discus breathing heavy and one at top of water

[lizzie29]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

After i fed beef heart one of the discus went to the top of the tank and is gasping for air but all of them have been breathing heavily for a while and I've been trying to get to the bottom of it with no luck


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

nothing apart from breathing heavy and one of them today has gone to the top of the tank - they are all eating fine and look fine


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

When first had them treated for parasites for 3 day dosage as one of them had stringy white poop but they have all been fine since - have added some salt water tonight and half dose prime to see if it helps him along



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

150L been set up for around 9 weeks now, have 8 discus, 2 denison barbs 5 neon dwarf rainbows 6 neon tetras 6 red nose rummies 1 red tail shark

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

15% twice a week

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

gravel quite deep 9 weeks used stability

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

i normally leave it sitting for around 12 hours or more, ph is high 7.6 but have tested higher previously, about a week ago used half a dose of ph down seemed to do the trick ph is saying 7.4

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _____30

- ph _____ 7.4

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____40-80(the colours look the same on the chart to me???

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____tap water and use prime

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

no new fish 2 weeks ago I lost 6 denison barbs doing a big clean i put it down to spike in nitrite - all other fish were ok but they are all breathing heavily since.. i have a large air stone and i have raised the spray bar so I'm sure it can't be lack of oxygen... i have plenty of plants and 3 pcs bog wood, i did take the carbon out a while back when i first dosed for parasites and never put any back in - could this be it?? i don't know if because the spike damaged their gills they're just struggling to breathe but don't know what to treat with? should the nitrate be lower i have bought nitrate down but have only used a tiny drop as i didn't like the look of it .. what do you think please help any suggestions!!

[LizStreithorst]

Your nitrate reading is way too high. It should be around 5.

[lizzie29]

Ahh ok, you're right it is too high after reading up on it... tbh on the tester kit it said 40 is ok i assume thats for most tropical fish but with discus being clean freaks it not good... what do you suggest to bring it down?? like i said on post i have bought some stuff that is supposed to sink to the bottom then reduces nitrate i did add a dose last night but i lost the little guy who was floating at top :( :( :( - are there any other things you would suggest? should i be changing more water when i do my changes?(i haven't liked changing too much at one go because of the high ph in my tap water)

[lizzie29]

Oh and how much do you say i should be feeding them and how often??? i have heard different opinions my lfs feeds his once a day i think a colleague twice but i know someone else who feeds his up to 5x a day?? I've been doing once sometimes twice a day variety of beef heart blood worms and artemia with garlic - how often do you guys feed yours?? trying to get to the bottom of what is causing the nitrate to be so high - and would anyone say it is overstocked?? i don't think it looks overstocked at all - what do you think

[LizStreithorst]

I just noticed that this a 150 liter tank, not a 150 gallon. That's an awful lot of fish for a tank that size. Also your water change percentage is way too low. I do at least 30% daily on my normally stocked BB tanks.

[Ardan]

Liz is correct, too many fish for 40 gallons. Definitely increase wc's to at least 50% per day and try to get them in a larger tank. Also skip the ph down. Don't worry about the ph except aging the water is good for the ph.

hth
Ardan

[LizStreithorst]

On my. I need to start reading more carefully. I didn't notice that the OP was using pH down on top of the overstocked tank and inadequacy of WC.

My advise...Get a larger tank. Put the Discs in it. Keep it BB. Feed often. Do large daily WC. Put the pH Down in the trash.

[lizzie29]

Hi guys thanks a lot for all the advice - my discus are still small and I knew I'd need a bigger tank eventually - there still seems loads of space always in the tank it doesn't look overstocked looks just right but I trust you guys know what your talking about - did another water change yesterday and got some water aging for later today - been looking at RO or HMA filters as there seems to be a lot of nitrate in my tap water and chlorine and ph seems to go higher on weekends - was consedering getting one to mix with tap water 50/50 or whatever tests best - what do you guys think to these and which one would be best do u think - thanks again!

