways.


Nolefan, I agree. My first fish I purchased from john were Tefe Greens and out of I believe six fish I got one that was actually round and about 7". The rest were ok at best, but the price was great compared to other places. They were my first wilds and I was just looking to get fish without breaking the bank. As the itch and hobby grew on me I wanted better and better and sadly seems as what I am after is not obtainable in the US market. I have spoken with both US suppliers and the response was simple - Better clients get better fish. But thats a whole other story, one of which has me thinking about the fish we actually receive here and sold to as a Selection grade. A quick search of fish shipments to China - one in particular of 239 fish - will show you quickly that our Selection grade fish - are no more than the bottom of the bucket and that casual grade is simply something a breeder of domestic fish would cull.

[Second Hand Pat]

So Zach, you would consider the fish in my avatar "low" quality?
Pat

[zchauvin]

So Zach, you would consider the fish in my avatar "low" quality?
Pat

Depends Pat, while a very nice fish for what we are offered, or what I have seen offered I would say it is a phenomenal fish. If you compare your fish to one that was sent to China in the particular shipment I am speaking of, it would not compare. While you can't judge size of fish from your avatar, I would say every fish was 6.5" or greater, perfect shape, and tons of color... Easily what I would consider a collection grade fish, except they only get like 5 of those a year right so they couldn't be collection grade. If not collection, but far nicer than what we are offered as selection then obviously we are getting scraps or there is some grade in between that we have never heard of.

[Las Vegas]

Depends Pat, while a very nice fish for what we are offered, or what I have seen offered I would say it is a phenomenal fish. If you compare your fish to one that was sent to China in the particular shipment I am speaking of, it would not compare. While you can't judge size of fish from your avatar, I would say every fish was 6.5" or greater, perfect shape, and tons of color.

"Oh No, Now you did it!" Trap Sprung!

[Second Hand Pat]

Japan get the best of the best so no comparison. But based on your remarks on various grades you should not be happy with any wild fish available in the US.
Pat

[zchauvin]

"Oh No, Now you did it!" Trap Sprung!

No trap, just being honest. Proof is in the photos, anyone can take five minutes and find them and make a comparison.


Japan get the best of the best so no comparison. But based on your remarks on various grades you should not be happy with any wild fish available in the US.
Pat

Happy with them? Im not mad about what we get, but not thrilled. I just don't see how we can be sold fish as high grade when they simply will never compare to an average grade fish sent elsewhere.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, then why buy wild fish? Why not get some high-grade domestics so you can be happy with your fish? or raise your own fish so you can pick the best.
Pat

[zchauvin]

OK, then why buy wild fish? Why not get some high-grade domestics so you can be happy with your fish? or raise your own fish so you can pick the best.
Pat

Whole point of trying to get collection was to breed them, especially now that I see how hard if even possible it will be to get Collection grade. I asked once about breeding lower grade wilds and culling until I got high grade and was told it wasn't possible, therefore I would need to start with good genetics to get anywhere. Correct?

And I really don't care for domestic fish.

And honestly, Im not trying to make a dispute or argument about anything. Simply saying that what we are sold as higher grade wilds are not even close to what is actually available else where. Thats it.

[Phillydubs]

I have to say that this thread has been rather interesting to me and informative...

Part of me wishes I knew all of this a few weeks ago when I was shopping, the other part of me is super happy with m,y purchase and since I don't plan to breed or bring my fish to a show, I am happy with the price I paid and with what I received... Maybe because I set my expectations low that I feel so blown away by what I got, not sure?

I did not know the differences between John and Mark that Larry pointed out so that was very informative and I am sure I will have more wild discus down the road and will file this one away for another time...

Now that I see what Zach is referring to from some of these over seas' shipments, these guys are getting beasts sent their way, I didn't even know wild discus got so big and round!

[zchauvin]

I have to say that this thread has been rather interesting to me and informative...

Part of me wishes I knew all of this a few weeks ago when I was shopping, the other part of me is super happy with m,y purchase and since I don't plan to breed or bring my fish to a show, I am happy with the price I paid and with what I received... Maybe because I set my expectations low that I feel so blown away by what I got, not sure?

I did not know the differences between John and Mark that Larry pointed out so that was very informative and I am sure I will have more wild discus down the road and will file this one away for another time...

Now that I see what Zach is referring to from some of these over seas' shipments, these guys are getting beasts sent their way, I didn't even know wild discus got so big and round!

If you want to be blown away go on Facebook and look up Wild Discus from Amazon. Scroll through to the China shipment called Creme de la Creme or any of the Reserve albums.

I just hope one day it is possible we can obtain this quality of fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

Zach, Mark might be able to get collection grade fish for you but you are looking at laying out several thousands of a group of six.

For me I have been happy with both the fish I have gotten from John and Mark. When the first group of Tefe's from John breed for me I was over the moon. I prefer wild fish because they are not a man-made creation but a wild fish which was tough enough to make it to adulthood even the all it's "defects". Remember that quality is an artificial standard we have apply to a wild fish but breed for with domestics. Also we have to balance "quality" with cost. My current group of selection line Cuipeua ran me about $2400 and is a lot of money on a retirement income. I am sure glad I started with $50 wilds from John however. I will also say I have gotten equal pleasure from both.
Pat

[zchauvin]

Zach, Mark might be able to get collection grade fish for you but you are looking at laying out several thousands of a group of six.

For me I have been happy with both the fish I have gotten from John and Mark. When the first group of Tefe's from John breed for me I was over the moon. I prefer wild fish because they are not a man-made creation but a wild fish which was tough enough to make it to adulthood even the all it's "defects". Remember that quality is an artificial standard we have apply to a wild fish but breed for with domestics. Also we have to balance "quality" with cost. My current group of selection line Cuipeua ran me about $2400 and is a lot of money on a retirement income. I am sure glad I started with $50 wilds from John however. I will also say I have gotten equal pleasure from both.
Pat


I 100% agree Pat, I loved my first greens from John as well as the heckels and Pacavol from Mark and now the angels Ill be getting. Its not that I do not enjoy the fish and need to have a certain thing to be happy. If anything I am only slightly discouraged, the amount of times I have wondered about collection grade and been told how difficult and expensive it is, only to see what I would consider collection being sold as no more than average. Like I said we are merely getting leftovers or lower grade fish than what is readily available and in high numbers when all we or I for that matter are told is that it is difficult to acquire due to such low numbers, which is obviously not accurate. I know what the costs are and am willing to pay but yet it seems that we simply will not be sold these fish because of "better clients". I do not think I am an overly picky person but I will get some of those fish lol.

I am in the same boat as you when you say you prefer wilds as I have no desire to have what I consider mutated fish. Leave well enough alone, and give me what was put on the planet to enjoy, not what has been made to be more desirable by the paying customer... Thats the best part about reef fish :)

While I have been told by Mark before that it is possible, and had planned to make a purchase before moving and being late to the party for this season, the messages from WBsabby are discouraging as well as other importers who all have the same answer. Better client - better fish, these fish are not sent to the US.

[Phillydubs]

Why do you guys think or maybe you know why we here in the US are not good customers to get such fish? Is the market for wild discus just not big enough here as it is in say Japan?

By better customer I am assuming you mean buys more, pays more, sells more, etc...?

One would think here in the almighty US we get the best and people will pay for it, but it seems like when it comes to fish and especially these fish we just don't compare..

[zchauvin]

Why do you guys think or maybe you know why we here in the US are not good customers to get such fish? Is the market for wild discus just not big enough here as it is in say Japan?

Market not large enough, and most of the time in America quantity is put before quality. Cultural differences as well, look as some of the bonsai trees overseas just for a example. You think anyone in america would grow a tiny tree for 40 years lol. And its not necessarily that we are not good customers. But figure one client bringing in 240 fish in one order with an average of $200 per fish or another client who buys 100 fish all season long with an average of $80 per fish. Big difference in a business stand point and obviously the person who pays your bills and gives you an income will win out.

[pitdogg2]

Why do you guys think or maybe you know why we here in the US are not good customers to get such fish? Is the market for wild discus just not big enough here as it is in say Japan?

By better customer I am assuming you mean buys more, pays more, sells more, etc...?

One would think here in the almighty US we get the best and people will pay for it, but it seems like when it comes to fish and especially these fish we just don't compare..


They're are INSANE amounts of cash in Asia for certain fish. It is a status symbol as much as a nice house and car are here. Would you pay $30,000 for one fish? It happens all the time in Asia. This is one reason for the chipped Asian Arowana's in hopes of selling at a affordable price to help combat the raping of them from the wild. Look it is not enough to be illegal just look at the amount of Rhino horn, Tusk, and other animal parts that is leading to the destruction of the certain species. Not too long ago there were pictures of shark fins drying on rooftops there were 10's of thousands of them and this is for soup that cost's more than most of the people make in a year for one bowl of soup.

