New discus yesterday

[kiwdahc]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

One of my new fish died last night while I was sleeping and another is laying on its side. I got a total of 6 discus in yesterday ranging sizes from 2.5" to 4". They were all acting strange yesterday kind of scared but this morning are acting much better and more normal. I woke up this morning to find the smallest 2.5" albino yellow dead on the bottom. My other 3" white albino is now laying on his side on the bottom of the tank swimming around like that as well as the 4+ LSS eruption. The LSS eruption was not acting like this until after I changed the water he was perfectly fine swimming around before that. Should I be concerned about this behavior? None of this discus will eat anything I offer them as well.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

None are eating / two swimming and laying on their side.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

I have added 4TBSP of AQ salt just now.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
90 Gallon tank filled with approx 60G of water, had 6 fish now has 5, Fish ranging from 3" to 4"


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Changed 50% water last night after having them for 12 hours and 75% water this morning.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Bare bottom tank has been running for 1.5 months completely fishless cycled.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Yes I age the water for 24 hours in a brute trashcan with heater / pump to fill the tank with an auto shut off.


8. Parameters and water source;


Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ___86__

- ph __7.4 (consistently)___

- ammonia reading _0___

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __0__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __Water from tap.__

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
The only thing in the tank is new fish


10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
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[nc0gnet0]

almost has to be water related. Are you using any dechlorinator?

[Phillydubs]

I was about to ask the same as above...??

Are you sure the tank was cycled??

[Phillydubs]

Where did the fish come from?

May I ask why you did a water change after them only being in the tank such a short period?

[kiwdahc]

Yes I used dechlorinator yesterday when I started preheating the water and I changed some of the water because I tried to feed and they didn't eat it and I didn't want the food to decay all night, and this website says change 50% water change twice a day everywhere, they are from a reputable breeder on this site.

[Phillydubs]

You sure the water temps match?

The water you added was aged?

Water changes are good, but you have to let the fish settle... Think about the transport they went through to get to you... Most people, myself included, give the fish time to adjust, keep the tank dim and steady, no feeding no water changes for at least 24 hrs...

This is puzzling to me... but I agree has to be a water issues, seems your problems arise from or after a water change...

[kiwdahc]

Do you think I should pull the fish that are laying down out and try them in something else?

[Phillydubs]

Can you test your water?

What else will you put them in? If it is a water issue then doesn't matter what they are put in... do you have any aged water ready?

[nc0gnet0]

what are you using for a de-chlor?
What did you use for your fishless cycle?
is there any chance something go in the water like furniture polish, household cleaners, etc?

[kiwdahc]

I used prime for dechlor and pure ammonia for the fish less cycle. Only way I can possible even imagine anything getting into the tank is from the brute trash can, but I have had it mixing water for about 2 months on my other tank.

[Phillydubs]

Do you have an extra air stone you can add?? What type of filter? Is there enough movement on the surface and situation in the tank

[kiwdahc]

I have an extra airstone I could add but not an extra sponge filter.

[Phillydubs]

Add that now...

Where did you get the fish? you claim they looked or acted "strange" when you got them?

[kiwdahc]

They didn't act in any way that was out of the normal for new fish into new water except for the laying in the bottom of the water. I got them from one of the most respected and highest rated breeders in the marketplace section on this site I just don't want to drag anyone through the mud because I feel this is my doing and not theirs. I have been preparing to get these fish for over 10 months now and have built everything you can imagine from auto top offs / automatic water change systems / to apex controller alarms for parameters / water levels. This is why I am disappointed this is happening :/

The only thing that keeps racing through my head is maybe I didn't clean the brute trash can out enough and the chemicals its releasing aren't effecting my other tanks because they aren't as sensitive as discus. Here is a picture of the setup I have made sure to keep it covered when heating to avoid particles falling in from the air.

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[Phillydubs]

I seriously doubt that is your problem...

I recently got a new brute can and all I did was rinse it with hot water for a few times and that was that...

Seriously doubt that is your problem....