[WilhelmJacob]

Hi to everybody,

I have 7 Diskus, and dark angel diskus never liked so much to be with other ones, so time by time he comes, eat with others, swim, and he go to his part, even protecting it from others.
3 Neons got ICK, and i am using Herbtana product and since 6 days i dose 90ml of VOOGLE easy life and ICK didnt spread, and its going away slowly, diskus wasnt infected. Apetite was during this 40 days veryyy good.
Yesterday i bought Stedker good heart, and they didnt like to eat it so much, dry food i avoid to give them,. So i went and i took some fresh tubifex worms, which is comming from hidrobiologic farm. Everything in Germany, higly controlled. Diskus ate it like craz, they loved it.
Today in the morning they are close to the wood root, and dont wanna swim, and breathing heavyyyyy, like no air in the tank, they even came just to eat and went again back.

Water Parameters are very good,

Juwel Vison 450 L
temp 27-28 C
PH 6,9
KH 6
GH 8-9
Cl2 0
NO3 8-10 (i have thick planted tank)
NO2 0
Cl2 0
CO2 - 30mg/l

I have no clue what can be.Other fishes r behaving totally normal....
I have video, so u guys can take a look and help me .....

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi Wilhelm and welcome on this forum, sorry your fish seem to be in some sort of distress. The file you attached seems to be a still image, the video you mentioned would be more useful so can you upload it on YouTube then share on this thread the link for it? Am I correct in understanding ALL your fish are suddenly breathing much faster, not just the dark angel? Did you change anything lately in your tank? Was it the first time you fed the heart mix, was it a new batch? When you do your last water change? How much water do you change and how often? While we try and understand what is going on can you increase water oxygenation by adding more air pumps and airstones? Hope things improve

[WilhelmJacob]

only diskus, other fishes are ok, it was 3rd time to feed them, and seems they dont like it....they< started to move a bit today, breathing better, bbut they are not so actove as usual.... i do weekly 30 % water change, now only not cuz of the Herbtana medizine... not allowed to do water change till 14 days ... maybe i should change a water???

[LizStreithorst]

Wilhelm, Can you tell us what is in that med? I've never heard of it. Discus need daily water change, especially when they're not feeling well. When I use a med that says not to treat for a period of time, I do a WC and replace the amount of the med that I have removed.

Your Discus look skinny. Is their poop black or white and clear?

[WilhelmJacob]

Its herbs medication, HERBTANA against ICH, and i use VOOGLE ( also requares 14 days of not water change) from easy life to boost their immune system.. they r not skinny t all, poop is as ususal, they just dont behave as ususal, staying in one corner. I jist treid to give them a food, and they hardly eat... also....they are 6 cm big, still babies, only 2 of them are skinnier , i got them like that, but they eat, other normal ones no.... i will try with water change now... 30-40 %.

[WilhelmJacob]

i find it strange, as soon water level reached 30 % less, they started to be active.. a nd looking for a food........and swimming a bit....

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi again Wilhelm, as a fellow European I understand that it is common (the word normal would not be appropriate in this case) to see fish in the same body condition as yours. It does not mean they are not skinny. A well fed discus should look round in profile ( not "pointy" and shaped like an American football) and plump face-on (not "pinched"). If you look at the photos of discus at shows you can see what I mean, or even at mine - they are not show quality but I have grown them over the last year from the size of a 2 euro coin to 16cm+ just giving them plenty of grated fish and clean water.
Beyond the increased respiration rate there probably other underlaying issues with your tank

[bluelagoon]

Just to jump in here.I'm not a big fan of the natural meds from plant extracts and don't believe they have mush affect on the harmful types of pathogens that fish can carry.Altho,some folks use Rooibos tea for the anti-oxidant properties said to enhance immunity.Go with real meds for better results when treating for pathogens or some will (parasites) can be killed with just temps greater than 86f.When discus become sickly,chances are not enough large WC's are done.