[zchauvin]

They're are INSANE amounts of cash in Asia for certain fish. It is a status symbol as much as a nice house and car are here. Would you pay $30,000 for one fish? It happens all the time in Asia. This is one reason for the chipped Asian Arowana's in hopes of selling at a affordable price to help combat the raping of them from the wild. Look it is not enough to be illegal just look at the amount of Rhino horn, Tusk, and other animal parts that is leading to the destruction of the certain species. Not too long ago there were pictures of shark fins drying on rooftops there were 10's of thousands of them and this is for soup that cost's more than most of the people make in a year for one bowl of soup.

Yep! Between the Koi and Arowana it makes a $800 discus the equivalent of getting a neon tetra at a local pet store. Its all a matter of opinion and what you like though. My fiancé tells me its ridiculous how much I would be willing to spend for "fish". Yet, she has no hesitation to want a $25,000 rock or a $4000 dog.

[rickztahone]

I 100% agree Pat, I loved my first greens from John as well as the heckels and Pacavol from Mark and now the angels Ill be getting. Its not that I do not enjoy the fish and need to have a certain thing to be happy. If anything I am only slightly discouraged, the amount of times I have wondered about collection grade and been told how difficult and expensive it is, only to see what I would consider collection being sold as no more than average. Like I said we are merely getting leftovers or lower grade fish than what is readily available and in high numbers when all we or I for that matter are told is that it is difficult to acquire due to such low numbers, which is obviously not accurate. I know what the costs are and am willing to pay but yet it seems that we simply will not be sold these fish because of "better clients". I do not think I am an overly picky person but I will get some of those fish lol.

I am in the same boat as you when you say you prefer wilds as I have no desire to have what I consider mutated fish. Leave well enough alone, and give me what was put on the planet to enjoy, not what has been made to be more desirable by the paying customer... Thats the best part about reef fish :)

While I have been told by Mark before that it is possible, and had planned to make a purchase before moving and being late to the party for this season, the messages from WBsabby are discouraging as well as other importers who all have the same answer. Better client - better fish, these fish are not sent to the US.

You are over complicating a very simple concept - Supply and Demand. We live in a capitalist world, and sellers will go where the highest money is offered for ANY product. Simple.

If you would like high grade quality discus, just as with anything else in this world, you will have to buck up and pay the premium. Nothing is impossible to purchase if you have the right amount of money.

Some things are simply beyond our means, and we have to come to terms with this simple fact.

[zchauvin]

You are over complicating a very simple concept - Supply and Demand. We live in a capitalist world, and sellers will go where the highest money is offered for ANY product. Simple.

If you would like high grade quality discus, just as with anything else in this world, you will have to buck up and pay the premium. Nothing is impossible to purchase if you have the right amount of money.

Some things are simply beyond our means, and we have to come to terms with this simple fact.


I disagree. I realize it is that simple and I am 100% ready to pay what the going rate is. If no one will agree to send the fish here regardless of me paying them 1000 each or 100 each then what... That is my point. I know what the fish go for, not complaining that they cost what they do. But the fact that we get the left overs and are sold fish that are marked as a higher grade than they really are is quite irritating. Like I said earlier, what we are presented as " Selection grade " and "casual" are below average and culls compared to the fish that are sent elsewhere. And the really bad part about it is that those fish that Im talking about are not even considered Collection grade but are far better in terms of quality.

[rickztahone]

I disagree. I realize it is that simple and I am 100% ready to pay what the going rate is. If no one will agree to send the fish here regardless of me paying them 1000 each or 100 each then what... That is my point. I know what the fish go for, not complaining that they cost what they do. But the fact that we get the left overs and are sold fish that are marked as a higher grade than they really are is quite irritating. Like I said earlier, what we are presented as " Selection grade " and "casual" are below average and culls compared to the fish that are sent elsewhere. And the really bad part about it is that those fish that Im talking about are not even considered Collection grade but are far better in terms of quality.

Well, I suppose we have reached an impasse. If I were to be willing to spend $1,000 on a discus, I am sure there are ways I would be able to bend the ear of someone that really can make that happen. Where there is a will, there is a way, and where there is money, there will usually be a sale ;)

[zchauvin]

Well, I suppose we have reached an impasse. If I were to be willing to spend $1,000 on a discus, I am sure there are ways I would be able to bend the ear of someone that really can make that happen. Where there is a will, there is a way, and where there is money, there will usually be a sale ;)

Believe me, Im working on it.

[Pardal]

I started to say above that I believe in the saying "you get what you pay for". In most cases I believe this holds true when buying discus. I have ordered a good many wilds from John and Mark. I have been satisfied with my purchases from both of them but I understood that I was paying less per fish from John so my expectations were not as high. John gets his discus from a wholesaler in Florida and discus sent to a wholesaler are not usually the quality you will get direct from the importer. The best wilds are pulled out and sold directly and the remainder go to the wholesalers (as a general rule). This doesn't mean that you won't get some nice wilds from John. On the contrary, you can but the majority will not be the quality you will get from Mark, hence you get what you pay for. I will probably continue to buy from both of them but when I am looking for something specific and of consistent quality I will go to Mark. I mentioned in another post that when I get my fish room back up and running I am planning on working on some domestic/wild crosses. I bought what I hope are male wilds from Mark because I'm looking for that quality to breed.

There are a couple of other differences that I will add. John is not a discus person. He sells all kinds of fish from the Amazon. Mark is a discus person and has a great knowledge base when it comes to wilds. Another difference is that when Mark tells you a wild name (collection point) it will be correct. The names John has for his wilds come from the wholesaler and are not always so accurate. I remember several years ago when the Cuipeua fishing area was closed for the season the wholesaler was selling wilds labeled Cuipeua.

For what you pay both have some nice wilds.
Larry
I couldn't agree more , with both of your explanations very well put it.
Julian

[Larry Bugg]

Larry
I couldn't agree more , with both of your explanations very well put it.
Julian

Thank you.

[Phillydubs]

I would love to hear from Mark on this if he has the time and cared to chime in...

I have yet to deal with Mark but I would like to one of these days and Everytime I've seen him respond to someone on here he makes really concise points and backs it up with evidence. I've seen him educate on collection points and sometimes the misrepresentation of such as I believe Larry touched on earlier. I've also seen him have to explain to someone new who thinks they have a wild fish when they don't.

Anyway point being is if anyone is going to know how wb sabby works it's him. I'm sure he can tell you what he's offered and can get his hand on some top notch stuff but like we said earlier the market here for $1000 isn't what it is elsewhere so of course I see your point that we still get almost the second string stuff but I bet if mark says he can get you something he would based on his reviews.

Would just love to know what is offered how you are presented the fish and such? Has Mark or anyone ever been on a collection trip or to these operations to see how they work ?

[Ryan]

Whole point of trying to get collection was to breed them, especially now that I see how hard if even possible it will be to get Collection grade. I asked once about breeding lower grade wilds and culling until I got high grade and was told it wasn't possible, therefore I would need to start with good genetics to get anywhere. Correct?

No, that is not correct. At least not in a broader sense. All "show quality" domestic fish come from spawns which also include average discus and culls. A lot of breeders do not show their breeding pairs because they're often very unremarkable and ordinary. I have seen incredible show-winning discus come from pairs where neither parent was show quality. The reason true "show quality" fish are so expensive is because out of a spawn of 100 you may have 1 or 2 which meet all the expectations of a show discus. If you could take two show quality fish and breed them, and produce all show quality discus, people would just be doing that.

Now consider wild genetics. All the nice looking fish that are sorted and sent to Japan, or China, or Germany, are done so according to our aesthetic specifications. Evolution did not decide that redder discus, or rounder discus, or larger discus were "better," we did. Those prized fish were siblings of plenty of smaller, duller, more ordinary looking discus. Some may have crooked bars. Some may have amber eyes instead of red eyes. Chances are their parents could have had some trait that you deem undesirable. There's absolutely no reason why breeding average quality wilds cannot yield extraordinary fish, just as it does for domestics. Will it be a large percentage of the spawn? Probably not. Would breeding two of the high-end fish sent to Japan result in a larger percentage of desirable fry? Potentially, but not necessarily. This is because the genetics of wild fish have been geared toward survival, and some of those traits may not be in line with what we'd consider beautiful or collection grade or whatever you want to call it.

