fry lying on their side

[monching]

Good day gurus of the forum. Just want to ask if this is normal? Being my first batch that I believe will no longer be eaten. I'm a little bit worried. They are now 9 days old and been noticing lately that they will lay on their sides in the bottom of the tank like resting and will swim back to papa after a while. Is this normal or are they in some sort of problem?
please advice.

Thanks and God bless,
Ramon

[zchauvin]

[QUOTE=monching;1211307]Good day gurus of the forum. Just want to ask if this is normal? Being my first batch that I believe will no longer be eaten. I'm a little bit worried. They are now 9 days old and been noticing lately that they will lay on their sides in the bottom of the tank like resting and will swim back to papa after a while. Is this normal or are they in some sort of problem?
please advice.

Thanks and God bless,
Ramon[/QUOT.

[alcastro]

That's not normal, you need to provide more information ontheir tank an such

[monching]

That's not normal, you need to provide more information ontheir tank an such
Thanks for the input alcastro. Water parameters are all normal. Frys are healthy and growing fast. Belly always full, all are lively. There's just this time when the papa is in the bottom part of the tank (fins touching the glass) they will all (and I mean all)detaches from the papa and will lay in the bottom (just like taking a rest after each meal). Soon after they will all attach to papa again. Do you think I need to worry?

[nc0gnet0]

Thanks for the input alcastro. Water parameters are all normal. Frys are healthy and growing fast. Belly always full, all are lively. There's just this time when the papa is in the bottom part of the tank (fins touching the glass) they will all (and I mean all)detaches from the papa and will lay in the bottom (just like taking a rest after each meal). Soon after they will all attach to papa again. Do you think I need to worry?

As long as the fry are not laying on their sides I think it is fine. 9 days old is a bit young to start seeing belly sliders. Can you show us a picture?

[monching]

As long as the fry are not laying on their sides I think it is fine. 9 days old is a bit young to start seeing belly sliders. Can you show us a picture?

What is the meaning of belly slide? And yes they're laying on their sides.

[nc0gnet0]

picture is worth a thousand words.

[monching]

picture is worth a thousand words.
I still need to catch them doing that bro. So we need to wait. Right now they are all with papa.

[nc0gnet0]

Belly sliders are when the swim bladder on a young fish fails to inflate. As a result they cannot maintain buoyancy, and rest on the bottom on their sides. I have not however seen this condition manifest itself at 9 days. Belly sliders are culls.

[monching]

Belly sliders are when the swim bladder on a young fish fails to inflate. As a result they cannot maintain buoyancy, and rest on the bottom on their sides. I have not however seen this condition manifest itself at 9 days. Belly sliders are culls.
Ohh....okay, thanks for the info. I hope mine are not. They are always with daddy everytime daddy swims or move up. It is just when the dad is in the bottom of the tank is when they will detach and rest in the glass in the aquarium floor.

[Akili]

I have seen mine detach from the parents and all huddle up on the breeding cone and swim back and forth.

[monching]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/20160422_232519_zpsecjy8wzu.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/monching44/media/20160422_232519_zpsecjy8wzu.jpg.html)

here are some that I caught resting in the bottom every time papa goes down too but will soon attach again if papa swims away. There are times that they are all detach from the papa. This happens every time papa is in the bottom but if he is on the top part or swimming about, babies are all attached.

[nc0gnet0]

Interesting, can't say I have ever seen fry of that size laying on their sides. I do notice that the two that are have very full belly's. I wouldn't worry too much just yet. How big is the batch?

[monching]

I had about 60++ but mama ate about a 3rd of the batch before I noticed it. Took her out and left papa take care of the frys. I have about 40++ left.

[LizStreithorst]

I've never seen anything quite like that either. All you can do is wait and see.

[CliffsDiscus]

Are you feeding BBS too(notice some orange in the stomach), it look like a digestive health problem. Some Epsom Salt may help.


Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

Shells from the BBS? Is that what you're thinking, Cliff? Those few with the huge tummies don't look right.

[CliffsDiscus]

QUOTE=LizStreithorst;1211428]Shells from the BBS? Is that what you're thinking, Cliff? Those few with the huge tummies don't look right.[/QUOTE]

Hi Liz,
Yes and no but sometime shells will get stuck in the stomach and the fry can't digest, also the bbs might be too large to digest(hatching time too long). Only suggestion would be to shorten hatching time(small BBS) and add a pinch of Epsom Salt when
hatching the BBS.

Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

Good suggestion. I didn't have a clue. Something ain't right, that's for sure. But since the kids get back up and swim normally it can't be anything terrible. It's a brain teaser for sure.

[CliffsDiscus]

I'm taking a second look at the batch of fry and there are some that have a bent spinal and one badder problem. The male is a good parent and doesn't cull out
the deformed babies, which was probably what the female did.

Cliff

[monching]

Update:
All bad, fry starts to drop and die one by one on the 10th day onward, been taking dead fry every morning, last count to be 51, have about 15 remaining. 50% WC twice a day with aged water. Water parameter all normal. Just don't know what causes them to just drop and die. There are a few that I monitored that detached from the papa and huddle in one top corner and never attach to the papa again for 3 days until they die. Just noticed that the papa is breathing in just one gill so I suspect the cause to be gill fluke but not in anyway sure about it. Back to the drawing board for me.

[nc0gnet0]

What is your water change routine, how often are you wiping down the tank, and are you cleaning your sponge regularly? My guess is not flukes at all, but with beginner's, many have a tendency to overfeed BBS in relation to the amount and frequency of water changes.

[monching]

What is your water change routine, how often are you wiping down the tank, and are you cleaning your sponge regularly? My guess is not flukes at all, but with beginner's, many have a tendency to overfeed BBS in relation to the amount and frequency of water changes.

50%WC twice a day with aged water.

[Akili]

Ramon,what is the pH of aged water and pH of the tank and is the water change with regular water or R.O. mix?

[nc0gnet0]

50%WC twice a day with aged water.

how often are you wiping down the tank, and are you cleaning your sponge regularly?

[monching]

It was all a fresh set, yes i do all of those. What I can't understand is as soon as they reach a certain size, they'll just detach looking like they're disoriented. It's always the biggest one who will die. Smaller ones follows as soon as they reach that certain size. Those that are left are the smallest ones of the batch but then again like what i've said, as soon as they grow a little bit bigger they will detach from the dad and will die soon after.:(

[DISCUS STU]

Give it some time. More may be revealed. Are you sure the nitrites are normal? Strange behavior.

[monching]

Give it some time. More may be revealed. Are you sure the nitrites are normal? Strange behavior.

Just checked my water parameters again this morning.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/20160429_103947_zps4k4oivmb.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/monching44/media/20160429_103947_zps4k4oivmb.jpg.html)

noticed my PH level shoots up this morning.

[monching]

Ramon,what is the pH of aged water and pH of the tank and is the water change with regular water or R.O. mix?

No RO Akili just aged water, just noticed my PH a little bit higher than normal, the city must have added something in the water again. It happens every change of season and now being one. Still in the learning curve man.

[Akili]

No RO Akili just aged water, just noticed my PH a little bit higher than normal, the city must have added something in the water again. It happens every change of season and now being one. Still in the learning curve man.Changing water of lower pH in the tank to higher pH of aged water should not be a problem but temperature difference could.Something I found on the web may interest you............. http://tgvas.com/Forum/showthread.php?9203-discus-fry-dying

[DISCUS STU]

Regarding bbs. I've raised a few hatches now using the frozen Hikari bbs very successfully. Much less work for me to feed this temporary transitional food until they're able to accept prepared foods.

Having done both live bbs and the frozen I don't see a noticeable difference in the results. Hope I haven't upset anyone's apple cart!

Ramon I hope it works out better for you on the second go around. While set back like this can be frustrating it's definitely worth effort.

[Ryan]

It's very odd to see this thread here now, because I have severum fry doing the exact same thing and I've never seen it in all the years I've raised severums. I've spawned thousands. And this one particular species has bred six times for me since last spring, and every batch does this. I raise them just like I raise every other cichlid fry -- BBS, bare bottom tanks, daily water changes with aged, heated water, etc. This is the only species I've ever encountered this issue on. I spoke to Al this morning and he also suggested that either they were eating too much brine, or needed smaller brine, or maybe even that they require something other than brine (obviously with discus we know brine works, so that's not applicable here).

Mine hatch normally and start eating, but around 1 week free-swimming they start to lie down and then I notice a few dead every day until they're all gone. They will hover at the bottom and lie on their sides, but when I feed they will go upright and eat. Then it's right back to the bottom and lying down again. I also notice them flashing/itching like they have flukes, even though I have pretty much ruled this out. Just like you observed, it's the largest ones that die.