[Phillydubs]

You sure the temp is ok? 86 is rather high, go down to 82

[kiwdahc]

Reduced temp down to 82, one of the fish is looking a little better. It is almost like he is top heaving like his brain has tons of weight to it or something. Both still look like something is wrong though. I got 44 gallons of water aging right now it is at like 70 degrees so has a bit of a ways to go. Do you recommend another water change tonight?

[zchauvin]

Reduced temp down to 82, one of the fish is looking a little better. It is almost like he is top heaving like his brain has tons of weight to it or something. Both still look like something is wrong though. I got 44 gallons of water aging right now it is at like 70 degrees so has a bit of a ways to go. Do you recommend another water change tonight?

Can you test your water? If there is no ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite then it has nothing to do with your water quality. I just bought a brute, added RODI and started using it. I promise it isn't the brute can. Test your water for the big three. Temp honestly should be ok, but may make it harder for them to breathe. Dose salt 1 tbsp to 10g. Wait, and document what else happens.

Laying on side on the bottom of tank is no big deal for new fish. What were the parameters of the water they came in and the parameters of yours. Could have been osmotic shock. Once the tank cycled, did you change any water? Did you clean the tank prior to cycling with bleach or anything?

[zchauvin]

Also how did you add the fish? Did you drip or plop and drop, if you plop and drop did you temp acclimate first. Normally it is not a good idea to drip as this will keep the fish in ammonia polluted water for longer than necessary.

[kiwdahc]

The tank was thoroughly cleaned and scrubbed before cycling. Ammonia, Nitrate, and nitrite are all running 0's. When I got the fish they were in blue water so I put the bags in the tank to bring the temperates to the same. Then I emptied about 50% of their water and put 50% of the tank water in their bags and let them sit for about 30-60 minutes longer then placed them in the tank. When I went to bed last night they were all starting to come around a bit. Woke up to the white one laying on its side and swiftly changed the water with the aged water I had at about 50-75% replacement. After I did this my bigger lss eruption started laying on his side. Perhaps they are just stressed and need to be left alone?

As I watch them more and more it looks like they are having trouble balancing. The white one is improving and starts to swim upright but then falls back down to his side then seems to get discouraged and stays there. Anyone have any reference videos for what normal breathing in a discus should look like?

[zchauvin]

It will be breathing but not at a fast pace. Could be micro bubbles. How are you adding the water back to the tank? If your water is testing 0 and your temp is in the low 80s just leave them alone for a day or two and do not feed them. On Sunday feed a very small amount and see what they do. Don't sit there next to glass and watch them either, new fish need space until they realize you mean food. Feed something and step away and see if they eat. Don't feed a lot, and if they don't eat, don't rush to do a water change. Let everything be for a while. Before you feed check your water again, to see if levels are still at zero. Sounds to me like maybe micro bubbles ( never experienced this and don't really see it a possibility) or they are just stressed and trying to stay low. Are there any other fish in the tank. Is filtration only two sponge filters? If no, how much flow is in the tank. Dose Epsom salt 1 tbsp per 10g and wait a day or two.

If you buy more fish, take them out of the bags and drop them into your tank after 15 minutes of temp acclimate. The blue in the water was just a sedative, but in any case you want fish to be in clean water ASAP rather than sit in the small bag of polluted water they arrive in.

Also when you woke up, did you just flip the light on, see the fish on its side and immediately do a water change. If so, don't do that anymore.

[kiwdahc]

I am just going to let them chill for a while, I woke up saw him like that and tried to see if the rest would feed. About an hour or two later I did a water change which was earlier then I had planned.

[zchauvin]

I am just going to let them chill for a while, I woke up saw him like that and tried to see if the rest would feed. About an hour or two later I did a water change which was earlier then I had planned.

Was the light already on or did you turn it on when you woke up. Simple but important question.

What did you feed and did any of the fish eat.

How long since last water change did you test water.

I know I am asking you a lot of questions but I am trying to determine what is the problem. If you could answer to best of knowledge it would help a lot.

[kiwdahc]

The light was off and was dark for them over night. I turned the light on the tank on only to take pictures then turned it off.

I have tried feeding frozen blood worm, Frozen Beef heart, and a discus pellet, None have eaten anything.