As someone who's bred a huge array of South American cichlid species, I can tell you that pairing my biggest and most colorful wild fish does not always guarantee better fry, and oftentimes I cannot tell the difference in their fry versus the fry which come from a less "attractive" pair. Hell, sometimes smaller and less dominant males end up being better parents and producing nicer fry than my biggest, most colorful males. I don't doubt that larger, stronger, more colorful fish are more likely to find mates and therefore pass on their genes, as evolution intended, but I don't think it guarantees better progeny. It will always be a mixed bag. Nature will cull out those unfit to continue on (or we will, if we are responsible breeders). But more on that here...


But the fact that we get the left overs and are sold fish that are marked as a higher grade than they really are is quite irritating. Like I said earlier, what we are presented as " Selection grade " and "casual" are below average and culls compared to the fish that are sent elsewhere.

Which seller is selling culls? And what, in your mind, is a cull? When dealing with wilds, I don't think you can call smaller fish or fish with undesirable color a cull. Culls would be fish which are deformed, missing a fin or an eye, have a crooked spine, etc. Otherwise, I don't think you can accuse someone of selling "cull" wilds just because their size or color doesn't meet your expectations. If you don't agree with the grading, that's one thing. If you don't like the price, you are not obligated to buy them. But again, there's a difference between a fish that doesn't meet your expectation and a cull.


I know what the costs are and am willing to pay but yet it seems that we simply will not be sold these fish because of "better clients".

Usually it comes down to minimum orders. I spoke to a few discus exporters in Brazil and they require a minimum number of boxes. You may be willing to drop huge amounts of cash on wilds, and there may be a small handful of people like you, but overall people in this country do not want to pay what hobbyists in Asia and Europe will pay. That is why the fish are sent elsewhere. If you could find enough people to make up the minimum order for collection grade wilds like those sent abroad, you may be able to convince an exporter to send you an order. But I can almost guarantee that once people saw the pre-order price, they'd move on to cheaper fish, and it'd all fall through. I speak from experience. I have had many customers ask for "show quality" fish from Ricky Lim in Malaysia, and when I tell them his true show fish run for about $2500 they laugh at me. Either you are willing to pay it or you're not.


I am in the same boat as you when you say you prefer wilds as I have no desire to have what I consider mutated fish. Leave well enough alone, and give me what was put on the planet to enjoy, not what has been made to be more desirable by the paying customer...

You may not even realize it, but that's exactly what you're doing. You're scoffing at wild fish that were put on this planet for you to enjoy, because you can't get the supposed high quality wilds that have been made more desirable by the paying customers in Asia who create the demand for them. You've been led to believe that a certain aesthetic is higher quality or more desirable than another, and so that's what you're chasing after. ;)

Ryan

[zchauvin]

No, that is not correct. At least not in a broader sense. All "show quality" domestic fish come from spawns which also include average discus and culls. A lot of breeders do not show their breeding pairs because they're often very unremarkable and ordinary. I have seen incredible show-winning discus come from pairs where neither parent was show quality. The reason true "show quality" fish are so expensive is because out of a spawn of 100 you may have 1 or 2 which meet all the expectations of a show discus. If you could take two show quality fish and breed them, and produce all show quality discus, people would just be doing that.

Now consider wild genetics. All the nice looking fish that are sorted and sent to Japan, or China, or Germany, are done so according to our aesthetic specifications. Evolution did not decide that redder discus, or rounder discus, or larger discus were "better," we did. Those prized fish were siblings of plenty of smaller, duller, more ordinary looking discus. Some may have crooked bars. Some may have amber eyes instead of red eyes. Chances are their parents could have had some trait that you deem undesirable. There's absolutely no reason why breeding average quality wilds cannot yield extraordinary fish, just as it does for domestics. Will it be a large percentage of the spawn? Probably not. Would breeding two of the high-end fish sent to Japan result in a larger percentage of desirable fry? Potentially, but not necessarily. This is because the genetics of wild fish have been geared toward survival, and some of those traits may not be in line with what we'd consider beautiful or collection grade or whatever you want to call it.

As someone who's bred a huge array of South American cichlid species, I can tell you that pairing my biggest and most colorful wild fish does not always guarantee better fry, and oftentimes I cannot tell the difference in their fry versus the fry which come from a less "attractive" pair. Hell, sometimes smaller and less dominant males end up being better parents and producing nicer fry than my biggest, most colorful males. I don't doubt that larger, stronger, more colorful fish are more likely to find mates and therefore pass on their genes, as evolution intended, but I don't think it guarantees better progeny. It will always be a mixed bag. Nature will cull out those unfit to continue on (or we will, if we are responsible breeders). But more on that here...



Which seller is selling culls? And what, in your mind, is a cull? When dealing with wilds, I don't think you can call smaller fish or fish with undesirable color a cull. Culls would be fish which are deformed, missing a fin or an eye, have a crooked spine, etc. Otherwise, I don't think you can accuse someone of selling "cull" wilds just because their size or color doesn't meet your expectations. If you don't agree with the grading, that's one thing. If you don't like the price, you are not obligated to buy them. But again, there's a difference between a fish that doesn't meet your expectation and a cull.



Usually it comes down to minimum orders. I spoke to a few discus exporters in Brazil and they require a minimum number of boxes. You may be willing to drop huge amounts of cash on wilds, and there may be a small handful of people like you, but overall people in this country do not want to pay what hobbyists in Asia and Europe will pay. That is why the fish are sent elsewhere. If you could find enough people to make up the minimum order for collection grade wilds like those sent abroad, you may be able to convince an exporter to send you an order. But I can almost guarantee that once people saw the pre-order price, they'd move on to cheaper fish, and it'd all fall through. I speak from experience. I have had many customers ask for "show quality" fish from Ricky Lim in Malaysia, and when I tell them his true show fish run for about $2500 they laugh at me. Either you are willing to pay it or you're not.



You may not even realize it, but that's exactly what you're doing. You're scoffing at wild fish that were put on this planet for you to enjoy, because you can't get the supposed high quality wilds that have been made more desirable by the paying customers in Asia who create the demand for them. You've been led to believe that a certain aesthetic is higher quality or more desirable than another, and so that's what you're chasing after. ;)

Ryan

Without having to go back and quote each piece individually - I pay now and have a chance to get collection next year. Selection grade we are offered is not comparable to selection grade elsewhere - lower quality - it will take you less time to look up the shipment I spoke of than it did to type this. Some of the casual line we are offered look like fish you find at an lfs that have been left in bad conditions. Your comparison of me going after what I am made to desire is incorrect.

I understand that this is no more than a hobby, and that people will pay whatever they can to have the best. Same as cars, houses, watches ect. When you see what is available and what is sold to us under the same pretenses it is discouraging.

The thread started with an inquiry about a certain retailer which I'm glad I did because I was able to realize that perhaps I've never even wanted collection grade fish - but simply selection grade fish.

The story is the same - there are only x amount of collection grade fish caught for the entire season so the price is insanely high. But then, I see what goes to China and it does not add up. How is it possible that if only three or four collection grade fish are caught per year, and we are shown selection grade fish - which is supposed to be a step down from collection - that you will not find a single thread on this site regardless of seller or supplier that has a single fish with the same standard as what is sent overseas.

Anyone that can add 2+2 can make the simple observation that what we are sold does not compare to the same grade going anywhere else - even Canada. But again - as you say, the market will drive what goes where.

But let's say, collection grade are $500 - $1000 USD as I have been told by a few collectors. I've seen $500 fish sold to us, and I can tell you our $500 fish do not look anything what so ever like Asia and Europe &500 fish. How can anyone determine what our market is if we are sold the bottom of the bucket for the same price. I believe it has more to do with the fact that we as hobbyist have come to think that what we are offered as selection line is what is the standard - which could not be further from the truth. Several people here have bough $400-$600 wild fish, and knowingly or not , these fish are not at all what is the average for the price fish.

[Ryan]

I follow Vitor Hugo on Facebook and have seen his shipments to Asia. They are nice fish but he seems to also be sending shipments like that to other countries (Denmark, for example). From what he tells me, all discus are catalogued and his customers around the world are allowed to hand pick their fish. Have you asked Gabe if he can do this for you? Otherwise, I don't see anything in the China shipment that's much different from any of the other shipment pictures he's posting.

Also, I don't think Santarem grades discus the way WB Sabby does. WB Sabby sorts by selection and collection grades but the lists from Santarem aren't divided up that way?

[zchauvin]

I follow Vitor Hugo on Facebook and have seen his shipments to Asia. They are nice fish but he seems to also be sending shipments like that to other countries (Denmark, for example). From what he tells me, all discus are catalogued and his customers around the world are allowed to hand pick their fish. Have you asked Gabe if he can do this for you? Otherwise, I don't see anything in the China shipment that's much different from any of the other shipment pictures he's posting.

Also, I don't think Santarem grades discus the way WB Sabby does. WB Sabby sorts by selection and collection grades but the lists from Santarem aren't divided up that way?

