Seachem Pristine

[afriend]

I've been using a relatively new product from Seachem called "Pristine" Here's a quote from their web-site:


"Pristine™ uses bio-augmentation, a non-chemical and natural method, to improve water quality. It provides bacteria that break down excess food, waste and detritus in freshwater and marine systems. It will also reduce excess nutrients (e.g. ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites) that may fuel the growth of nuisance and disease-causing organisms. Pristine™ increases water clarity and promotes overall better health for the aquatic environment.

The bacteria species in Pristine™ thrive in fresh or salt water and can utilize a wide range of organic compounds, including fats that can cause unsightly films. Unlike traditional nitrifying bacteria, this bacterial blend can adapt to harsh or low oxygen environments and continue to multiply and improve water conditions. Biopolymers produced by established bacterial colonies trap particulates and increase water clarity.

The species of bacteria in Pristine™ are a unique blend, specifically developed for hardiness and their ability to adapt to a wide variety of environmental conditions."

I'm very sceptical about claims like this, but since it was from Seachem, I gave it a try. I'm happy to report that it really does help to keep the tank clean, especially the filters and tubing. One of the attributes of the product is that you only have to use it for a short period until the bacteria is established. (About a week or two.) Thus the cost factor is minimal. I believe that this product is especially beneficial for show tanks and anytime sand or gravel substrates are used.

In my case, I noticed a reduction in the accumulation of feces, a reduction in the material trapped in the mechanical filter, and a reduction in the slime buildup in the tubing. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are always zero in my tank, so there were no changes for me.

Anyone else have any experience with this product?

Paul

[rickztahone]

Cool stuff Paul. I had never heard of the product. TFS

[discuspaul]

If the Seachem claims for this product have any degree of veracity, then it's use in combination with Seachem's Purigen would seem to be a double-barreled water quality enhancer.

[afriend]

Cool stuff Paul. I had never heard of the product. TFS

It's a relatively new product, and I'm very impressed with the results obtained with it. As you know, I have developed a filtration system that greatly reduces the amount of maintenance required to keep the tank clean, and I'm always looking for ways to improve it. Even though the system I have is extremely good at doing so, the use of Pristine makes a noticeable improvement, especially the mechanical filters and the plastic tubing that carries the water.

I wonder if the use of this product could eliminate the crap that accumulates in a gravel substrate to the degree that one could have gravel without detriment to discus. Would be interesting to find out, but for now I'll stick to my bare bottom tank. Anyhow, if I did have gravel, I would definitely give it a try. Perhaps it could change the way we keep discus.in a show tank.

Paul

[afriend]

If the Seachem claims for this product have any degree of veracity, then it's use in combination with Seachem's Purigen would seem to be a double-barreled water quality enhancer.

Yes, exactly. That's what I'm doing.

I think that they work in a different way however, but I'm just guessing at this. Sure would like to see the chemical equations for how Pristine functions. I'm wondering what the by-products are. From the Seachem description I would assume that Pristine does not involve nitrification ending up with nitrate.

What I can say for certain is that the proper use of both products (Pristine and Purigen) results in a tank that always looks as if it were just cleaned yesterday. The key words above are "proper use" because other considerations must be taken into account to get the results that I have obtained.

Paul

[DJW]

Paul, thanks for bringing attention to it, I had not heard of it before. I have two tanks with shallow sand (actually Caribsea Torpedo Beach) and I'm always a little dissatisfied with the stuff that accumulates there, so I will give it a try and look for any improvement.

It appears to be a blend of facultative bacteria, which are those that can switch their functioning to either aerobic or anaerobic metabolism.

[afriend]

Paul, thanks for bringing attention to it, I had not heard of it before. I have two tanks with shallow sand (actually Caribsea Torpedo Beach) and I'm always a little dissatisfied with the stuff that accumulates there, so I will give it a try and look for any improvement.

It appears to be a blend of facultative bacteria, which are those that can switch their functioning to either aerobic or anaerobic metabolism.

Dan,

I hope you know more about this process than I do. What I would like to know is what kind of chemical by-products are formed and if they are harmful. Thanks for your input.

Please let us know what results you get. If I were to guess, I would give it a month or two.

Paul

[DJW]

I don't know for sure, but I expect the end products would be similar to those of the bacteria normally present in the tank and filter. My concern, if I have one, would be that if the fish are biologically unfamiliar with these bacteria, while being otherwise harmless they can trigger an immune response, which is a stressor. Or the bacteria might be ubiquitous in aquatic environments and thus benign... we just don't know.

We could ask Seachem if they used Discus or wild-caught fish in their trials.

I agree it will need several weeks to make an assessment; it sounds like a biofilm will be forming in the filter and substrate if any.

[Filip]

Thanks for sharing the info on this new product Paul .
Its sure worth to give it a try given the brand name that stands behind.