[WilhelmJacob]

Oh, i changed the water and they are swimming like nothing happened, reacting and hungry and beathing normal. THANKS YOU!!! somehow man can think better when have with whom to share a problem and getting some tips and help.
all of them are swimming together now... so, u change water on daily bases?

its my frist time to keep diskuses in Germany,

[WilhelmJacob]

those r diskuses which i got from STANDKER,

[Paul Sabucchi]

The more water you change more often possible the better! I change 240 liters out of about 360 net every day and probably some folks here consider me a slacker as they change 90% twice a day!

[WilhelmJacob]

:eek: 2 x pro day 90 %??????? even rain not falling so much and sooo often.. i was talking with lot of fish keepers, they do 1-2 times water changes, depends on the condition of the water... in my case. cuz of meds i should do each 2 day 50 %, ..... BTW the fishes are really happy now... :) And they dont like to eat BEEf heart, STENDKER GOOD HEART is known as the best food for them, and they simply try it like a small babies and spew it out... and wait for something else.... any recomandation for good food exept frozen one which i am giving to them ( diffirent tipes of worms, and vwgetables espec made for them )

[LizStreithorst]

Haikari Discus Gold is an excellent soft pellet. Do they eat your frozen foods with gusto or do they sometimes spit it out as well?

[Tuterosso]

i think this not stendker fish, probably someone lie to you, make more pics

[LizStreithorst]

those r diskuses which i got from STANDKER,

Why do you say that? They look like Stendker's to me:confused:

[WilhelmJacob]

frozen they eat alll !

[WilhelmJacob]

its from MEGAZOO, and they take only from Stendker.

2 Marlboro red,
1 German wonder ( skinny but starting to grow )
2 Blue Diamond
1 DArk Angel ( good apetite but still small)
1 Brilliant Tirquoise ( this was a bbit bigger then the others, and now he growed quite fast in comparisomn to the others)

[eugenefish]

:eek: 2 x pro day 90 %??????? even rain not falling so much and sooo often.. i was talking with lot of fish keepers, they do 1-2 times water changes, depends on the condition of the water... in my case. cuz of meds i should do each 2 day 50 %, ..... BTW the fishes are really happy now... :) And they dont like to eat BEEf heart, STENDKER GOOD HEART is known as the best food for them, and they simply try it like a small babies and spew it out... and wait for something else.... any recomandation for good food exept frozen one which i am giving to them ( diffirent tipes of worms, and vwgetables espec made for them )

I did 2 X 90% water change everyday when I grow my 21 discus from 3/4" to almost 5 " in 5 months. They are so happy, healthy and they never get sick for once. All they do is begging for food all day long even I feed them like 9 times a day. One simple trick I learn from making them healthy is lots of fresh water. Picture of my discus a month ago when they reach 4".

Like Paul said, healthy discus should have a round body with small eyes and not an american football shape ;)

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[WilhelmJacob]

Wonderful big diskus FISCHES :))) i never saw small diskus fish and to be soo fat and thick :) all over the world they r still babies :))). i only can try to do often water changes, as much as my time allows to me..

[Paul Sabucchi]

:eek: 2 x pro day 90 %??????? even rain not falling so much and sooo often.. i was talking with lot of fish keepers, they do 1-2 times water changes, depends on the condition of the water... in my case. cuz of meds i should do each 2 day 50 %, ..... BTW the fishes are really happy now... :) And they dont like to eat BEEf heart, STENDKER GOOD HEART is known as the best food for them, and they simply try it like a small babies and spew it out... and wait for something else.... any recomandation for good food exept frozen one which i am giving to them ( diffirent tipes of worms, and vwgetables espec made for them )