Ryan you are correct he sends to other countries as well, my mention of the china shipment was due to sheer size (availability) and quality. I was also told that they were catalogued and that I would be sent a catalogue. I was sent Gabes pre order list, which again did not have anything close to the others so my interest wasn't exactly peaked, and when I asked if I could select individual fish I got no reply. Following that, I was sent a video of some half moon heckels with a simple "these are $500". Obviously someone thought I was comfortable buying just because they cost more? Anyways, I did not go through with it because the quality was nothing more than what I have seen elsewhere and having never dealt with Gabe, and mixed reviews, I decided to wait until next collection season. Perhaps they do not grade the same.

[DISCUS STU]

One would think here in the almighty US we get the best and people will pay for it, but it seems like when it comes to fish and especially these fish we just don't compare..

Does anyone remember the kinds of $$$'s people were asking and getting for premium Flowerhorns about 12 years ago? $10,000, $15,000 and up. IMO you either have to be rich, crazy or a combination of both to go for that!

[pitdogg2]

Does anyone remember the kinds of $$$'s people were asking and getting for premium Flowerhorns about 12 years ago? $10,000, $15,000 and up. IMO you either have to be rich, crazy or a combination of both to go for that!

correct and where did they come from again????? Asians were paying that kind of money

Yes I AGREE all this money is just crazy.

[zchauvin]

Ok, being that the discussion had nothing to do with Jack Wattley and the thread drew far more attention than I intended. If anyone is still following and is interested and likes to get what they pay for - which should be everyone here. I just want to say how my curiosity has gotten me very very irritated now. I followed a few links, tried my hardest to read another language, and then did some currency conversions. I just want to let everyone know it is very clear to me now, that not only are we highly overpaying for fish, but that we are not getting even close to the quality that is available at the same price. Before I beat this horse to no end, I can honestly say that every single selection grade fish that I have seen offered since I joined this site from the multiple suppliers and the multiple vendors is not at all the quality they are listed as. Ok, Im done.

OH, and of course, this is only my opinion and nothing more. Not to mention you can even sit at your computer, and select exactly which fish you want, how much better can it get!

[nikond70s]

this is why i never pre-order fish especially discus unless the vendor has them and takes actual pics. hate to pre-order with stock photo's and end up getting football shape discus lol. i know certain vendors (not here) and i know how much they pay for certain fish. in my opinion john snookn21 vendor on here has the best and prices for wild discus outta of all the vendors on here. and of course this is only my personal opinion.

[zchauvin]

I would have to agree. It is a crap shoot but I remember my first greens were $60 each and one of the five I bought was well over 7" and perfect shape ect. With what Im told compared to what is actually going on, I am to the point where I believe it better to not purchase any wilds. If the quality matches half of whats available, then I would buy.

[nikond70s]

in my opinion. a quality discus starts off by the shape. i am all about shape. colors can be improved. if i am paying anything more then $150 each. i expect the discus to have a nice round shape. i often see people with discus with nice colors but the shape is terrible. but of course to each of their own. i bought some heckels from john 2 years ago and he sent me really nice round heckels and the price was unbeatable by any other venders. i regret selling them. i see a lot of not so nice wild discus for pre-order for like $200 with bad shape and im just like lol.

[Dis82]

This same market principles go for rare and wild plecos. The best and largest ones are sent overseas. We do not see the same specimens for sale here. Goodluck in your search z, it's always good to hunt for what you want

[nolefan]

I do not buy any discus wild or tank raised sight unseen ..No pics no order .. As far as John I went to his place hand picked out the ones I wanted .. My first green discus 35 bucks in 1985

[zchauvin]

This same market principles go for rare and wild plecos. The best and largest ones are sent overseas. We do not see the same specimens for sale here. Goodluck in your search z, it's always good to hunt for what you want

Thank you. I am currently trying to contact one of the main retail in china and see if its possible to ship to me. They have 605 pages of various fish going from $72 to $1400 and you can select exactly which individual fish you want.

[Ryan]

If you're going to go through the process of getting an import license, clearing customs, and all that stuff, you may as well just import directly from the source in South America.

[zchauvin]

If you're going to go through the process of getting an import license, clearing customs, and all that stuff, you may as well just import directly from the source in South America.

If it takes all that, I'll just get some betta fish lol

If it doesn't work out, I'll try to see what can actually be done next year wilds wise and if nothing can be accomplished - I may just stay with angels or go with domestics as much as I would prefer not too. I did see the selection LL royals that mark had this season - not knowing if the fish I would be sold be nice or not I may still give it a chance. Worse case I'll just have to do it once.

[nc0gnet0]

96926

For about 4k ea, these too can be yours. Oh, but wait, you need to order at least 20 box's, good luck with your pe-order.

[zchauvin]

96926

For about 4k ea, these too can be yours. Oh, but wait, you need to order at least 20 box's, good luck with your pe-order.

Where are those $4,000 each? I ask because you may never see them here, but where I am looking fish very similar in shape and color to those are a dime a dozen and range from $285 to $600.

[nc0gnet0]

Where are those $4,000 each? I ask because you may never see them here, but where I am looking fish very similar in shape and color to those are a dime a dozen and range from $285 to $600.

Show us some pics of your dime a dozen similar fish please.

[zchauvin]

Show us some pics of your dime a dozen similar fish please.

Cannot post there pictures as I'll violate copyright.. Again. I'll give you the link but it may be removed. Go to Yulefang.net. Click on choose, and have your currency converter ready. Don't be mad when you see what you get for the same amount you pay here.

Btw, this is where the creme de la creme shipments I spoke of go to. They sell fish for $72 that we pay hundreds for.

[nc0gnet0]

Cannot post there pictures as I'll violate copyright.. Again. I'll give you the link but it may be removed. Go to Yulefang.net. Click on choose, and have your currency converter ready. Don't be mad when you see what you get for the same amount you pay here.

Btw, this is where the creme de la creme shipments I spoke of go to. They sell fish for $72 that we pay hundreds for.

Even with the translator, I can't get all the details. It "appears" to be a site of a larger wholesaler? Or is it just a listing site in which multiple sellers can post their fish? If your looking at wholesale prices I am not shocked at all. What is the minimum order? Shipping? Although I never browsed Discus prices in China, at one time I did so in Japan, Shuichi Watanabe (for a short time Kraig Koontz was getting some fish from him). I can assure you that the prices of the Wantanabe wilds started at 1.2 k and went up to 5k.

[zchauvin]

Even with the translator, I can't get all the details. It "appears" to be a site of a larger wholesaler? Or is it just a listing site in which multiple sellers can post their fish? If your looking at wholesale prices I am not shocked at all. What is the minimum order? Shipping? Although I never browsed Discus prices in China, at one time I did so in Japan, Shuichi Watanabe (for a short time Kraig Koontz was getting some fish from him). I can assure you that the prices of the Wantanabe wilds started at 1.2 k and went up to 5k.

I am going to assume this is a retailer, as santarem sends fish here and refers them to anyone inquiring about buying fish. They have fish from santarem and HK for sure did not see a WBSabby item# on any. The prices range from around 500 yuan to 12000 yuan or $77 to $1852 per fish. You have ability to select each individual fish you want. I did send an email but have no idea on shipping cost ect. I am sure it is near impossible or realistic to be able to have fish shipped from China to myself. I just wanted to see what these high quality fish that I've always considered to be collection grade are actually sold for at the destination. Yes some are very expensive but our highest grade fish we receive do not compare but to few of what yulefang offers and at 6-8x the price. From what I can tell, and see in what they have to offer, the fish we are sold here would be no more than $200 to purchase. Every fish listed that cost more than $200 or so, is far superior in color, shape, and size than what we are offered at comparable prices.

[nc0gnet0]

I am going to assume this is a retailer,


Dangerous assumption. Not to mention your missing some major details in your price comparison shopping. Ryan already pointed many of these out. Did it occur to you that the average income of a family in China is less than 10k a year?

[zchauvin]

Dangerous assumption. Not to mention your missing some major details in your price comparison shopping. Ryan already pointed many of these out. Did it occur to you that the average income of a family in China is less than 10k a year?

My issue is what we are told is the cream of the crop (other than the impossible to get collection grade of course) is merely the leftovers. And we pay the same prices.

[brewmaster15]

Zach,
What exactly are you looking for in terns of numbers of wild discus and what is the top price you will honestly pay for wild discus that meet your criteria. Lastly, what is your criteria.?

You made a statement elsewhere...