Dan , Seachem have very professional customer service and they will be glad to answer any question regarding the use of their products.
So its worth to give it a try and ask the product compatibility with discus immune system or any other potential issues with discus.

[afriend]

Flip,

I agree with you completely about the Seachem name. I have used their products for sometime now and have visited the online forum where their techs answer questions. I'll ask them about the compatibility of the bacteria in Pristine and the immune system of discus. Good suggestion, thanks. However, it has been shut down now for sometime so I'll have to wait.

Paul

[Filip]

Flip,

I agree with you completely about the Seachem name. I have used their products for sometime now and have visited the online forum where their techs answer questions. I'll ask them about the compatibility of the bacteria in Pristine and the immune system of discus. Good suggestion, thanks. However, it has been shut down now for sometime so I'll have to wait.

Paul

Please share their feedback with us here if you do contact them Paul .

[afriend]

Thanks for sharing the info on this new product Paul .
Its sure worth to give it a try given the brand name that stands behind.

Dan , Seachem have very professional customer service and they will be glad to answer any question regarding the use of their products.
So its worth to give it a try and ask the product compatibility with discus immune system or any other potential issues with discus.

Filip, Dan, Paul, and Rick,

I sent Seachem an email this morning (Sunday) and they responded this afternoon (WOW). Here's their response:

"Thank you for your email. There are no by products to the product itself. That being said, Pristine is a bacterial additive and will take solid organic waste and convert it to dissolved organics that can be either a) removed from your system through chemical filtration or b) removed from your system via aerobic and anaerobic bacterial means."

This is really good news, no by-products to be concerned about. Besides a) and b) above, there are two additional methods to remove dissolved organics: Purigen (absorbs organic compounds), and water exchange (since they are dissolved). Depending on how efficient Pristine is at converting solid organic waste into dissolved organics, this offers the potential to revolutionize discus husbandry. Purigen and Pristine together (when used properly along with water exchange) has the potential to ELIMINATE algae, nitrate, and drastically reduce organic material in substrate and the water column. Imagine having a show tank without algae or slime buildup where the feces and uneaten food were removed automatically by a drip water exchange system. This could potentially allow the use of gravel substrate, and at the same time, resulting in extremely healthy water conditions.

I've been using Purigen (in a reactor) for about three years now, and I can state unequivocally that Purigen is EXTREMELY effective at absorbing dissolved organic material. If Pristine turns out to be a product as good as Purigen, then perhaps tank maintenance could be reduced dramatically, and at the same time result in extremely healthy water (maybe even better than 100% daily exchange). Perhaps it might even be possible to accomplish this with less water exchange as well.

Something to think about. What are your thoughts?

Paul

[discuspaul]

I would like to believe that all of your positive commentary will come to pass just as you have opined.
Even if Pristine falls somewhat short of all these expectations, in my view it would still prove to be a desirable product for improving water quality, particularly when used in concert with the adsorption capacities of Purigen.
I'm planning to give it a try when I can find it in my area, and make a good stab at gauging the results.
Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Paul.

[Filip]

Filip, Dan, Paul, and Rick,

I sent Seachem an email this morning (Sunday) and they responded this afternoon (WOW). Here's their response:

"Thank you for your email. There are no by products to the product itself. That being said, Pristine is a bacterial additive and will take solid organic waste and convert it to dissolved organics that can be either a) removed from your system through chemical filtration or b) removed from your system via aerobic and anaerobic bacterial means."

This is really good news, no by-products to be concerned about. Besides a) and b) above, there are two additional methods to remove dissolved organics: Purigen (absorbs organic compounds), and water exchange (since they are dissolved). Depending on how efficient Pristine is at converting solid organic waste into dissolved organics, this offers the potential to revolutionize discus husbandry. Purigen and Pristine together (when used properly along with water exchange) has the potential to ELIMINATE algae, nitrate, and drastically reduce organic material in substrate and the water column. Imagine having a show tank without algae or slime buildup where the feces and uneaten food were removed automatically by a drip water exchange system. This could potentially allow the use of gravel substrate, and at the same time, resulting in extremely healthy water conditions.

I've been using Purigen (in a reactor) for about three years now, and I can state unequivocally that Purigen is EXTREMELY effective at absorbing dissolved organic material. If Pristine turns out to be a product as good as Purigen, then perhaps tank maintenance could be reduced dramatically, and at the same time result in extremely healthy water (maybe even better than 100% daily exchange). Perhaps it might even be possible to accomplish this with less water exchange as well.

Something to think about. What are your thoughts?

Paul

Thanks for sharing this info. with us Paul.
I will for sure give it a try once it hits the shelves in my LFS. I trust Seachem and belive that it will do the job described by manufacturer.
They forgot the best option in their answer , the option c)
WCs do the best removal of previously decomposed materials.

For me this product is even more useful than purigen because the hardest part of my planted tank maintenance are not the WCs themselves , but the glass wipeing, sand disturbing, plant leaves shakeing and prefilter cleaning.And this product is claimed to help this out.
As I understand it litteraly melts the solid debris, crud and biofilm in watrer collumn and thus makes them an easy removal via WC .