I tested again about an hour ago which was about 6 hours after the last water change.

[zchauvin]

The light was off and was dark for them over night. I turned the light on the tank on only to take pictures then turned it off.

I have tried feeding frozen blood worm, Frozen Beef heart, and a discus pellet, None have eaten anything.

I tested again about an hour ago which was about 6 hours after the last water change.


Ok thank you. The fish laying on its side at bottom was because it was night time. They will usually be this way for a few minutes after lights are on, especially if they are new and still scared. They will try to stay along the bottom. I am not sure of any reason for the first one to die other than maybe ammonia poisoning from being in the bag for too long. Possibly osmotic shock but more than likely not.

Give them until Sunday with no water changes or food. This will not hurt them, if you would like you can drop a little bit of blood worm tomorrow and see what they do. Do not do a water change if they do not eat it. Blood worms have little to no nutritional value and will not dirty your water. Test you water tomorrow morning as well to ensure that the tank isn't going through a mini cycle. Although you shouldn't be feeding, fish produce ammonia regardless.

I had the same reaction with my wild fish in a bland tank with only sponge filters and bright light. They are fish and will adjust but it will take them a few days. Try to stay around them this weekend so that they get used to you.

[nc0gnet0]

Can you test your water? If there is no ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite then it has nothing to do with your water quality. I just bought a brute, added RODI and started using it. I promise it isn't the brute can. Test your water for the big three. Temp honestly should be ok, but may make it harder for them to breathe. Dose salt 1 tbsp to 10g. Wait, and document what else happens.

Laying on side on the bottom of tank is no big deal for new fish. What were the parameters of the water they came in and the parameters of yours. Could have been osmotic shock. Once the tank cycled, did you change any water? Did you clean the tank prior to cycling with bleach or anything?

I beg to differ. And it's not micro bubbles. The OP is aging his water. Osmotic shock? Doubtful again, the OP bought the fish locally. This is really acting like a contaminate got into the water.

[zchauvin]

I beg to differ. And it's not micro bubbles. The OP is aging his water. Osmotic shock? Doubtful again, the OP bought the fish locally. This is really acting like a contaminate got into the water.

If what he is telling us is correct, I don't see how that could be. Although the other two are highly unlikely and doubtful I do not see anything else that could be effecting the fish. He said he cleaned the tank but did not mention any chemicals. If something got into the water, the amount of water changes he has done and so frequently would have gotten rid of the contaminants.

What are your thoughts?

Ammonia burn or nitrites in the bag of water would be the only thing I could see and it effected the fish bad enough to kill it. To me all other fish would have been effected if it was something else. Other symptoms he states only make me think of new fish being shy, no more.

[nc0gnet0]

turn off the tank lights and monitor. Resist the temptation to start tossing random medications in the tank.
Is the tank bottom painted? Are you going to put a background on the tank?

[kiwdahc]

This is a dedicated bare bottom tank for my discus and I plan to have them in here for about a year. Do you think best if I paint the bottom and the background for the fish's comfort? I probably wouldn't be comfortable doing this with them in it but could get some sort of sheet that I could stick on there..

[zchauvin]

This is a dedicated bare bottom tank for my discus and I plan to have them in here for about a year. Do you think best if I paint the bottom and the background for the fish's comfort? I probably wouldn't be comfortable doing this with them in it but could get some sort of sheet that I could stick on there..

IMO, from what I have experienced with wild fish much less domestic is that you will be fine with the tank the way it is. I personally have always left my lights on and haven't followed the general rule of turning lights off as this IMO only prolongs the shyness of the fish. With my wild heckels, I left the lights on and let them be scared. After three days they were eating from my hand. Just my opinion.


It just takes time for them to adjust.

[nc0gnet0]

This is a dedicated bare bottom tank for my discus and I plan to have them in here for about a year. Do you think best if I paint the bottom and the background for the fish's comfort? I probably wouldn't be comfortable doing this with them in it but could get some sort of sheet that I could stick on there..