Before I beat this horse to no end, I can honestly say that every single selection grade fish that I have seen offered since I joined this site from the multiple suppliers and the multiple vendors is not at all the quality they are listed as. Ok, Im done.which though maybe your opinion is not mine and others here. There have been many many accurately graded fish sold here. If you feel strongly enough to make this statement then I think you need to at least qualify it better.

al

[brewmaster15]

Ps..Zach, I merged the other thread you started on wilds with this one as they were basically the same thing...thread title now reflects that.

al

[zchauvin]

Ps..Zach, I merged the other thread you started on wilds with this one as they were basically the same thing...thread title now reflects that.

al

Thank you Al, I'm looking for 5 fish $5000.

Al, wether is be Hudson, Hugo, or WBSabby all the fish have been the same. This has been brought up before on a particular sponsors thread. I have no clue what goes on other than people are nice enough to take the time to import fish for us. No issues with that what so ever and deeply appreciate them making them available. We have been shown Selection grade fish before, but when it comes down to what we receive, it simply does not equate to what is shown nor what is available. The company I referenced earlier has over 250 fish, all of which are selection grade, unless of course collection grade is far more available than made out to be. However, I personally have not seen a fish sold or imported to the US with even close to the same standard as far as quality in wild fish goes. I recently saw some Selection Grade LL size fish offered at $500-$600 each and saw a member post the pieces he purchased. It is very simple to see, that what he purchased in the particular grade and price point, do not compare to what is considered the same grade and same price point elsewhere. Granted, yes wild fish take time to color up, these fish have less than optimal shape, size, or pattern on the body. For the same amount of money, better fish in all three categories can be had. Whether this is a supplier issue, vendor issue, "better client " issue ect. I do not know, I would just like to be able to receive what I am paying for. Not pay for one thing, and get something lesser, which I'm sure anyone in any situation would agree with.


And if that is not enough, as I stated earlier in this thread. I directly contacted two of the three suppliers we have had send fish here and the topic is clear and the same - that they do not send the better fish here. They send them to clients and markets that get more fish. Perhaps we are still getting what is considered a selection grade fish - but it is the bottom of the barrel. It does not get more clear than when the person sending you the fish, not one but both, tell you this themselves.

For some years now, I have been trying to get collection grade fish because I knew what I saw online. I was told the price and how hard to get some I saved to be able to make it a reality. I never understood how so many nice fish were available but yet I was always told how expensive, scarce, and hard they were to get. But it is obvious now why, the fish I have wanted are not even considered collection grade fish but merely selection grade, just apparently not our selection grade.

[dadecountyalan]

Gabe is still in business? :p

ill leave that topic alone, I've already stated what I feel about him in this forum. I havent gone through all 6 pages but what I can tell you is, all of these retailers get the wild from wholesalers incredibly CHEAP. the most i've seen a wholesaler( I only know one right next to my house) sell a full grown fancy blue heckel was for 70 bucks, huge fish perfect shape. and the exporters always save the best fish until the end of the discus season and thats when all the good ones come in. If i like wilds I could easily have an amazing collection for less than alf the price of the fish I have now. But in my opinion, there is no way you can compare wilds with colorful domestics, again MY opinion. and then I hear gabe is selling wilds and crazy high prices when I know where he gets them from and how much he pays, well thats gabe for you!! lol

[brewmaster15]

Thank you Al, I'm looking for 5 fish $5000.

Al, wether is be Hudson, Hugo, or WBSabby all the fish have been the same. This has been brought up before on a particular sponsors thread. I have no clue what goes on other than people are nice enough to take the time to import fish for us. No issues with that what so ever and deeply appreciate them making them available. We have been shown Selection grade fish before, but when it comes down to what we receive, it simply does not equate to what is shown nor what is available. The company I referenced earlier has over 250 fish, all of which are selection grade, unless of course collection grade is far more available than made out to be. However, I personally have not seen a fish sold or imported to the US with even close to the same standard as far as quality in wild fish goes. I recently saw some Selection Grade LL size fish offered at $500-$600 each and saw a member post the pieces he purchased. It is very simple to see, that what he purchased in the particular grade and price point, do not compare to what is considered the same grade and same price point elsewhere. Granted, yes wild fish take time to color up, these fish have less than optimal shape, size, or pattern on the body. For the same amount of money, better fish in all three categories can be had. Whether this is a supplier issue, vendor issue, "better client " issue ect. I do not know, I would just like to be able to receive what I am paying for. Not pay for one thing, and get something lesser, which I'm sure anyone in any situation would agree with.


And if that is not enough, as I stated earlier in this thread. I directly contacted two of the three suppliers we have had send fish here and the topic is clear and the same - that they do not send the better fish here. They send them to clients and markets that get more fish. Perhaps we are still getting what is considered a selection grade fish - but it is the bottom of the barrel. It does not get more clear than when the person sending you the fish, not one but both, tell you this themselves.

For some years now, I have been trying to get collection grade fish because I knew what I saw online. I was told the price and how hard to get some I saved to be able to make it a reality. I never understood how so many nice fish were available but yet I was always told how expensive, scarce, and hard they were to get. But it is obvious now why, the fish I have wanted are not even considered collection grade fish but merely selection grade, just apparently not our selection grade.

I'm curious if you would get a different response to your inquiries if came out front and said,
"I have $5000 USD to spend on wilds...I want 5 discus.. What is the best you can send me."

I will tell you this... most people in the USA will not spend that kind of money on wilds. Even when the" Curipera "craze hit it was not common.

Understand this... if importer X even agrees to bring in $1000 discus. Do you have any idea the risk the seller takes? The exporters do not guarantee live arrival in most cases. You pay in advance, and once shipped you are on your own. If the plane is delayed, you are are out of luck. Even if you have a good arrangement, you are required to pay up front... and maybe they will make it up down the road. I've been down this road before. Its very risky. In the USA we tend to expect alot more guarantees than in some overseas countries...therefore less risk shipping there factors in.

al

[nc0gnet0]

Zach,

If your point is that the better Wild fish get sent to the Asian market, we have known that for years. No new news there. The reasons for this have been discussed ad nauseam in this thread.

Now, as for price, your conclusions are way off base. The only "proof" you offer is that of a Chinese website, to which you are not even sure if the supplier would be willing to ship such an infinitesimally small order. I challenge you to find the prices to which your whole thread is based on in any other market than China. The Chinese market as a whole is a very unique place. Many facets of the Chinese market are subsidized by the government.

Another thing worth mentioning. I know for a fact some of the Asian's hold on to their wilds for a while, grow them out and "condition" them before offering them for sale. So, when your comparing them to pictures of some of the sponsors fish here in which the wilds were just tanked mere days prior, it's really not an apples to apples comparison. Looking at the the link you provided, it would appear that this is at least partially the case, as it states many of the fish have been groomed to eat hamburger. I don't think this happens overnight with a wild.

I understand your frustration, but I am quite sure that if there was money to be made importing premium wilds in the US, someone would be doing it. Maybe if you can find 13 other people that are willing to spend 5k on 5 fish, get 14 boxes, and assume the risk should something happen in shipping, then maybe one of the importers here can accommodate you?

[Discus Origins]

Zach,

I'll put in my 2 cents. This company in China you refer to is a Santarem Client. That being said, Hugo does not grade his fish selection line or collection line...so you are comparing your eye ball test to another supplier's grading scale. I know what Hugo charges wholesale for his discus, and the prices you are listing converted to US doesn't make any sense. It costs more to import a fish in from him than to sell for the lower end prices on a 'quality' discus from a highly in demand collection location.

Second, he collects from a variety of different locations. Most of them are not highly recognized or sought after by collectors. Common areas or cheaper to travel to areas incur less expenses. For example, Cuipeua village charges every authorized person a entry fee (not cheap) and also much higher price per piece. Regardless of quality there is a minimum price for even getting one fish out of the lake.

Hugo offers a pick by picture for his fish, and there is a premium paid per fish in order to do that. So needless to say, that makes the fish even more expensive.

As for your opinion that the Selection Line fish that I have brought in are not Selection grade, I disagree as you simply do not have enough personal experience besides surfing the net to make such a claim. I have seen thousands of discus come through my tanks in the years I have been dealing with discus. And I can tell you the fish I offer are in the top 20% of all fish I have ever had. If that doesn't make them Selection Line then I don't know what you are looking for.

You are more than welcome to attempt to import 5 fish you selected from China. On top of the price for the fish, go ahead and set aside minimum of $500 for air cargo fees because minimally 100kg is charged no matter if your shipment is 10kg or 100kg (I routinely pay $1400-1600 for an 8 box shipment from Brazil), $200-400 international cargo agent fees, $185 for US Fish and Wildlife inspection, $100 for import permit, cargo broker fee $150.

At the end of the day maybe you'll end up with exactly what you want after paying the fees to import these 5 fish.

[zchauvin]

Without going back through, I agree with what everyone says.