[jim LI]

and I just removed all the gravel in my tank to go bare bottom. I should have read this thread earlier. Thanks for the info. I am always looking to improve the quality of my tank. It will make me going to sand bottom later on easier on my stress level.

thanks

[rickztahone]

Can this product be used with a reactor? Paul, do you use Purigen in a reactor or by way of other means?

[discuspaul]

Can this product be used with a reactor? Paul, do you use Purigen in a reactor or by way of other means?

You were probably referring this question to the other Paul, however I'd like to mention that I don't use Purigen in a reactor, but I'd like to try it, since I feel quite sure the adsorption capability would be significantly greater with the Purigen beads moving around constantly, rather than sitting static.

However, Pristine seems to be a totally different product with the bacteria slowly but steadily breaking down the evident wastes, and I can't imagine a reactor helping that to occur more effectively.

[afriend]

Can this product be used with a reactor? Paul, do you use Purigen in a reactor or by way of other means?

Pristine is not used in a reactor, it is introduced directly into the tank and the bacteria reside in the water column, substrate, and the biological filter.

I use Purigen in a custom made reactor. Seachem sells Purigen in loose form or in a bag that is placed in the path of water movement. The loose form is cheaper than the bag form. Also, the bag tends to compact the Purigen beads and blocks water flow thru it.

Here's a link to details on my reactor:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108891-Getting-the-WOW-Affect-with-Allot-Less-Work-Design-and-Servicing-the-Purigen-Reactor

Here's a link to my complete filtration system:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122462-Part-4-The-Filtration-System

Here's a link to how my filtration system functions:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122468-Part-5-How-the-Filtration-System-Functions

Also contained in one of the links above is a description of how to modify a HOB reactor to hold Purigen.

Hope this is helpful.

Paul

[afriend]

You were probably referring this question to the other Paul, however I'd like to mention that I don't use Purigen in a reactor, but I'd like to try it, since I feel quite sure the adsorption capability would be significantly greater with the Purigen beads moving around constantly, rather than sitting static.

However, Pristine seems to be a totally different product with the bacteria slowly but steadily breaking down the evident wastes, and I can't imagine a reactor helping that to occur more effectively.

You are correct about the use of Purigen in a reactor. When I first tried using Purigen I purchased the bag form and placed it in the path of moving water. After a couple of weeks, I carefully cut the bag open to examine the Purigen beads. Purigen turns dark as it absorbs organic material. It was obvious by examining the beads that the water was channeled such that only a small portion of the beads were coming into contact with the water. I would guess that loose Purigen in a reactor is at least 10 times more effective.

Paul

[Poppa Ryno]

I was talking about this with a friend and pointed me to this. Says they seem to be identical products. Ill have to check both these out. Thank you for posting afriend.

[Poppa Ryno]

Sorry link didnt load last post
http://www.aquavitro.com/products/remediation.html
Is the identical product i was speaking of.

[rickztahone]

You were probably referring this question to the other Paul, however I'd like to mention that I don't use Purigen in a reactor, but I'd like to try it, since I feel quite sure the adsorption capability would be significantly greater with the Purigen beads moving around constantly, rather than sitting static.

However, Pristine seems to be a totally different product with the bacteria slowly but steadily breaking down the evident wastes, and I can't imagine a reactor helping that to occur more effectively.
Thanks Paul :)


Pristine is not used in a reactor, it is introduced directly into the tank and the bacteria reside in the water column, substrate, and the biological filter.

I use Purigen in a custom made reactor. Seachem sells Purigen in loose form or in a bag that is placed in the path of water movement. The loose form is cheaper than the bag form. Also, the bag tends to compact the Purigen beads and blocks water flow thru it.

Here's a link to details on my reactor:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108891-Getting-the-WOW-Affect-with-Allot-Less-Work-Design-and-Servicing-the-Purigen-Reactor

Here's a link to my complete filtration system:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122462-Part-4-The-Filtration-System

Here's a link to how my filtration system functions:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122468-Part-5-How-the-Filtration-System-Functions

Also contained in one of the links above is a description of how to modify a HOB reactor to hold Purigen.

Hope this is helpful.

Paul
Good info. So, since it is a liquid and not an actual mass item, then it can be dosed via dosing pump? In conjunction with a purigen reactor, that may be a very valid approach to clean water.

I have a spare reactor lying around that I may give the purigen a crack. Don't know much about it so will have to research it further. With me thinking about switching over this discus tank to sand/DW, it is good to know that I may have something as an aid on top of my WC's.

[bamzam]

I wonder...how would this affect planted tanks and the nutrients that waste provides? I like the idea of less slime in my tubes...

[discuspaul]

Sorry link didnt load last post
http://www.aquavitro.com/products/remediation.html
Is the identical product i was speaking of.