Hi, I know it sound pretty extreme changing so much water, it is all tied in with a different way of doing things. Massive daily water changes, together with daily scrupulous tank cleaning (and keeping the tanks bare bottom to make it easier) are in function of feeding young growing fish plenty and often. It is not just a matter of keeping nitrates to a minimum but also other things such as desolved organic compounds (DOCs) and bacterial count. It is a bit like all the big commercial breeders do and it works for them. For some reason hobbyists here in Europe are often led to believe that similar results can readily be achieved by growing discus in a tank with substrate, plants and decorations (that all trap detritus and impede cleaning), changing little water seldom and feeding sparingly. I have seen on other forums that in the majority of cases the results of this approach are far less satisfactory, with fish growing scarcely and not of a nice shape (stunted), very often the fish have immune systems so weakened that it makes them more prone to parasitic diseases and infections.
When there is a problem many advise to start using medication rather indiscriminately without knowing for certain what is the cause of the problem, while the more experienced members of this forum advise to do a big water change...and then change more water! Only if that does not fix it start to investigate the cause and take appropriate action.
Food-wise although some top US and Canadian brands like New Life Spectrum or North Fin are not easy to find, Sera, Tropical and JBL are easy to find and Aquaristikshop.de also stocks Hikari.
With any kind of frozen food particularly in summer there is a chance the food myght be thawed with the heat and then re-frozen, with the risk of unknowingly feeding your fish spoiled food, it is what might have happened with your fish.

[WilhelmJacob]

THANK U A LOT ON SUCH NICE ADVICES!!! FROZEN FOOD they like, only beef heart from STENDKER they dont like... now after 50 % water change fishes swimming, and Diskus are normal again.. i didnt change water almoust 9 days , shame on me...

[WilhelmJacob]

All back to normal:)) i cant upload pics i made .... always pop up the window FAILED!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Probably the file size of the photos is too large. Either drop the resolution to the minimum on your phone/camera or download an app like Reduce Photo Size or similar. I hope you like this forum and would consider to continue visiting and participating (if so think about telling us more about yourself on the Welcome thread). As the lion share of members are located in the USA it would be nice to have more from Germany too as these are the two countries where discus keeping all started. Having said this here you can find people from all continents (ok, maybe not Antarctica...could be tough keeping discus there).

[eugenefish]

All back to normal:)) i cant upload pics i made .... always pop up the window FAILED!

Properly your pictures file size are too big for uploading. You may need to resize the pictures first.

[eugenefish]

Hi, I know it sound pretty extreme changing so much water, it is all tied in with a different way of doing things. Massive daily water changes, together with daily scrupulous tank cleaning (and keeping the tanks bare bottom to make it easier) are in function of feeding young growing fish plenty and often. It is not just a matter of keeping nitrates to a minimum but also other things such as desolved organic compounds (DOCs) and bacterial count. It is a bit like all the big commercial breeders do and it works for them. For some reason hobbyists here in Europe are often led to believe that similar results can readily be achieved by growing discus in a tank with substrate, plants and decorations (that all trap detritus and impede cleaning), changing little water seldom and feeding sparingly. I have seen on other forums that in the majority of cases the results of this approach are far less satisfactory, with fish growing scarcely and not of a nice shape (stunted), very often the fish have immune systems so weakened that it makes them more prone to parasitic diseases and infections.
When there is a problem many advise to start using medication rather indiscriminately without knowing for certain what is the cause of the problem, while the more experienced members of this forum advise to do a big water change...and then change more water! Only if that does not fix it start to investigate the cause and take appropriate action.
Food-wise although some top US and Canadian brands like New Life Spectrum or North Fin are not easy to find, Sera, Tropical and JBL are easy to find and Aquaristikshop.de also stocks Hikari.
With any kind of frozen food particularly in summer there is a chance the food myght be thawed with the heat and then re-frozen, with the risk of unknowingly feeding your fish spoiled food, it is what might have happened with your fish.

Very well said Paul. This is the main reasons why we saw so many sick discus out there and so many discus keepers asking for help.