Al, I tried that and was told I have to pay now to reserve five fish. I am contemplating doing this, but then I am not. It is hard for me to believe that I would have to pay one year in advance to get something that is so numerous. I realize the risk and why these standards of fish or these price of fish are not imported.

Ncogneto, I agree with you on all points. Clearly if demand was here someone would take advantage, obviously the fish pictured are not fresh out of the bag, and yes I have only looked at the prices of these fish - none the less I have seen comparable pictures of shipments going elsewhere just no idea on there prices.

Mark, I know all of the costs that you listed as I have already looked but thanks for making it clear you take on a paramount of cost to be able to provide what you do. I realize that everything hugo does comes at a higher premium to the buyer, something which I have already told you I am willing to pay - just not for what I have seen come in. Granted, I'm sure no one else would want to pay what I pay so you wouldn't bring any higher quality in and thats fine. I understand its a business and holding a bunch of high dollar stock that you can't sell would not keep you afloat. As for selection line, you bring in selection line that are provided to you under that grade. If you look at selection line going else where you will see they are not up to par. Which according to Ncogneto, everyone, including yourself knows and has known for years that we do not get the best fish. When you first become a sponsor here and started to import fish you said it was due to the lack of quality you saw others bringing in. I would like for you to find a fish from hudson, or santarem, or wbsabby, regardless of importer than looks better or worse than the grades you are importing. There is no difference in quality. This is nothing personal but it is clear as day that they are the same grade but not a higher quality that you had the drive to achieve.

[nc0gnet0]

Zach,

Once again, I implore you to take a look at other markets and PRICES that these fish are selling for, before you take this any further.

[zchauvin]

Zach,

Once again, I implore you to take a look at other markets and PRICES that these fish are selling for, before you take this any further.


I am thank you.

[Discus Origins]

Without going back through, I agree with what everyone says.

Al, I tried that and was told I have to pay now to reserve five fish. I am contemplating doing this, but then I am not. It is hard for me to believe that I would have to pay one year in advance to get something that is so numerous. I realize the risk and why these standards of fish or these price of fish are not imported.

Ncogneto, I agree with you on all points. Clearly if demand was here someone would take advantage, obviously the fish pictured are not fresh out of the bag, and yes I have only looked at the prices of these fish - none the less I have seen comparable pictures of shipments going elsewhere just no idea on there prices.

Mark, I know all of the costs that you listed as I have already looked but thanks for making it clear you take on a paramount of cost to be able to provide what you do. I realize that everything hugo does comes at a higher premium to the buyer, something which I have already told you I am willing to pay - just not for what I have seen come in. Granted, I'm sure no one else would want to pay what I pay so you wouldn't bring any higher quality in and thats fine. I understand its a business and holding a bunch of high dollar stock that you can't sell would not keep you afloat. As for selection line, you bring in selection line that are provided to you under that grade. If you look at selection line going else where you will see they are not up to par. Which according to Ncogneto, everyone, including yourself knows and has known for years that we do not get the best fish. When you first become a sponsor here and started to import fish you said it was due to the lack of quality you saw others bringing in. I would like for you to find a fish from hudson, or santarem, or wbsabby, regardless of importer than looks better or worse than the grades you are importing. There is no difference in quality. This is nothing personal but it is clear as day that they are the same grade but not a higher quality that you had the drive to achieve.

Zach,

I have brought in fish from Hugo, Hudson, and WBSabby....the best quality fish hands down was from WBSabby. So please don't go talking when you don't know. I saw them all first hand. I didn't ask them to send me their best fish, I asked for the best quality they had at the price point I could sell them in the US. Only WBSabby sent me fish that could be considered the same quality across the board. Hugo and Hudson sent a bunch of low quality fish with a few good quality.

As for comparing Selection Line fish, that can only be done comparing other importers of WBSabby fish. Hugo nor Hudson grade theirs Selection Line. So what are you comparing?

[Driftwood Mike]

I would like to thank everyone for sharing on this thread, sure learned a lot. Great reading, even better info, absolutely amazing fish. I guess for me, imperfection is perfection, these fish are like early Ferraris, all the handmade ones were slightly different even if they were the same models. Now, with all that being said, we have great members, sponsors, mentors, more experience than one could ever process, can you all get busy and get these great fish to breed, so we all have a chance to enjoy the journey and hopefully some we can look at everyday. Thanks again, nothing beats a great discussion!

[zchauvin]

Zach,

I have brought in fish from Hugo, Hudson, and WBSabby....the best quality fish hands down was from WBSabby. So please don't go talking when you don't know. I saw them all first hand. I didn't ask them to send me their best fish, I asked for the best quality they had at the price point I could sell them in the US. Only WBSabby sent me fish that could be considered the same quality across the board. Hugo and Hudson sent a bunch of low quality fish with a few good quality.

As for comparing Selection Line fish, that can only be done comparing other importers of WBSabby fish. Hugo nor Hudson grade theirs Selection Line. So what are you comparing?

Ok Mark, that is fair. Like I said, I do not know what you know from experience especially when dealing with suppliers. I would just like to see fish come here that are to par with what I see going elsewhere. Thats it, I am not saying that the fish sold previously through any suppliers are less than what they claim to be, only that they are less than what I see elsewhere. With no concern of cost or cost comparison, I can only see through the internet what is sent elsewhere and what is sent here. If they do not grade there fish by lines as WBsabby does, then can you inform me through pm or here what line or grade I would need to buy in order to get the quality that hudson/hugo are sending overseas or if it is simply not possible. If that is the case and no more can be done then I am completely fine with that.

Also, I have sent you a pm regarding the angelfish I purchased....

[Discus Origins]

Ok Mark, that is fair. Like I said, I do not know what you know from experience especially when dealing with suppliers. I would just like to see fish come here that are to par with what I see going elsewhere. Thats it, I am not saying that the fish sold previously through any suppliers are less than what they claim to be, only that they are less than what I see elsewhere. With no concern of cost or cost comparison, I can only see through the internet what is sent elsewhere and what is sent here. If they do not grade there fish by lines as WBsabby does, then can you inform me through pm or here what line or grade I would need to buy in order to get the quality that hudson/hugo are sending overseas or if it is simply not possible. If that is the case and no more can be done then I am completely fine with that.

Also, I have sent you a pm regarding the angelfish I purchased....

We can definitely communicate more in terms of exactly what we can try to get for you on pm. In reality you are probably only seeing the best of their shipments being posted on the Internet with the rest of lower quality sold at a discount just to recoup shipping costs.

I got your message on the Angel.

[plecocicho]

Europe my get high qulaity fish, but the prices are also high, for these 1000 euros. On the other hand, i ordered my first wilds from a retailer (which probably buys discus on the second mark),5 wilds 65 euros each and one cuipea 85euros. Some of them didnt have great shape, some had orange eyes, one was thin, but among them was this beauty http://s738.photobucket.com/user/plecocicho/media/wilds/DSC08631.jpg.html?o=4 (the bigger fish), which at the end had 18 cm total lenght and the blue striation almost covered the entire body. On the other hand one local shop sells Cameta (some with nice orange color) for 130 euros and most are thin, have bad shape, yellow eyes, etc.

[zchauvin]

Europe my get high qulaity fish, but the prices are also high, for these 1000 euros. On the other hand, i ordered my first wilds from a retailer (which probably buys discus on the second mark),5 wilds 65 euros each and one cuipea 85euros. Some of them didnt have great shape, some had orange eyes, one was thin, but among them was this beauty http://s738.photobucket.com/user/plecocicho/media/wilds/DSC08631.jpg.html?o=4 (the bigger fish), which at the end had 18 cm total lenght and the blue striation almost covered the entire body. On the other hand one local shop sells Cameta (some with nice orange color) for 130 euros and most are thin, have bad shape, yellow eyes, etc.

The end costs also depends on the retailers markup. From my experience most are around 300%. Some higher some lower.

[Second Hand Pat]

Zach, remember to factor in wholesale cost, shipping, import and related fees, losses due to shipping etc.
Pat

[zchauvin]

Zach, remember to factor in wholesale cost, shipping, import and related fees, losses due to shipping etc.
Pat

I know Pat, I just referencing what I know from working at the lfs for those few years. This is the markup after all costs included. Believe it or not, it is not very expensive to ship fish. We would get 6-8 boxes at one time airport airport for around $300. After that is allocated to the fish, a fish that ran around $100 with cost in the $350 range with a profit margin of around $225, unless of course the fish died before the sale was made. Obviously the more expensive ship took a little less allocated shipping cost so that the price retail was still competitive in the market. Before I worked there I would buy those $25-$30 angelfish, after I worked there I never purchased again. They only cost about $3 with shipping added.