Yup - sounds like exactly the same type of product as Seachem's Pristine.

[warblad79]

I wonder if this product are the same as those overly hype Pure Aquarium Balls, I remembered people went nuts buying those stuff and actually I tried them myself but didn't notice any difference instead I change more water and my routine. The results are way better

[rickztahone]

I wonder if this product are the same as those overly hype Pure Aquarium Balls, I remembered people went nuts buying those stuff and actually I tried them myself but didn't notice any difference instead I change more water and my routine. The results are way better

One thing I will say is that I also got some of these bio balls and I felt they actually worked with my cycle. I think everyone's mileage will vary, but for me, it was worth the try.

[DJW]

Yup - sounds like exactly the same type of product as Seachem's Pristine.

I think Aquivitro and Seachem are the same company.

[Poppa Ryno]

Aquavitro is indeed a division of seachem

[jim LI]

This is just an FYI from SEACHEM

Pristine works well with all of our products and filter medias. It is simply beneficial bacteria that helps to breakdown large detritus in the aquarium, as well as, provide bacteria for your biological filter. If you do 60% water changes daily, it would not hurt to add a dose of Pristine several times a week after the water change. Especially if you are cleaning the filter. Any time you do maintenance on the filter, you are potentially disturbing the beneficial bacteria, so adding Pristine will compensate for that.

[DJW]

I think this stuff is worth a try, but the skeptic in me has the following questions:

If the main reason we strive to keep our tanks clean is to keep low the numbers of bacteria that are feasting on detritus, wouldn't it be counterproductive to add bacteria? After all, it is not the detritus itself that is a problem, but the bacteria that are decomposing it. Or are the bacteria in Pristine somehow different-- do they displace more harmful types?

And a well-established tank that has anaerobic pockets (substrate) should already have colonies of facultative anaerobes.

[Poppa Ryno]

If i understand the "augmented bacteria" thing right. Its the same idea as a stem cell research is wanting to do only with bacteria. The bacteria is undecided until its needed. Then it goes aerobic or anaerobic depending on the job it needs to do. Then it will assign itself the proper role.

[afriend]

I think this stuff is worth a try, but the skeptic in me has the following questions:

If the main reason we strive to keep our tanks clean is to keep low the numbers of bacteria that are feasting on detritus, wouldn't it be counterproductive to add bacteria? After all, it is not the detritus itself that is a problem, but the bacteria that are decomposing it. Or are the bacteria in Pristine somehow different-- do they displace more harmful types?

And a well-established tank that has anaerobic pockets (substrate) should already have colonies of facultative anaerobes.

There are a multitude of different strains of bacteria, some are beneficial while others are harmful. For example the type that are in the biological filter of your aquarium are very beneficial because they process ammonia (which is toxic to your fish) first into nitrite and then into nitrate that is removed with water exchange. These types of bacteria do not harm your fish in any way.

Discus do not have a very strong immune system, so the objective is to reduce the number pathogens (bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus) existing in the aquarium. One way to accomplish this is to reduce the available food supply of the pathogens. The food supply exists in two forms: uneaten fish food and feces. That's why tank maintenance is important.

The bacteria in Pristine is of the beneficial type. They do not displace harmful types, but they are beneficial because they reduce the food source by making the food dissolve into the water column where it can be removed by water exchange.

Paul

[afriend]

This is just an FYI from SEACHEM

Pristine works well with all of our products and filter medias. It is simply beneficial bacteria that helps to breakdown large detritus in the aquarium, as well as, provide bacteria for your biological filter. If you do 60% water changes daily, it would not hurt to add a dose of Pristine several times a week after the water change. Especially if you are cleaning the filter. Any time you do maintenance on the filter, you are potentially disturbing the beneficial bacteria, so adding Pristine will compensate for that.

Jim,

Thanks for your input. The way I have implemented my filtration system is to have a stand-alone biological filter in a canister containing Seachem matrix. Tank water circulation first flows into a mechanical filter (25 micron pleated filter) and then into a separate dedicated biological filter, also contained in a canister. With this setup the biological filter is left undisturbed for at least two years, while the mechanical filter is serviced much more often.

It appears that the bacteria in Pristine become established quickly (just a few days). Of course some of the bacteria in the mechanical filter are removed when it is serviced, but the ones remaining in the biological filter will quickly reestablish the ones removed when the mechanical filter is cleaned. Thus I don't think that I will have to add Pristine several times a week after cleaning the mechanical filter. At least this is my theory, I'll find out as I get more experienced as time goes by.

Paul

[afriend]

If i understand the "augmented bacteria" thing right. Its the same idea as a stem cell research is wanting to do only with bacteria. The bacteria is undecided until its needed. Then it goes aerobic or anaerobic depending on the job it needs to do. Then it will assign itself the proper role.

While I understand aerobic and anaerobic processes, I have no idea what you mean by the rest of your statement. Could you please explain this somewhat?