Actually discus are quite tough as long as you give them the basic need which is fresh water and clean environment :)

[WilhelmJacob]

Dark angel look skinny, bbut he ate as all others, only he is chased by bigger, he is smaller , as german wonder...
also, he is going under the leaves of plant behind, and staying till the moment he deside to eat, so i give a food then and he is eating ...
only he is breathing somehow doffirent, stronger then others... its maybe a parasite?

ALL fishes are cured from ICH, not visible white spots.. Diskus never got them..
Dark angel swimming with others now, but before he was hiding.. like affraid.... now he is very active.... Any possible tips? he was like that from the first begining


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[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi it would be most useful if you could show us a video. As explained previously on this like in most other forums the files you can upload directly can only be quite small. For video the best way is to load it on YouTube (do you have a YouTube account, if not you can upload on YouTube just with your Chrome identity), then just click on Share then on Copy link and paste the link here.
Glad the Ich seems cleared and the herbal medication may well have been more appropriate than more aggressive medication as you seem to have a fair few loaches ("Botia"), that having no scales are more sensitive to many medications.

[WilhelmJacob]

Here is the video :))) i posted it onmy official channel :) i just feed them 3 rd time today with new frozen food.. they like it much more, eating like a beasts :))). Also i have 6 botia, 3 small botia tigers, and 9 Amano schrimps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPvW7SMQcoU

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi, glad the new food is suiting them better. Respiration rate seems still a little fast but not terrible.
I like your tank very much, I am quite a fan of planted community tanks (got 2 myself) but maybe it is not best suited for growing out discus as there is a lot going on, including a lot of very active other fish that can also out-compete your discus for food. Ideally I would leave that tank just as it is but try to get a separate tank just for the discus (around 250 liters) to give them the more dedicated care they deserve. Maybe an idea for an early Christmas present? You could even consider looking for a second hand tank to use for the next year or so to grow out your discus, once they have reached adult size you could re-introduce them to the planted tank and re-sell the grow out tank if you do not want to keep it. A discus grow out tank does not require much fancy equipment: just basic lighting, a heater and a sponge filter. Let's see what other people recommend.
mit freundlichen Grüßen

[WilhelmJacob]

HEhe, is that Italian tried to write in german? :))))). this tank was my birthday present in june :) so, hardly got this one too :) hehe, my cousins dont like any kind of animals and only what i can have again is my aquariums. In Serbia i had 4 of them, 250 L. Diskus get the food first :) then the other fishes eating after, and plus, they got spoiled, i am gulty :)))) i was giving them food from my fingers, and now they dont wanna eat in another way, only like PIRANAS :))) from a hand :)
2 of them looks skinny, but i wont give up on them, they are eating good, and activ more every time. Only what makes me a problem is sand vacuuming :(((( In a previous tanks i had 2-3 planths, and was njaaa, good shape, in this one i liked to have cuz its long and 450 l , there is a space to keep them all . and some of the fishes r living 1.3 years, so, good for them :) now they r not disturbed... i did respiration now cuz i changed a water and i did a medication , as u know, O2 is on high level, and CO2 25-30 mg/l , all belansed, PH 6.8 .... temp 28.5 Celsius .:)
Kind regards :)

[snxtif]

Hi Wilhelm,

Trying to raise young Discus (yup Diskus sounds cooler :p) in community planted tank is an uphill battle, a steep one.
The price to pay is some of discus, if not all will be stunted (I learned that first hand.)

- They need a LOT of food to grow properly.
- They poop a LOT... it would be almost impossible to keep up with vacuuming substrate.
- They eat rather slowly... feeding more and other fish will likely be overeating.
- Plants complicate things.
- They need constant "clean" and "fresh" water.