I re-read your post, I take back the part about getting them locally. Still, the rest remains. Ideally you would have the bottom painted prior to putting the fish in there. is the bottom of the tank accessible? New fish should always be placed in a Qt tank in a low traffic area under dim (not totally dark) lighting to allow to acclimate and recover.

What concerns me is the second fish and the fact it developed symptoms after a water change. This is not normal. Can you take a video of the fish?

[nc0gnet0]

IMO, from what I have experienced with wild fish much less domestic is that you will be fine with the tank the way it is. I personally have always left my lights on and haven't followed the general rule of turning lights off as this IMO only prolongs the shyness of the fish. With my wild heckels, I left the lights on and let them be scared. After three days they were eating from my hand. Just my opinion.


It just takes time for them to adjust.

I disagree with almost everything you have posted here, and it's not particularly good advice IMHO.

[zchauvin]

I disagree with almost everything you have posted here, and it's not particularly good advice IMHO.

Fair enough. My way might not be "the way" but it has never caused any problems. Kinda reminds me why I never posted so much, there will always be a better and more correct way of doing things. I'll keep an eye on the thread to see what I can learn from you in regards to shy fish.

[nc0gnet0]

Fair enough. My way might not be "the way" but it has never caused any problems. Kinda reminds me why I never posted so much, there will always be a better and more correct way of doing things. I'll keep an eye on the thread to see what I can learn from you in regards to shy fish.

It's not about "shy" fish. It's about stress reduction. Shipping is very stressful on fish. When you first get them, it is wise to eliminate as much stress as possible and allow them to recover. Once they have, then acclimation to reduce shyness can commence. No need to introduce stressed fish to even more stress.

[kiwdahc]

The white one has seemed to make a full recovery and is now swimming around with the school hanging out and scoializing. The larger 4" LSS is on his side still but is swimming around more and trying to get up more. Video soon to come.

[zchauvin]

How are the fish doing?

[rickztahone]

a video may be an even better option alongside the pics. If one got better, hopefully the other one will as well.

[kiwdahc]

The LSS and white discus have both gone upright. 4 of the fish I have personally seen eat great but I still have not seen the LSS eat yet. The best eaters are the red and blue one. Should I be worried I haven't seen the LSS eat yet or could he be taking nibbles when I leave. He seems to have minor indents in his side. I have this picture right now which isn't the highest quality but gives an idea of how they look. I have a video I am uploading to youtube to show his behavior to see what you guys think.

I have also noticed the red one turns from a dark beautiful red to almost white or pinkish white during water changes. I am assuming this is normal or just stress?

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[kiwdahc]

Here is the video I promised. I took this yesterday right after a water change. Does he look hungry or like he is going to starve? You can clearly see the indents in his side from this video. Is it normal for all the discus to lose their color so fast after a water change?



https://youtu.be/UWSNSyTQumw

[rickztahone]

That seems like some strong current. What filters or power heads do you have in there?

[kiwdahc]

It is only a sponge filter which you see in the beginning and another airstone which you see in the end. Someone here told me to add the air stone for some more surface agitation. The current you are seeing is from the tube at 0:17 which is refilling the tank with fresh clean water at the time. I guess this was a bad time to take a video since the water is being changed and they were not acting in their normal state. I will take another when I get home from work today.

[Larry Bugg]

You show your nitrate reading as 0? This is not normal for a cycled tank. You sure it was cycled?

[zchauvin]

It is only a sponge filter which you see in the beginning and another airstone which you see in the end. Someone here told me to add the air stone for some more surface agitation. The current you are seeing is from the tube at 0:17 which is refilling the tank with fresh clean water at the time. I guess this was a bad time to take a video since the water is being changed and they were not acting in their normal state. I will take another when I get home from work today.

I am still at a loss for why you are changing so much water? If this tank was fully cycled and you aren't overfeeding you should've done maybe one water change since you received these fish. If my math is half way decent, you have had the fish for four days.

[kiwdahc]

I have only been changing around 50% water per day except for the 2nd day I had them I didn't change any. I don't think 0 nitrate is that abnormal with as understocked as this tank is and the amount of water change i have been doing but I could be wrong, but now it is coming out more on the 0 side of 0 and 5ppm on the test.