Paul

[Poppa Ryno]

I was making an analogy towards stem cells. Where they are a blank cell that gets its instructions from other cells or are augmented to become a a certain cell as become introduced to their new environment. As i said "if i understand it right" (which i may very well not) the bacteria is augmented to a blank slate and can become aerobic or anaerobic depending on surrounding bacterial roles.

[DJW]

There are a multitude of different strains of bacteria, some are beneficial while others are harmful. For example the type that are in the biological filter of your aquarium are very beneficial because they process ammonia (which is toxic to your fish) first into nitrite and then into nitrate that is removed with water exchange. These types of bacteria do not harm your fish in any way.

Discus do not have a very strong immune system, so the objective is to reduce the number pathogens (bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus) existing in the aquarium. One way to accomplish this is to reduce the available food supply of the pathogens. The food supply exists in two forms: uneaten fish food and feces. That's why tank maintenance is important.

The bacteria in Pristine is of the beneficial type. They do not displace harmful types, but they are beneficial because they reduce the food source by making the food dissolve into the water column where it can be removed by water exchange.

Paul

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

[afriend]

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

I have no personal knowledge if they are or could be harmful to discus. However they are marketed by Seachem which is a very respected company and I have confidence in their ability to produce a new product. I do know that they perform research based on science before introducing a new product. So what I am saying is that I am relying on their reputation to produce a new product that will not harm my fish.

Paul

[Kyla]

is this product along the lines of the rid-x type of probiotics ive read about ppl adding to their aquariums? eg the same kind of bacteria ppl seed in their septic fields?

[yogi]

is this product along the lines of the rid-x type of probiotics ive read about ppl adding to their aquariums? eg the same kind of bacteria ppl seed in their septic fields?

After reading this thread about Pristine I did some searches on google and the answer is yes. I found that rid-x would work out cheaper, but is not marketed to aquarium use like some people are using it. I could not find Pristine locally so I mail ordered it. I really hope it reduces the slime that grows on the propellers in my filters.

[Filip]

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

This is a good question Dan, but I doubt somebody could answer it.
My reasoning would be that they are completely different type of bacteria from bacteria's we discus keepers desperately trying to remove via wipeing, siphoning and WC-ing.
And I was always wondering , but never find answer about an actual name or genus of bacterias we try to remove and that compromises discus immune system.
And I have read articles in the past about measuring their numbers in water column and on discus slime coat, but never an actual name .
Who are we fighting against here ???

[DJW]

I don't know either. Bacteria are hard to identify unless you have a lab. About the most a hobbyist could do is determine whether an infectious bacteria is gram positive or negative, which can help in deciding which antibiotic to use. And even then the fish might be dead before you had the answer.

If you look at the bacteria that cause anthrax under a microscope, you can't tell it apart from some of the harmless germs that normally live in our intestines.

As I understand it, a bacteria in the water doesn't have to be pathogenic to be harmful to a sensitive fish like Discus. It could work like an allergy, where the immune system overreacts to the presence of something that would otherwise not be harmful. But I am only guessing.

I think Willie (aka 'Coconuts') is a microbiologist. He might be able to help with this question.

[afriend]

What I would like to do with this thread now is to explain the background behind why I think that Pristine could possibly change the way discus are kept, especially in a show tank with adult discus. About three years ago I began developing a new type of filtration system. At least I think it's new because I haven't found it anywhere else on the internet. The details of this filtration system are explained on my Homestead page here at Simply Discus (included are lots of pictures and diagrams showing how to build the system and how it functions):

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas

Here is a listing of the attributes of the system:

1) Pristine crystal clear water.
2) Elimination of algae (even with the lights on 24/7).
3) Elimination of nitrate (bright yellow using API test kit).
4) Automatic removal of feces and uneaten food (no siphoning required).
5) Pristine clean glass and decorative items (no wiping required ).
6) Healthy bilogically clean water free from organic compounds (suspended or dissolved).
7) No tank maintenance for at least one month, other than daily water exchange which can be automated.

The biggest drawback of my existing system is that it is not easy to implement and is expensive to build. However, since Pristine became available, I think that it may be possible to substantially reduce the cost and complexity of the system. Here's why: attribute #4 above is the most difficult and expensive to achieve because it requires a low TDS (about 80 ppm or less) and a very large amount of tank water circulation in order to get the ueaten food and feces to dissolve. Seachem claims that "Pristine is a bacterial additive and will take solid organic waste and convert it to dissolved organics ....." If Pristine can achieve this in an efficient way, then perhaps the equipment (RO pump and tank, bubble lift tubes, large circulation pump, and large external mechanical filter) may not be necessary.

What I have accomplished thus far with Pristine is to demonstrate that the addition of the product does in fact improve the results in my existing tank and system by cleaning up the tubing that carries the water and reducing the amount of detritus in the pleated mechanical filter. Now what I am considering is to modify my existing system to see if all of the attributes above can be achieved without the need for the additional equipment thus making my system less expensive and easier to implement.