Of course, allocating $300-$400 of shipping between twenty discus will add significant cost compared to allocating out between 300 random dither fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sounds like shipping was within the US.

[zchauvin]

Sounds like shipping was within the US.

Some, other was transshipment. It varied but this was average. In no correlation with anyone here or elsewhere, the markup on fish is usually comparable to furniture or jewelry.

[Ryan]

I don't know any discus sellers with markup that high, at least that I'm aware of. LFS are different than an importer in most cases. Shipping air freight from another country is NOT cheap. I really don't know where you get all your info.

On my last import order, 13 boxes cost $2200 in air freight, not to mention a $400 document fee from the airline, a $50 fee at the cargo pickup, $186 import declaration, and the fuel and time it took to drive five hours to Miami and pick up the boxes. Fish coming in from other countries must go through a designated port and be inspected by USFW/USDA/Customs. You can't just have them shipped to any airport.

Now you have to add up all those costs and divide them among all the fish in your order, then add them to the cost of the fish themselves. That's just to break even. Most of us importers would never sell anything if we had a 300% markup on top of that. Quality fish are not cheap even at wholesale prices. It's not like an LFS who buys $10 farm-raised discus and sells them for $75.

[zchauvin]

I don't know any discus sellers with markup that high, at least that I'm aware of. LFS are different than an importer in most cases. Shipping air freight from another country is NOT cheap. I really don't know where you get all your info.

On my last import order, 13 boxes cost $2200 in air freight, not to mention a $400 document fee from the airline, a $50 fee at the cargo pickup, $186 import declaration, and the fuel and time it took to drive five hours to Miami and pick up the boxes. Fish coming in from other countries must go through a designated port and be inspected by USFW/USDA/Customs. You can't just have them shipped to any airport.

Now you have to add up all those costs and divide them among all the fish in your order, then add them to the cost of the fish themselves. That's just to break even. Most of us importers would never sell anything if we had a 300% markup on top of that. Quality fish are not cheap even at wholesale prices. It's not like an LFS who buys $10 farm-raised discus and sells them for $75.

Good lord that's high and I'm not sure how you guys keep assuming I'm accusing anyone here of marking up there fish too high. My statement was solely about an lfs. People can charge whatever they want, it doesn't matter to me. I think some are interpreting my statements as being directed towards them which they aren't. I just said that the end cost of a fish can vary depending on what the person selling them marks them up. And the info I posted, REGARDING AN LFS, was obtained from working at one for two years.


If you read my post I clearly stated that a fish costing more will have less of a markup to keep the retail price down. And my post was to someone referring to different costs of different fish at two different retail stores. Had nothing to do with anything else.

[Discus Origins]

Good lord that's high and I'm not sure how you guys keep assuming I'm accusing anyone here of marking up there fish too high. My statement was solely about an lfs. People can charge whatever they want, it doesn't matter to me. I think some are interpreting my statements as being directed towards them which they aren't. I just said that the end cost of a fish can vary depending on what the person selling them marks them up. And the info I posted, REGARDING AN LFS, was obtained from working at one for two years.


If you read my post I clearly stated that a fish costing more will have less of a markup to keep the retail price down. And my post was to someone referring to different costs of different fish at two different retail stores. Had nothing to do with anything else.

Zach,

Comparing LFS shipping costs to an importer is really not the same, at the end of the day even though you are saying this is just about LFS costs you are indirectly referring to wild discus importers because that's the only sources in the US for quality wilds. I routinely ship fish from west coast to FL for my saltwater retail store front, airport to airport, for very cheap. Just like you said $200-300 domestic all day long. International shipping is a whole different animal, and I can guarantee the LFS you worked at did not direct import from a source in another country because you would have seen shipping charges for over $2000 on 8-10 boxes of fish. Transshiping may decrease the cost some, because the markup in the price of the fish to the LFS is already factored in with initial shipping costs.

I would be lucky to get anywhere close to 75% markup on any wild discus I sell, routinely I sell for less than that because otherwise the fish would be priced out of the US market. So I am already taking a chance importing these fish because at 100% markup at least the price would cover me for any DOAs that occur during shipping to customers, I don't have that luxury and lose money if losses occur.

[zchauvin]

Zach,

Comparing LFS shipping costs to an importer is really not the same, at the end of the day even though you are saying this is just about LFS costs you are indirectly referring to wild discus importers because that's the only sources in the US for quality wilds. I routinely ship fish from west coast to FL for my saltwater retail store front, airport to airport, for very cheap. Just like you said $200-300 domestic all day long. International shipping is a whole different animal, and I can guarantee the LFS you worked at did not direct import from a source in another country because you would have seen shipping charges for over $2000 on 8-10 boxes of fish. Transshiping may decrease the cost some, because the markup in the price of the fish to the LFS is already factored in with initial shipping costs.

I would be lucky to get anywhere close to 75% markup on any wild discus I sell, routinely I sell for less than that because otherwise the fish would be priced out of the US market. So I am already taking a chance importing these fish because at 100% markup at least the price would cover me for any DOAs that occur during shipping to customers, I don't have that luxury and lose money if losses occur.

Yeah, no problem Mark. Like I said I was mainly referring to the lfs I worked at and the guys who brought up different costs at different places. The markup on higher costing fish was lower like you are saying, but higher on cheaper fish, and thus kept prices competitive. No issues here with people charging what they have to in order to keep there business successful.

[nc0gnet0]

....Removed:)

[zchauvin]

Ncogneto- I would take pictures down. When I put any pictures up I was told it was copyright violation.

[Phillydubs]

What are the pics referring to? Is there some info to go along with?

[Phillydubs]

I have also been thinking, while very nice, something seems off w their face noses to me... Could just be me, my eye and inexperience... They just seem almost too round and stubby in a way...

I recall reading that these claim to be eating hamburger? Just doesn't seem so natural to me. I mean I guess feeding discus beefheart isn't natural but for domestic discus it is the norm. I suppose when I am thinking wild discus I have a certain look and behavior in mind.

Seeing as many countries oversea's like to manipulate their fish, who is to say that these aren't a year, 2 years even 3 years old and have been fed, conditioned or colored to look this way? Again, I know these are big assumptions. I guess to me knowing that I have wilds that were plucked from native waters a few weeks/months earlier and are swimming in my tank, appeals more to me than the most perfect biggest roundest specimen money can buy... with questionable husbandry in the mix...

Sorry, not to mud up a convo that already has had a bunch of twists and turns, but I thought this when reading it at first and didn't say anything but now that I see these pics again, I had to throw it out there....

[brewmaster15]

Ncogneto- I would take pictures down. When I put any pictures up I was told it was copyright violation.
done per Ricks Request.


Best to either get permission first when posting pics that you don't own, or link to where they are.

hth,
al

[zchauvin]

What are the pics referring to? Is there some info to go along with?

Pictures of fish that Hugo sent somewhere.

[zchauvin]

done per Ricks Request.


Best to either get permission first when posting pics that you don't own, or link to where they are.

hth,
al

Al, if I put up a link of where I got pictures I can upload them? It would save me quite a bit of time in Photoshop ;) I have found quite a few photos of wild fish that I'm sure any Discus lover would appreciate.

[Len]

I'd like to know where these fish eating hamburgers are coming from and if they are McDonalds hamburgers, Wendy's or what-- that would put them at a very high pricepoint.


......or did you mean they are eating ground beef? Hamburger isn't the meat, but the end result of cooked ground beef patties -- jus sayin :)

[Phillydubs]

I get the humor but it sort of skates around my initial point as to do we really know what is happening to these fish or the process from collection to end sale ?

[rickztahone]

Al, if I put up a link of where I got pictures I can upload them? It would save me quite a bit of time in Photoshop ;) I have found quite a few photos of wild fish that I'm sure any Discus lover would appreciate.

No, what Al meant was that you can include the link to where the pictures are being displayed. We cannot display photos that we do not own without the original owners permission. Al could possibly get in trouble for doing such a thing. I will remove the recently added pics due to this. I hope you understand.

[zchauvin]

No, what Al meant was that you can include the link to where the pictures are being displayed. We cannot display photos that we do not own without the original owners permission. Al could possibly get in trouble for doing such a thing. I will remove the recently added pics due to this. I hope you understand.

Ok I gotcha. So simply taking off the name doesn't work. Sorry for my ignorance, I normally just get pictures off the internet and reference them. Never really worried about the whole watermark and copyright issues, I was under impression they put it so you knew where it came from. Owell.

[nofearengineer]

Seeing as many countries oversea's like to manipulate their fish, who is to say that these aren't a year, 2 years even 3 years old and have been fed, conditioned or colored to look this way? Again, I know these are big assumptions. I guess to me knowing that I have wilds that were plucked from native waters a few weeks/months earlier and are swimming in my tank, appeals more to me than the most perfect biggest roundest specimen money can buy... with questionable husbandry in the mix...