Should I still be holding off on water changes?

[zchauvin]

How much and how often are you feeding?

[kiwdahc]

I have been feeding 4 times a day feeding blood worms at night trying to entice the LSS to eat, quantity per feeding? I am not sure maybe 4 peas worth of food. I am new to discus so any advice to get on how much to feed would help.

[zchauvin]

Unless you are feeding beef heart for any of those feedings you really don't need to do a water change every day. I don't know what you are feeding but bloodworms won't dirty your water. I don't want to give you anymore bad advice but when caring for my 4-5" wilds I would feed 4-6 times a day and do a water change everything 2-3 days. Doing one each day won't hurt anything but doing less frequently may help your fish calm down.

Do you notice anything else about the two that aren't eating yet that seems out of the normal. To me it just seems like your fish are not adjusted yet and need more time. Personally I would write the first fish off to shipping or dirty water in the bag it came in. Besides that, wether your tank would have gotten a contaminate ect, the amount of water changes you have done would have long removed it. The only other thing you can do is to check your water 24 hours after a water change. If there is no ammonia/nitrite then it isn't water quality issue ( your fish show no signs of bad water anyhow).

[rickztahone]

Consider the fact that bloodworms are really not nutritious as all. Switch to FDBW and/or a nice pellet or flake as supplement and your discus will be better for it. BH is what you want to be feeding if you want your discus to grow large. However, as Zach mentioned, with BH, you are forced to do daily water changes because it is so messy.

[zchauvin]

Consider the fact that bloodworms are really not nutritious as all. Switch to FDBW and/or a nice pellet or flake as supplement and your discus will be better for it. BH is what you want to be feeding if you want your discus to grow large. However, as Zach mentioned, with BH, you are forced to do daily water changes because it is so messy.

I may be wrong here, but a cleaner food to start would allow for less water changes and allow the fish to settle followed by getting them onto the grow out method of high feedings with messier foods and then his frequent large waterchanges.

Thinking this would really help to ease the fish?

[rickztahone]

I may be wrong here, but a cleaner food to start would allow for less water changes and allow the fish to settle followed by getting them onto the grow out method of high feedings with messier foods and then his frequent large waterchanges.

Thinking this would really help to ease the fish?

Yes, but the problem with bloodworms is that when discus start on that food, they will have a hard time getting off it. It is better to start with some FDBW's because they are all around better and they aren't messy at all so long as you feed it in an upside down cone.

[zchauvin]

Yes, but the problem with bloodworms is that when discus start on that food, they will have a hard time getting off it. It is better to start with some FDBW's because they are all around better and they aren't messy at all so long as you feed it in an upside down cone.

Oh trust me, I remember that with my first tefe green. By clean I meant anything but beef heart lol.

[kiwdahc]

Thanks guys, I am feeding beef heart 2 times a day in the middle of the day which I usually do a water change after the second because there is debris left over from it. Do you guys have any advice for a quality flake? I got some new life spectrum discus pellets but they won't even look at them when I drop them in. Now when I walk into the room they all come running to the front though because they know I bring the food. I appreciate all the help guys as I know I am an amateur with discus.

[kiwdahc]

I just waited 34 hours since last water change and tested all parameters. Nitrates are at 5-10ppm but the weird thing was the ammonia had a slight greenish tint to the yellow which would lead me to believe there is some in there as all the last tests were pure yellow and I know what an ammonia free tank looks like.

Do you guys think it is possible there is not enough bb in there? Could this be ammonia waiting to transition to nitrates? I would assume with how much water I have been changing I would be fine even with a completely uncycled tank but what is the best course of action with this new information in hand?

[Phillydubs]

I would just keep up on those water changes... What additives are you using again? Could be getting some slight or false readings from that?

If I were in your boat I would keep up w the water changes no matter what was being fed. There is no such thing as too many water changes especially in your current state...

If you are going to feed BH, do what you are doing and change the water shortly after they eat that...