Would appreciate inputs with comments, ideas or encouragement.

Paul

[ksuyen]

Thanks for sharing this. I have trust in Seachem products (Prime and Purigen are excellent), and though Pristine is not yet available here, I will try it when they come.

I use similiar products made by another excellent company Continuum, it's called Bacter Clean.F. In case someone interested for the alternative, here is a little description.


Bacter Clean•F is a unique freshwater microbial culture and enzyme product specifically designed to target and clean surfaces of live plants, driftwood, decorations, rocks and tank walls, removing stains, loosening and softening debris for easy vacuuming and providing a cleaner, more pristine environment. It will outcompete unwanted substances and loosen the grip of ugly accumulations and coatings making their removal by scraping or vacuuming easy. Its exclusive bacterial formula does much of the work for you, to help provide the beautiful freshwater or planted aquarium you have always wanted. It will also rapidly breakdown organic waste, leftover food, debris and detritus in freshwater aquariums, providing essential water quality improvement.

link: http://www.continuumaquatics.com/freshwater_wc/bacter_cleanf.php

[Filip]

@ksuyen this seems to be the same product description like pristine.
Since you have already used it , did you notice any improvements in less slime building on glass, or less crud and debris in the sandbed?
Didi you notice any visible results?

[ksuyen]

Actually I just started using it. I did notice a considerably amount of pristine clear water in the first week, despite the mess after feeding you usually see. I am not sure about Seachem product, but Continuum Bacter Clean requires at least 1 bottle cup per 10 gallon, or 6 cups in my case, to start with. And you do need to maintain the minimum dosage after that for a while. I believe once the bacteria settles at one point, you can stop dosing it though. I am in my second week now and yet to see any improvements in less slime building on glass, but there are a lot more debris on the ground than before. I suspect they came off from the woods, roots, leaves, rocks, etc.

[Filip]

@ksuyien , thanks for the input.
If you notice any further results in future , please update this thread.

[chuckiesmalls]

really interesting discussion.

I trust seachem. I know I have heard some questionable things about discus buffer but my experiences so far with all seachem products I've used Safe and Prime, Stability and paraguard have been quality products. I think it sometimes comes down to how well you follow instructions....possibly...

I have a 100 gallon with 16 juvies growing out, bare bottom, 4 medium sponge filters, 2 HOB AC 110s with just sponge and ceramics in them, one AC has some matrix. I do 80% WCs daily from tap after adding prime and do several detritus siphonings daily. I will throw extra WCs in here and there maybe 1-3Xs a week too. I also have a Powerhead (stays on 24/7) on one end of the tank and do weekly tank wipe downs on all surfaces..

Without pristine, I would say my build up is pretty minimal and with the several siphonings, almost non-existent but my Nitrates still hover around 5 PPM, I would like less if possible without disturbing the discus of course.

I just started feeding BH regularly this week and plan on using it more along with seafood mixes bc I just bought a grinder. :D This should overall add to my bio-load. SO testing this product now as I begin to feed more BH should be a good testing period I feel.

I will keep you posted on how I feel about the product as I just added the first batch (10 capfuls) yesterday after WC.

[seanyuki]

When u are changing water daily from 50-100%.....why waste money on that product.

[chuckiesmalls]

When u are changing water daily from 50-100%.....why waste money on that product.

I am novice but I believe from what I understand of beneficial bacteria colonies is that they will develop in the sponge filters and other filter media I have vs...just existing in the water column

I hope this is so....

[afriend]

When u are changing water daily from 50-100%.....why waste money on that product.

Good question. The answer is quite simple:

Creates a healthier environment for my fish.

and

It greatly reduces the amount of work to maintain it.

and

It keeps the tank and water pristine clean.

Paul

[seanyuki]

IMO .....rinse the filter media periodically providing you hv sponge filters or hob filters running at the same time.....rinse either one of them....so you still hv beneficial becteria in yr filter.....siphon the waste during yr water change.....yr discus will show signs when they are not happy.....I just a hobbyist.

[Clawhammer]

This product could be beneficial, especially for those who aren't doing BB tanks. Coming from planted tanks where biological filters are stressed over wc's, it definitely intrigues me. I also have built up a lot of respect for Seachem's products and support, so I was willing to drop $10.

I keep many planted tanks, and one in particular needed some help. During my last few weeks as a discus newbie, my nano tank got algae outbreak as I have been distracted. Busy, I just went for a blackout thinking my otos did not eat this particular type of algae. I was wrong when I discovered the massive amount of oto poop a few days ago upon doing my weekly maintenance. I did a gravel vac and dropped in the Pristine. I have to say, a little over two days later the is really no visible detritus anymore. I am interested to see if this has any effect on the algae in the longer term.

[chuckiesmalls]

just wanted to report back as I have recently completed using a bottle of pristine.

Do I think it works..yes...but most likely much more for those that do not do as many water changes or have planted tanks.