I put the wild parents through a battery of treatments for parasites and worms when I imported them, I've tried treating the unhatched eggs with formalin to sterilize the tank, I've basically tried everything I can think of except adjusting the water pH/hardness and temperature, and trying other food sources.

If you ever figure it out, I'd love to know. Maybe we are both doing something that is resulting in similar issues with our fry.

[DISCUS STU]

I'd like to know also. I've lost about half of my latest hatch, similar issue though they were much further along. Some scratching, breathing heavily. Don't think it's flukes. The other half or a little less about 20 or so, has survived though they have a tendency to breath heavily but this may be slightly high nitrites. I think these are the stronger ones. I didn't have this issue before.

I removed the best ones to a separate tank and treated with Metro and Paraguard (Seachem) for general bacterial issues and returned them back to the parents after about 8 days of this. Only about four survived with the parents. Now the whole family is reunited and all is well, and apparently healthy.

[monching]

It's very odd to see this thread here now, because I have severum fry doing the exact same thing and I've never seen it in all the years I've raised severums. I've spawned thousands. And this one particular species has bred six times for me since last spring, and every batch does this. I raise them just like I raise every other cichlid fry -- BBS, bare bottom tanks, daily water changes with aged, heated water, etc. This is the only species I've ever encountered this issue on. I spoke to Al this morning and he also suggested that either they were eating too much brine, or needed smaller brine, or maybe even that they require something other than brine (obviously with discus we know brine works, so that's not applicable here).

Mine hatch normally and start eating, but around 1 week free-swimming they start to lie down and then I notice a few dead every day until they're all gone. They will hover at the bottom and lie on their sides, but when I feed they will go upright and eat. Then it's right back to the bottom and lying down again. I also notice them flashing/itching like they have flukes, even though I have pretty much ruled this out. Just like you observed, it's the largest ones that die.

I put the wild parents through a battery of treatments for parasites and worms when I imported them, I've tried treating the unhatched eggs with formalin to sterilize the tank, I've basically tried everything I can think of except adjusting the water pH/hardness and temperature, and trying other food sources.

If you ever figure it out, I'd love to know. Maybe we are both doing something that is resulting in similar issues with our fry.

I would love to know and get to the bottom of this if given a chance. One thing though, mine started doing it before I even introduced them to brine shrimp.

[Ryan]

I would love to know and get to the bottom of this if given a chance. One thing though, mine started doing it before I even introduced them to brine shrimp.

That's odd. So maybe it's not food-related at all.

[Kyla]

would be interesting to see if uv sterilization helped?

[Akili]

That's odd. So maybe it's not food-related at all.Is it possible that it could be leaching of chemicals from the aging barrel or minerals in the tap water.The amounts may not be affecting the adults but the fry.

[Kyla]

in another post to someone with fry issues john mentioned getting the fry checked by a fish pathologist might help rule some things out, maybe thats worth a shot?

[monching]

Is it possible that it could be leaching of chemicals from the aging barrel or minerals in the tap water.The amounts may not be affecting the adults but the fry.

I haven't thought of this but very possible, my container where I age my water for them is not food grade and most of the time I will use the hot water straight from the top and just let it cool down. Maybe the hot water helped in the leaching out process. Anyway I just ordered a HOME ll 5 stage RO system from aqua-safe and will be picking up 2 -55 gal. Food grade barrels tomorrow. This set back just made me more determine in having a successful spawn that I can raise to adulthood.

[Akili]

I haven't thought of this but very possible, my container where I age my water for them is not food grade and most of the time I will use the hot water straight from the top and just let it cool down. Maybe the hot water helped in the leaching out process. Anyway I just ordered a HOME ll 5 stage RO system from aqua-safe and will be picking up 2 -55 gal. Food grade barrels tomorrow. This set back just made me more determined in having a successful spawn that I can raise to adulthood.Some 20 years ago,one of the hobbyist I know decided to heat his R.O reservoir with electric element from a water heater.Soon afterwards he was losing fry just like you.Since he had salvaged the element from old water heater,the protective coating of chromium oxide was leaching.It took almost three months before he figured that that was the cause.

[monching]

Some 20 years ago,one of the hobbyist I know decided to heat his R.O reservoir with electric element from a water heater.Soon afterwards he was losing fry just like you.Since he had salvaged the element from old water heater,the protective coating of chromium oxide was leaching.It took almost three months before he figured that that was the cause.
Thanks for the info Akili:thumbsup: much appreciated.

