Looking for input on planned setup

[RMB]

I used to keep a lot of fish, up to 25 tanks at once. Then I got into dart frogs, and that's a whole different story... Now I'm getting back into the fish hobby and I've decided to specialize a bit more than before, where I'd just pick up anything that interested me. Reading about discus and setting them up, I've tried to come up with the best system for maintaining and breeding them that I reasonably could, and I'd like to build it all at once rather than add a tank here and a sump there, etc. I have a dedicated room in my house with outlets galore, insulation, and a floor drain, and 9' ceilings. So here's my plan. I welcome any input from those of you who have set up similar systems or just have a better idea how to go about keeping discus.

100604

Sorry about the poor scan quality. To explain: Each pair of 60 gallon tanks and sump is separate for disease control. Heaters aren’t shown, but I’m thinking they’ll be in the sump and the rightmost tank of the top row. Also not shown, obviously are the stands, and I might add in an algae scrubber or azola/duckweed or pothos. Lighting will probably be DIY LED strips and a nightlight.
There are (4) 20L tanks on the top row, the leftmost being continuously topped off by a float valve with tap water (7.5 pH). My tap water contains chlorine but no chloramines, so I should be able to bubble it off. Not shown are the airstones in those tanks. From what I hear, it takes 24 hours with decent agitation to gas off chlorine sufficiently. The tanks are set up with bulkheads and one way check valves between them so they only flow from left to right. If I intend to do 20% daily water changes on my tanks, they will need to drain about 24 gph, per side. That will require approx 60 gallons a day of dechlorinated water. The way I see it, each 20 gallon tank will be cycled 3 times a day, but the average time spent in each tank will mean that the chlorine levels in the tanks decrease as the water flows through. I’m not too good at math, but it seems the leftmost tank would have about 2/3 the chlorine as what comes out of the tap, the next one would have 1/3, and the third tank would have less, while the 4th tank should have almost none. Of course this will need to be set up and tested with test strips. Assuming that proves true, I’d place a bio filter in the rightmost tank and maybe some shrimp to serve as a coalmine canary.
The dechlorinated water would then keep both sumps topped off, while a dripper running out of the sumps at just below the water level would drip out about 1 gph. I think the way I have it set up if anything failed there wouldn’t be a flood, I should only have to monitor that the overflows are working and water is draining from the sump. If anyone has better ideas how to route the plumbing I’m open to ideas. I’m not sure yet about drilling the tanks for overflows or using an over the top system. I’m kind of worried about the over the top systems loosing their vacuum and stopping working. Anyone had good/bad experience with those?
As for the sumps, return and drain, I think I’d need to handle about 2-400 gph on each system, correct? I know you want to run the tank water through the sump about 5 times an hour, but how would having both tanks inline influence that? I don’t want too low of a flow rate so the bottom tank gets significantly dirtier water than the top, but I also don’t want to keep the discus, especially fry, in a tornado.
I’m happy to clarify if that’s confusing, and I’m eager to hear what everyone thinks of my plan, improvements or suggestions. Thanks!

[FishFanMan]

Well, I don't breed discus so perhaps I'm not the appropriate person so respond to you. But my question would be are there enough buyers for the juvies that you'll put on the market? From my limited understanding, you need a high capacity rodi to keep up with WCs you'll need to keep the water quality at it's best for breeding. Don't think a sump is at all capable of that.

[Larry Bugg]

I guess there just isn't enough detail so it leaves me with a lot of questions. The 4 20L will not contain fish, just plants and maybe shrimp? Since your are expecting chlorine in them I guess that is the only option but that also leaves the shrimp questionable. I'm not sure what the point of having them is. If you are just trying to age the water then why not one large holding container. I use two 330 gallon totes to age my water. So you will only have four 60 gallon tanks for discus? Are these for grow outs? What will you keep pairs in? With only four 60's I'm guessing you are only planning on 1 or 2 pairs? Is the water from the four 20L going directly to the sumps and then to the four 60's? Maybe I'm missing something there. Why would you have clean water running to sumps? I have to add that I'm not a fan of drip systems when it comes to discus and in particular grow outs. They need full water changes not a slow drip. Your water will continuously have dissolved organic compounds in it and this will lead to their grown being hindered. JMO.

[RMB]

Well, I don't breed discus so perhaps I'm not the appropriate person so respond to you. But my question would be are there enough buyers for the juvies that you'll put on the market? From my limited understanding, you need a high capacity rodi to keep up with WCs you'll need to keep the water quality at it's best for breeding. Don't think a sump is at all capable of that.

Well, I'm not worrying too much about selling yet, I'll figure that out if and when I get there and stop the pairs from breeding if need be. I've been told that I don't need to use RODI water for discus as long as the fish are acclimated to my conditions, which aren't that extreme. The breeder I'm buying them from is using tap water not too different from mine. How is a sump not capable of maintaining water quality? What would be better? I'll have approx 10 gallons of filter floss and media for bacteria and probably 400 gph flow rate depending on the exact pump and head height I end up with.

[RMB]

I guess there just isn't enough detail so it leaves me with a lot of questions. The 4 20L will not contain fish, just plants and maybe shrimp? Since your are expecting chlorine in them I guess that is the only option but that also leaves the shrimp questionable. I'm not sure what the point of having them is. If you are just trying to age the water then why not one large holding container. I use two 330 gallon totes to age my water. So you will only have four 60 gallon tanks for discus? Are these for grow outs? What will you keep pairs in? With only four 60's I'm guessing you are only planning on 1 or 2 pairs? Is the water from the four 20L going directly to the sumps and then to the four 60's? Maybe I'm missing something there. Why would you have clean water running to sumps? I have to add that I'm not a fan of drip systems when it comes to discus and in particular grow outs. They need full water changes not a slow drip. Your water will continuously have dissolved organic compounds in it and this will lead to their grown being hindered. JMO.