I feel it keeps fecal material o a minimum by breaking it up faster so it can be processed/caught by the filter.

[Filip]

just wanted to report back as I have recently completed using a bottle of pristine.

Do I think it works..yes...but most likely much more for those that do not do as many water changes or have planted tanks.

I feel it keeps fecal material o a minimum by breaking it up faster so it can be processed/caught by the filter.

Yes that is the main purpose of this product .
It is supposed to be Bio-bacteria that speeds up the process of decomposition of sludge, gunk , oraganics and even the bio film on the water surface .
It is suposed to helps keeping the substrate /sand in display tanks clean along with keeping the glass , decor, plants off the slime and surface off the protein film.
This should keep the bad bacteria buildup(diseases) in check .
And yes i also agree it should be useless in daily maintained BB growout tanks.Its a common sense , after reading the product info.

[yogi]

I have also used a bottle of this stuff. Looking at my tanks I see no difference. Here is where I see the difference. I squeeze my sponge filters out at least once per week when I do water changes. The sponges seem to have more dirt but are easier to squeeze. So the stuff is doing something.

[Ryan925]

Filip, Dan, Paul, and Rick,

I sent Seachem an email this morning (Sunday) and they responded this afternoon (WOW). Here's their response:

"Thank you for your email. There are no by products to the product itself. That being said, Pristine is a bacterial additive and will take solid organic waste and convert it to dissolved organics that can be either a) removed from your system through chemical filtration or b) removed from your system via aerobic and anaerobic bacterial means."

This is really good news, no by-products to be concerned about. Besides a) and b) above, there are two additional methods to remove dissolved organics: Purigen (absorbs organic compounds), and water exchange (since they are dissolved). Depending on how efficient Pristine is at converting solid organic waste into dissolved organics, this offers the potential to revolutionize discus husbandry. Purigen and Pristine together (when used properly along with water exchange) has the potential to ELIMINATE algae, nitrate, and drastically reduce organic material in substrate and the water column. Imagine having a show tank without algae or slime buildup where the feces and uneaten food were removed automatically by a drip water exchange system. This could potentially allow the use of gravel substrate, and at the same time, resulting in extremely healthy water conditions.

I've been using Purigen (in a reactor) for about three years now, and I can state unequivocally that Purigen is EXTREMELY effective at absorbing dissolved organic material. If Pristine turns out to be a product as good as Purigen, then perhaps tank maintenance could be reduced dramatically, and at the same time result in extremely healthy water (maybe even better than 100% daily exchange). Perhaps it might even be possible to accomplish this with less water exchange as well.

Something to think about. What are your thoughts?

Paul



Hi Paul what reactor are you using for your purigen?

I have searched all over the Internet and have not come across one that anyone says works with purigen. I typically put mine in "the bag" in one of my media trays but would love to use it in a reactor.

[Beestie]

I'm trying it out at the moment. On my discus tank I don't see a difference but on my arowana tank I do. The white fluff on the glass doesn't build up anymore and the fluff that was there is gone now. This is after 2 weeks of use so it does seem to help with a tank that has a big bioload.

[Ryan925]

I just received my bottle of pristine from Amazon. The directions aren't entirely clear. Are you guys dosing after each wc or is it one start-up dose then anytime cleaning filter?

[Rapture]

Bought some recently, waiting for it to arrive. My goal is cleaner plumbing from the tank to the sump. I use clear tubing so I will be able to see if it has an effect on it or not.

[Davidzil]

What's the dosing schedule with Pristine?

[Ryan925]

What's the dosing schedule with Pristine?

I'm wondering same thing

[Willie]

I do 100% water changes every day. Once a week, during the water change, I scrubbed down every surface in the tank and squeeze the heck out of my sponge filters. Never have I ever had a loss of cycle as a result of water changes or cleaning the sponges.

As a Ph.D. microbiologist, I can assure you than nothing in a shelf stable bottle is helping you with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycling. The description is marketing hype without a single scientific statement. I have worked with many bacterial cultures during my Ph.D. work and the idea that you can keep viable cultures in a bottle of water is ludicrous.

It's ironic that the product is called Pristine. As many of the old hands are telling you, we're extremely conservative in what we put into discus tanks. I put in water and food, nothing else - so the water is pristine. I recommend that you don't use Pristine for a week and see if the fish behave any differently.

As long as you're doing all those water changes, I think you'll be successful.

Good luck, Willie

[DJW]

Viable or not, we are talking about two different kinds of bacteria and we shouldn't confuse one with the other.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

[Filip]

Viable or not, we are talking about two different kinds of bacteria and we shouldn't confuse one with the other.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

Great reading and good point Dan .
Informative as always with your links all around :-) .

P.s. pristine is mix of heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria.
They can survive without oxigen , even be reintroduced and active in water after their surface area was dried out for a prolonged period of time.

