Val and Sag anecdotal evidence of incompatiblity

[Jack L]

i have an old book, it mentioned that plants release chemicals to attack each other. i think its the Ecology of the Planted aquarium book. from memory i mentioned Val and Sag as not playing nice together.

this is just a share, not saying anything more that i find it interesting (and annoying as the grass background did a 180 now)
when the were not next to each other, they did well, now next to each other...dieing!!

i had val in the back, sag in the front
the sag was growing great, to the top even.
the val was spreading too. the sag in front was blocking view, so i moved it to back to thicken the background to get closer to a solid green wall

for a few days the background was a nicer thicker green, the two blade thicknesses looked good.

but the plants keep fading, i thought it was from rough handling on transplant. but i don't think that anymore. they would have bounced back by now. in fact severe pruning has often made plants to better IME.

anyway, look at what is left. and i haven't change anything much in my maintenance or lighting, just the placement of the plants.
the other plants in tank have continued to do well, the crypts and sword

100696

[Filip]

I personaly dont buy the theory of incompatibility of keeeping specific plants .
Having spend all my 20 year aquarium carrier mostly read about them and keeping them (that is until i discover discus :) ) i have come to conclusion that they are just one big enigma to me and that they grow how they want and when they want .
In an completly unchanged enviroment one plant starts thriving and take off the entire tank and the next period it barely survive or just dies off . Then another plant starts to be no.1 grower just to start rotting the next moment .
i totaly gave up on choosing plant list my self and started planting many diferent species and let the nature tell which one lives , thrives, survives or dies :)

Not very helping to this thread i know , but just wanted to share my 20 year experience with plants and that is as Socrates would say "now i know that i don't know anything" :D

[DJW]

In Walstad's chapter on allelopathy, she speculated that tanks with frequent water changes would have the allelochemicals too diluted to make a difference, but I suppose there could be some in the substrate. I agree with Filip, plants work in mysterious ways sometimes.

[Filip]

In Walstad's chapter on allelopathy, she speculated that tanks with frequent water changes would have the allelochemicals too diluted to make a difference, but I suppose there could be some in the substrate. I agree with Filip, plants work in mysterious ways sometimes.

This allelopathy phenomena in plants sound much like the discus growth hormones theory.
Maybe a little offtopic here but is there any scientific evidence of this growth hormones , like on the allelopathy mater , or are they just anecdotal ?


BTW. I have a plants theory of my own . A completly subjective opinion , i havent even read across anything simmilar , but i think that just like terestrials , aquatic plants also have periods / seasons of thriving ,blooming , reproducing , followed by a periods / seasons of dormancy .
When it goes in a season of dormancy/stagnancy there is not much we can do to make it grow fast again.

[DJW]

On the matter of growth inhibiting substances, there is plenty to chew on in this old thread:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43331-discus-produce-growth-inhibitors

[plecocicho]

Allelopahty is scientific proven part of realtionship among plants. Plants use chemical cues and substances for competition and coomunication (the later via mychorizia, in which symbiontic fung act as optical cables. http://www.bio-web.dk/ole_pedersen/pdf/tag_2002_15_7.pdf

[Jack L]

i don't have enough sensors and data to know for sure either way.

but i know that moving them from own parts of tank to all together didn't go well.

Notes:
the sag i left in front, hasn't died off
the jungle val that was in middle of tank, furthest from the sag is still doing okay. i was never moved
the sag that i moved to the back corner, where it was empty didn't die off.

(based only on observation) the val and sag that i put right next to each other both have went south, and the sag is now just root stumps. i'm hoping the Val recovers and takes over the space.

i was going to remove the remaining sag, but decided to see how it continues. i have lost a lot of both at this point anyway.

instead i decided to bump up the light a little to see if it jump starts some growth of either. though i will have to watch that i don't get algae again.

DJW, allelopathy, yes that was it...

Filip, i have seen the same too, e.g. at this time the crypts are doing great... there was some fern that was dead and black for months, then for a month it came back. i just found this interesting....and inline with Walstad's book. i think she may have mention val and sag specifically, but i could be mistaken.

[Jack L]

In Walstad's chapter on allelopathy, she speculated that tanks with frequent water changes would have the allelochemicals too diluted to make a difference, but I suppose there could be some in the substrate. I agree with Filip, plants work in mysterious ways sometimes.

my frequency of WC has declined some compared to when i was growing them out...