That's my perspective, completely. While I obviously don't want unhealthy, or severely misshapen fish, I am perfectly content with some "natural" variation in wild discus. Discus breeders are talented, for sure...but they'll never make anything more spectacular than God made...the average Joe wild discus.

[zchauvin]

That's my perspective, completely. While I obviously don't want unhealthy, or severely misshapen fish, I am perfectly content with some "natural" variation in wild discus. Discus breeders are talented, for sure...but they'll never make anything more spectacular than God made...the average Joe wild discus.

Most of these fish are top of the line and very large old fish. There were also several lesser quality and younger fish. I showed fish that stuck out to myself, and were not typical fish you see. What exactly do you consider the average joe discus. Are you basing this off of what you are told or what you have been told is a certain standard? If all of your fish look like the ones I mentioned then an average joe discus would be far higher quality than someone used to buying lower end fish to begin with. It was my understanding that nature and genetics played more of a role in how a wild fish looks than the person feeding it.

[nofearengineer]

Most of these fish are top of the line and very large old fish. There were also several lesser quality and younger fish. I showed fish that stuck out to myself, and were not typical fish you see. What exactly do you consider the average joe discus. Are you basing this off of what you are told or what you have been told is a certain standard? If all of your fish look like the ones I mentioned then an average joe discus would be far higher quality than someone used to buying lower end fish to begin with. It was my understanding that nature and genetics played more of a role in how a wild fish looks than the person feeding it.

Zach, I never got to see your pictures. They were removed before I got here. :(

What I was referring to was the comments about John's fish being of "inferior quality". The disclaimer here is that I have never kept discus at all yet, so I obviously couldn't comment on the "quality" of them. I will within a month, for sure. (I've got sponge filters cycling as we speak!).

My comment was just that...as long as the wilds are healthy, they are exactly as God intended them to be, regardless of some artificial, arbitrary, man-made sensibilities as to what a discus should look like.

[zchauvin]

Zach, I never got to see your pictures. They were removed before I got here. :(

What I was referring to was the comments about John's fish being of "inferior quality". The disclaimer here is that I have never kept discus at all yet, so I obviously couldn't comment on the "quality" of them. I will within a month, for sure. (I've got sponge filters cycling as we speak!).

My comment was just that...as long as the wilds are healthy, they are exactly as God intended them to be, regardless of some artificial, arbitrary, man-made sensibilities as to what a discus should look like.

Just to be clear they weren't my pictures, I only hope some day to have fish similar in order to share photos of them. And I understand what you are saying, but I guess it's one of those cases of seeing the two compared. I'm not sure how anyone else's thought process goes but mine makes me like the better looking one. You could obviously still determine which one looks healthier and prettier to the eye without knowing any better or being told one is better than the other. Easy example would be going into an LFS and seeing those small football shaped sick fish with dull color and black bars, and then going to another lfs and seeing healthy well kept fish. From that moment on, it's in your head of what the fish should, or has the potential to look like vs the poor unhealthy ones. Ignorance on the matter or being oblivious to the possibilities would be the only real way to not make any kind of judgement or comparison on the fish.

[Phillydubs]

I am starting to feel like this convo is becoming a tail chaser!! Lol...

I suppose the end all be all is your own eye and what makes this hobby and many others appealing is that so many different people of different walks of life can enjoy it in their own way and make it work for them... There is no one strain, type or whatever you may want to toss a label on that is "right." What I may find stunning and just so amazing, someone else may see it as crap. Hell, I think even in this thread someone referred to domestic discus as mutants or mutations because of all the selective breeding... Again, an opinion and a view from that persons sight...

Again, going back to my point though is that all we are judging is the end product and no one has any idea how it got there... Someone may feel that a big round fat over grown wild with unnatural coloring due to a mcdonalds diet and enhancers is ugly, where as someone like Zach thinks thats the gold standard of wild discus and is willing to pay top dollar for it...

How many times have we seen fish being offered that are this striking yellow or red, only for the buyer to post pics a few months later and they are orange or peppered or fade to white? This happens a lot in this hobby... I mean for god sakes there are mollies at my LFS that have hearts and crap tattooed on them to make them appealing and people to buy them...

The other thing is that, as was stated, these are large old fish... Again, if we took a 3 year old full grown great fish and compared it to a young juvi or sub adult of the same strain, of course the older mature full grown fish is always going to be more appealing... That doesn't mean that with proper care and feeding the younger discus can't achieve the same or better looks...

I just feel like we have come a long way from the initial post, which don't get me wrong is cool and has been fun...

I just think the bottom line is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder... I am still having a hard time accepting that we here in the US get bottom grade wilds, when we are comparing them to older fish that could be enhanced in so many ways for all we know...

I hope that my young, fresh, new wilds someday grow big, strong and colorful as some of the ones posted, but honestly, if they stayed just as they are today, I would be just as happy and satisfied and that is all that matters at the end of the day...

[kira ken]

Hi Zach
( Sorry for my bad English)

Although I do not agree with everything you said. I must say that I share your feelings.

I'm from Colombia South America, and if you say that in the US you guys get the asia leftovers, then here in Colombia we are getting the US leftovers. For example, for a 3" domestic Asian discus by which you guys usually pay $38, down here we pay about $114. The prices goes up because the shipping rates, taxes, importer chop, etc.

it is clear for me that I would get bigger or better quality discus for the same price if i lived in the United States or Asia, but the reality is that I do not. This is how the business works, first come first serve, even on local markets, the best looking discus are selected by hand at every step of the distribution chain and on the lower parts of the distribution chain the quality will be worse and the price will go up. further up on the chain, you'll get something better for less.

Here in Colombia it is almost impossible to find selected domestic discus, much more difficult is to find regular wild discus. Although we share borders with Brazil, if we want to buy wild discus we have to buy them from the US providers. it is even difficult to find good wild discus caught in my own country because all of them are sent overseas.

At the end of the day I just try to get the best discus I could find here and be happy with them. Sometimes it is not about what you see out there, but what you can get.
Best,

[zchauvin]

Hi Zach
( Sorry for my bad English)

Although I do not agree with everything you said. I must say that I share your feelings.

I'm from Colombia South America, and if you say that in the US you guys get the asia leftovers, then here in Colombia we are getting the US leftovers. For example, for a 3" domestic Asian discus by which you guys usually pay $38, down here we pay about $114. The prices goes up because the shipping rates, taxes, importer chop, etc.

it is clear for me that I would get bigger or better quality discus for the same price if i lived in the United States or Asia, but the reality is that I do not. This is how the business works, first come first serve, even on local markets, the best looking discus are selected by hand at every step of the distribution chain and on the lower parts of the distribution chain the quality will be worse and the price will go up. further up on the chain, you'll get something better for less.

Here in Colombia it is almost impossible to find selected domestic discus, much more difficult is to find regular wild discus. Although we share borders with Brazil, if we want to buy wild discus we have to buy them from the US providers. it is even difficult to find good wild discus caught in my own country because all of them are sent overseas.

At the end of the day I just try to get the best discus I could find here and be happy with them. Sometimes it is not about what you see out there, but what you can get.
Best,

Kira, your English is good enough for me to understand. Thanks for commenting, I'm sure Altum Angel plentiful there :)

[nofearengineer]

It's so ironic to hear about it being hard to get good Discus in South America...mind blown.

[zchauvin]

It's so ironic to hear about it being hard to get good Discus in South America...mind blown.

Not sure how the laws are there, but I'm pretty sure I'd go for a swim with a bucket quite a few weekends throughout the dry season.

[nolefan]

Not sure how the laws are there, but I'm pretty sure I'd go for a swim with a bucket quite a few weekends throughout the dry season.
That jungle is very easy for a outsider to just disappear and who will go looking for you ...?? Just saying

[zchauvin]

That jungle is very easy for a outsider to just disappear and who will go looking for you ...?? Just saying

I understand the concern, thankfully I do not plan to go swimming with my bucket in the near future or ever for that matter... :)

It being hard to find nice fish that are found in the same place you live shows how much the market/money plays a role in things.

[zchauvin]

I am actually surprised that H&K, Wbsabby, and Santarem do not supply to nearby retail fronts around them or that the villagers do not simply sell to local people. Perhaps there is no demand for the fish around the area that they are harvested.

[warblad79]

It's so ironic to hear about it being hard to get good Discus in South America...mind blown.

Greedy fishermen are taking away all the good ones and sell it to rich people.

[plecocicho]

I usually keep out promotion, but one of Hugos retailer is a brasilian, so Kira ken, you could contact him.