[Filip]

I'm wondering same thing

Its on the bottle . 5 ml per 10 g. As an initial startup dose and than half of that dose with every big filter clean up or new bioload addition.

[Davidzil]

Thank you Filip

[monilovesdiscus]

Interesting product - I just sent them an email as I wanted to know if this bacteria would be impacted by PraziPro. I occasionally get a Discus who may have a worm or two [live foods? blood worms? who knows] so I wanted to know if it would be impacted.

[Filip]

Interesting product - I just sent them an email as I wanted to know if this bacteria would be impacted by PraziPro. I occasionally get a Discus who may have a worm or two [live foods? blood worms? who knows] so I wanted to know if it would be impacted.

Nice question Mony. Please share your answer here .
Since heterotrophic bacteria are much more resilient than the autotrophs such as our bennificial bacteria I'm guessing that most of the meds wouldn't be able to harm them.
Praziquantell is known to be friendly even on the BB in our Bio filter materials.

[monilovesdiscus]

Boy, they are fast! Here's what they sent me:

Monica,

Thank you for your email. The strains of bacteria we use typically are more resilient to medications, however it is possible for older or weak bacteria to be compromised during a treatment. That said, you can still dose with a bacterial additive such as Pristine to boost the bacterial load during and/or after medicating with little to no loss of the newer bacteria.

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!

Product Support 102086

[Ryan925]

Boy, they are fast! Here's what they sent me:

Monica,

Thank you for your email. The strains of bacteria we use typically are more resilient to medications, however it is possible for older or weak bacteria to be compromised during a treatment. That said, you can still dose with a bacterial additive such as Pristine to boost the bacterial load during and/or after medicating with little to no loss of the newer bacteria.

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!

Product Support 102086

I've always found seachem to have great customer service

[Davidzil]

Would Pristine be of help when adding fish to the current load?

[DJW]

No. Daily water changes if you are making a significant increase in biolaod. The filter will catch up after several days. If you use a bacterial additive it needs to be the nitrifying bacteria - not Pristine, which is different.

[Davidzil]

Got it, thanks

[s2002]

Hi guys,

I called Seachem today to ask about a dosing schedule and wanted to share the results in case it is helpful.

I told Seachem support that I have a fully stocked 60 gallon Discus tank (7 discus) and that I do water change 3 times a week of about 75% each time. I also use Purigen and Stability in my tanks.

The support lady (who sounds very knowledgeable) told me that I should do a maintenance dose of Stability after each water change, and do a maintenance dose of Pristine once a week.

She said Pristine is more for cosmetics (making the tank look nice) while Stability is more about keeping your tank healthy for your fish.

[Mariowa]

I've been using a relatively new product from Seachem called "Pristine"

In my case, I noticed a reduction in the accumulation of feces, a reduction in the material trapped in the mechanical filter, and a reduction in the slime buildup in the tubing. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are always zero in my tank, so there were no changes for me.


Paul

Can you please tell how long did you use the "Pristine" until you saw the results mentioned above?

Thank you

[afriend]

Can you please tell how long did you use the "Pristine" until you saw the results mentioned above?

Thank you

Between one and two weeks.

Paul

[SPYDER813]

I have been using Pristine for over a month on my Discus tank and works great. I have gravel and I use it once a week, keeping my gravel clean and most of the fish poops almost disappear. Now, I'm trying Purigen on my filter to see how works.

[Davidzil]

So what are the pluses for using Pristine and Stability on regular basis, if you have an established tank?

[Barleysoda]

So what are the pluses for using Pristine and Stability on regular basis, if you have an established tank?

You're wallet will be easier to sit on.

[afriend]

So what are the pluses for using Pristine and Stability on regular basis, if you have an established tank?

I use Purigen and Pristine, and do not use Stability on a regular basis. They are both an essential part of my filtration system. Here is a list of the benefits that I have achieved:


1) Pristine crystal clear water.
2) Elimination of algae (even with the lights on 24/7).
3) Elimination of nitrate (bright yellow using API test kit).
4) Automatic removal of feces and uneaten food (no siphoning required).
5) Pristine clean glass and decorative items (no wiping required ).
6) Healthy bilogically clean water free from organic compounds (suspended or dissolved).
7) No tank maintenance for at least one month, other than daily water exchange which is fully automated.

The cost of the Pristine is insignificant. A one liter bottle lasts me about 3 years

Hope this is helpful.

Paul

[CammieTime]

How do you know you are not seeing the placebo effect? A healthy bacterial load in your tank will make fish poop and other things go away after establishing itself in a couple of weeks time.

[afriend]

How do you know you are not seeing the placebo effect? A healthy bacterial load in your tank will make fish poop and other things go away after establishing itself in a couple of weeks time.

Because I know why and how the complete filtration system functions. All of this is explained in great detail at my Homestead page. Please refer to the stickies at the top of the Homestead page. Here is the link:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas

Would be glad to discuss this and answer any questions that you might have.

Paul