[kiwdahc]

Ok so the consensus seems to be when feeding beef heart do daily water changes but worms can maybe go every other day. Does anyone have an exact regimen of what to feed / times per day for growing out 3-4" discus? I just want about 5-6" discus not looking for perfection or anything.

[Phillydubs]

If you are trying to grow discus out and do it right... then you should be doing daily water changes no matter what you feed, but if you want to bulk them up and really grow them right they should be getting beefheart daily and I believe most growing out discus feed a good amount of times some say 3 some say 5-6...and they vary their foods accordingly... Someone else who grows fish out could chime in and give you a more regimented feeding structure...

Could you go a day in-between water changes sure, but if you have the time and can do it I would keep up w/ the daily water changes for as long as you can or until they reach that 5" plus mark, then you can scale back slightly if need be.

[zchauvin]

Less water changes would only be right when you get your fish to not stress them too much. If they aren't eating which most don't right when you get them then there is no reason for more water changes. Two sponge filters should be sufficient for what fish you have, but something doesn't add up. When cycling a tank with pure ammonia or other sources, you should be able to dose 2ppm ammonia and it be undetectable after 24hrs. Granted I believe you said you are using a 90g with only 50% water so 45g? That is rather small amount of water volume to try and grow fish the size you have. Once all fish are eating I would recommend beef heart 2x or more a day, the same with FDBW or high protein pellets and leave the bloodworms in the freezer. If you have ammonia after 34hrs then keep doing large daily water changes. At the end of one day test water, if there is ammonia present then do 2x daily water changes. Be sure if your dumping beef heart into the tank that you siphon any extra out after about fifteen minutes.


Them coming meet you is a good sign, as I had mentioned they were still just stressed and new. Now that they are eating feed multiple times a day and do your large water change. If one is not enough, do 80% twice a day. Could even drain water until the are on sides and refill.

I would test tap water before adding prime just to be sure you don't have ammonia in source, but prime can also give a false ammonia reading with API test kits.

[kiwdahc]

I have about 60 gallons filled out of the 90 gallon tank. Do you know a good source for the freeze dried black worms?

Thanks

[zchauvin]

I have about 60 gallons filled out of the 90 gallon tank. Do you know a good source for the freeze dried black worms?

Thanks

Aquatic suppliers here in the sponsor area.

[rickztahone]

Thanks guys, I am feeding beef heart 2 times a day in the middle of the day which I usually do a water change after the second because there is debris left over from it. Do you guys have any advice for a quality flake? I got some new life spectrum discus pellets but they won't even look at them when I drop them in. Now when I walk into the room they all come running to the front though because they know I bring the food. I appreciate all the help guys as I know I am an amateur with discus.
http://inlandempirediscus.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=55


I have about 60 gallons filled out of the 90 gallon tank. Do you know a good source for the freeze dried black worms?

Thanks

http://www.aquaticsuppliers.com/Freeze-Dried-Blackworms_c2.htm

[Phillydubs]

Al, the owner of this forum, go to his page and get them direct. Good stuff, fish crack as most say!

[Phillydubs]

Geez I need to get better at refreshing before I respond!

[kiwdahc]

Looks like rickthazone called it perfectly. The discus I had eating the frozen blood worms will now not eat the frozen beef heart mix. Should I just keep throwing beefheart at them until they get hungry enough to eat it? The Neon Sapphire and Fiamma Rossa literally devour anything I throw into the tank and come running every time I come into the room. But the other smaller ones seems to have become more picky. This seems to be the opposite of what I have read saying the small ones want to eat more often and the bigger ones sometimes eat left often.

[rickztahone]

Looks like rickthazone called it perfectly. The discus I had eating the frozen blood worms will now not eat the frozen beef heart mix. Should I just keep throwing beefheart at them until they get hungry enough to eat it? The Neon Sapphire and Fiamma Rossa literally devour anything I throw into the tank and come running every time I come into the room. But the other smaller ones seems to have become more picky. This seems to be the opposite of what I have read saying the small ones want to eat more often and the bigger ones sometimes eat left often.

Stop offering the blood worms and keep feeding other foods. Keep siphoning out any uneaten food after 15 minutes until they eat.