Well, how I'd hoped the water aging system would work is that the water spends at least 24 hrs in those tanks before entering the main tanks. I'm beginning to rethink that because I agree with you that a traditional water change is more effective at removing nitrates. I had planned to have the water enter the sump rather than the tanks because that's where it drains out. The water level in the tanks would remain constant due to the overflows. The idea was to have the water entering controlled by the water going out, rather than the other way around with a constant drip into the tanks, that way if the drain stops functioning no more water would enter.

As for stocking, I had planned to start with groups of discus and/or angelfish , then establish one or two pairs of each. The tanks would be divided (30g is big enough for a pair from what I can tell), and the fry raised either in the other 60g or the other half of the tank. I have a 100gal and a few other assorted tanks I can set up if need be. I may end up doing water changes as you suggest though and using the 100gal as an aging tank.

[Larry Bugg]

When growing out discus we have a bigger concern than just nitrates. Nitrates can be easily monitored and controlled. What we worry about is dissolved organic compounds (docs) that come from left over food and detritus. What we have found is that these docs make a good breeding ground for bacteria and these bacteria tend to create an environment that adversely affect the young discus ability to grow to their potential. These docs do affect other species of fish but with discus in particular the problems are very noticeable. For this reason we rely on very large daily water changes on young discus to keep them healthy and growing properly. A drip system doesn't do a great job controlling these docs and that is a big reason I am not fond of them with discus. You need to think a lot about how much tank space you really need if you plan to breed discus. You are correct that 30 gallons is big enough for a pair but the remaining 30 is no where near big enough. You can expect spawns of 60 to 200 fry. (same for angels also) At a minimum you would want 2 75 gallon tanks per pair and that would be with stopping their spawning. After being with the parents for 2 to 3 weeks they are going to need new tanks to be moved into. It is better to not sell before they have reached 2" which should be about 2 months which means you will need tank space away from the parents for at least another month and the likelihood that you sell the entire spawn quickly is slim. It takes a lot more tank space to breed discus (or angels) than most people consider.

Lot of my friends here are laughing at me right now because I'm building a new fish room and plan on around 1000 gallons for 2 to 3 pairs. They say I will need to add onto the fish house pretty quickly, lol.

[RMB]

Ok, so it looks like I may need to expand in the future if I do get them breeding. I'm only using a third of my fish room right now so I'd be fine with that, especially if I could justify the investment with selling some fish. I'll ditch the drip system. Before I had things set up so I could do water changes with the flip of a switch anyways. What do you think about the sump idea, and flow rate of about 400 gph for two 60g?

[Larry Bugg]

Well, I already told you I'm not a fan of drip systems for discus, may as well finish it off with I'm not a fan of sumps when breeding discus. I have already explained why I feel large water changes are necessary. Since we are doing large water changes there is no need for a sump. Keep it simple. All that is really needed are sponge filters. That is all I use in the fish room. No need to complicate things.

[RMB]

Huh. I guess I assumed there was some huge benefit to a sump since lots of systems and esp. saltwater setups use them, as well as most of the discus setups I've seen so far, but I guess with large WC and vacuuming the tank all the time there might not be. I had my old fish room all on one giant air pump and sponge filters, I just never had anything that needed such frequent WC. I still might try to automate them at some point, but I guess there won't be a way to clean up detritus automatically. Thanks for all the help Larry!

[Larry Bugg]

No problem with the help. It is what we are here for.

Want to speed up siphoning the detritus.......here is what I do. I take a siphon tube off the short hose they come on and put it on a long enough hose to reach every tank in the room. The hose is plumbed into my drain system. Merely placing the tube in the tank and filling it with water and holding it upright starts the siphon. I can then go from tank to tank cleaning the bottom very quickly. Automating is definitely the way to go. In the new fish house I plan on having a pump in each of the two 330 gallon water storage tanks which will plumbed to ball valves above each tank so all I need to do is turn the valve to fill the tank with fresh water. Each of my tanks are drilled so I turn another ball valve to drain each tank. The plumbed siphon tube completes it. Water changes are very quick.

[RMB]

I'm not sure I get how your siphon starts automatically. I had one I kept set up with one end in the drain, and then a valve a couple feet down from the tube end. Shutting off the valve preserved the prime while switching tanks. With your setup would it be possible to add a float valve from the fresh water reservoir so that each tank fills to the proper level without supervision?

[Larry Bugg]

Yes a float valve for each tank would work.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Ryan and welcome to Simply. Before going to whole hog with breeding etc and especially since you have not kept discus before why don't you get your feet wet with raising a group of juvies. It would be a good learning experience and help to prep you for your plans. I know you have experience with fish but discus are different.
Pat

[RMB]

Thanks Pat,
I had planned to pick up a group of 6 or 8 2" discus. That may not happen for a few months. I'm going to get the system up and running and maybe do a group of angelfish to start with. The last thing I'm going to do is go pay 500$ for a proven pair right off the bat.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Pat,
I had planned to pick up a group of 6 or 8 2" discus. That may not happen for a few months. I'm going to get the system up and running and maybe do a group of angelfish to start with. The last thing I'm going to do is go pay 500$ for a proven pair right off the bat.

Ryan, please do not cross contaminate your system with adding angels. Best to do a fishless cycle prior to adding discus.
Pat