[Ryan]

In my case that's not the issue -- I filter all my water through a two-stage system I built and age it overnight in a glass 55 gallon tank with a normal tank heater and sponge filters. So I essentially pump from one tank to another. What drives me crazy is that I've raised other batches of fry alongside these and those fry are fine. I'm going to pull all my hair out.

[monching]

Update:
It's been a month now and 90% of the fry died. I have 7 remaining fry out of the batch that made it. They are now in their own 10 gal. tank and I started breeding the pair again. This is my observation, when Akili said something about leaching chemicals from the aging container, I stop filling it with hot tap water and instead put just cold water. I will just put a heater 2 hours before WC and everything went smoothly after that. I've waited a week to see if the 7 remaining will suffer the same faith as the others but looking how voracious and healthy they are now, I think there's a big chance they will make it. So maybe it is the hot water on a not food grade aging container that did it. Same routine whatsoever, i didn't do anything different just from hot to cold water. I now have a 55 gal food grade barrel to age my water and will see what will happen next time around. Wish me luck.

[Akili]

Update: Wish me luck.Ramon My best wishes for your future spawns,keep an eye on that water.Both you and I have the same source of water. Lake Ontario

[alcastro]

Just a thought, I had that problem with my fry, I pp ones every three days for a total of three treatments and they where ok, so I ran pp through my two stage filter system in a loop in my water storage drum, have not had that problem again for the last two batches.

[monching]

Just a thought, I had that problem with my fry, I pp ones every three days for a total of three treatments and they where ok, so I ran pp through my two stage filter system in a loop in my water storage drum, have not had that problem again for the last two batches.
How do you do the dosage per gallon?

[LizStreithorst]

I know that their is a formula but Kenny once told me that he does it by color. You want the tank a deep pink but not quite purple. I do it his way and have had no problems. It's best to sit there and watch the fish for the first few treatments so if they show signs of distress you can naturalize the PP with dechorinator or H2O2.

[CliffsDiscus]

I know that their is a formula but Kenny once told me that he does it by color. You want the tank a deep pink but not quite purple. I do it his way and have had no problems. It's best to sit there and watch the fish for the first few treatments so if they show signs of distress you can naturalize the PP with dechorinator or H2O2.

Liz,
You might be on the right track, but it is probably a combination of diseases and water management. The problem is common with breeders ever since.
as far back as I can remember in the 1980s. Since the disease is from the slime on the parents its easy to transfer to the offsprings.

[alcastro]

Liz,
You might be on the right track, but it is probably a combination of diseases and water management. The problem is common with breeders ever since.
as far back as I can remember in the 1980s. Since the disease is from the slime on the parents its easy to transfer to the offsprings.
True

[warblad79]

How about sterilize the pair using PP bath to shed few layers of slime coat and bleach the tank prior to breeding them. That way parents don't carry all the bad stuff

[CliffsDiscus]

How about sterilize the pair using PP bath to shed few layers of slime coat and bleach the tank prior to breeding them. That way parents don't carry all the bad stuff

Warblad,
Excellent thought, many hobbyist had the same thought with some success, they also not only medicate external but also internal disease. Since the babies
were still eating directly from the parents they still were infected. So the next generation had to be medicated with PP when neccessary.

Here are couple of other way to get around this life of Discus disease.

1. Removal of fry under one week, feed San Francisco Bay Brand baby Brine Shrimp.

2. Remove the eggs one hour after spawning, have clean pair raise the fry.

3. Artifically raise, no internal and external disease as long as the offspring
are not mixed into the infected Discus. Throw away the PP and enjoy your Discus.

[monching]

The Survivors......
Didn't do anything special, just stopped putting hot water in a non food grade container and everything went normal, unfortunately it's a little bit too late as I got 7 left from the batch of about 80 so 90% died. Charge it to experience as they say. On the brighter side...I have about 30++ fry on it's 5th day of free swimming, hope this will be a success. Wish me luck.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/Mobile%20Uploads/th_the%20survivors_zpsjjfr95cx.mp4 (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/Mobile%20Uploads/the%20survivors_zpsjjfr95cx.mp4)

My New Frys:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/Mobile%20Uploads/th_2nd%20batch%20red%20whites_zpsqp7j2oiy.mp4 (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k233/monching44/Mobile%20Uploads/2nd%20batch%20red%20whites_zpsqp7j2oiy.mp4)