It's not impossible, but as mentioned, it's an uphill battle.

hth,

Cyrus

[WilhelmJacob]

in German we write Diskus , not Discus :)). i give them from my hand till they dont eat it, so ... and they r not eating so slow :)) they r quiet fast in comparison with other fishes :) . Bare Tank is spmthing what i dont like, and looks like " something " only now an aquarium .... wanna be pleasure for me, and its ok if i need to care a bit more then usual. :) its my 4th Hobby which i really like :))) LOVE t first , and work after :))

[Paul Sabucchi]

It is a personal choice, keep us updated with developments and hoping you will continue to be an active member on this forum as everyone's contribution (as long as it is respectful and possibly friendly - that is how we like it) is useful

[JamesW]

The only one I'd be concerned about is the turq showing his lateral lines. He looks pinched in the forehead.

Your fish almost certainly won't end up looking like the award winners that some members here grow, but that's OK, that's the trade off for having a lovely planted display tank that you have and I'm sure they look beautiful to you! As an analogy most of us don't spend our life in the gym, pounding protein shakes to get the ideal body, some of us like other hobbies like discus!

Most modern planted tanks with PPS-pro or EI dosing regimens recommended 50% weekly water changes, you probably want to be higher than that especially if you are feeding beefheart.

[eugenefish]

Hi Wilhelm,

Trying to raise young Discus (yup Diskus sounds cooler :p) in community planted tank is an uphill battle, a steep one.
The price to pay is some of discus, if not all will be stunted (I learned that first hand.)

- They need a LOT of food to grow properly.
- They poop a LOT... it would be almost impossible to keep up with vacuuming substrate.
- They eat rather slowly... feeding more and other fish will likely be overeating.
- Plants complicate things.
- They need constant "clean" and "fresh" water.

It's not impossible, but as mentioned, it's an uphill battle.

hth,

Cyrus

I can't agree more on these facts about discus Cyrus :o

Discus especially when they are young, they need warm water (84 to 85 C). With these range of water temperature, your choice of plants that will grow well are very limited. I am very lucky to know these forum and learn by others people mistakes. I end up setup separate tanks for plant tank and discus. Every night after work I am sitting in front of the tanks and enjoy my time with them instead of sitting in front of the computer and asking people for help because my plants are melting down or my fishes are getting sick. I guess I am so luck to have both side of the world.


Here is my plant tank. I only do water change every 10 day and my plants are growing like crazy. Also my shrimps are making babies like crazy.......

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117705

[Paul Sabucchi]

Totally agree, Multiple Tank Syndrome is a cure and not a disease! That is my excuse and will be putting it forward to the Wife! I might be overdosing with the cure though as I have 5 planted and 4 non planted tanks. BTW Eugene nice greenery!

[LizStreithorst]

Totally agree, Multiple Tank Syndrome is a cure and not a disease! That is my excuse and will be putting it forward to the Wife! I might be overdosing with the cure though as I have 5 planted and 4 non planted tanks. BTW Eugene nice greenery!

Very nice, indeed. I don't have the knack with plants.

[eugenefish]

Totally agree, Multiple Tank Syndrome is a cure and not a disease! That is my excuse and will be putting it forward to the Wife! I might be overdosing with the cure though as I have 5 planted and 4 non planted tanks. BTW Eugene nice greenery!

Thank you Paul. Multiple Tank Syndrome definitely is a cure and not a disease:)

[eugenefish]

Very nice, indeed. I don't have the knack with plants.

Don't get me start on the plants Liz:cheesy: I spend a few months looking into different plants forums:computer: to learn how to be successful when doing a plant aquarium. You can call me cheap lol. I just don't like to disappointing myself or putting my hard earned money down the drain.

[WilhelmJacob]

t 28-29 Moustly all plants will grow good, and in my tank they are going very fine. I change water every 2-3 days, 50 %, and my Diskus fish are getting better and better. Only a probblem is for me vacuming white sand hehehehehe, but what is a MUST its not HARD :)) MY Ramirezi are mating a lot, almoust each week one new place with eggs.. i have discus FISH only 4 weeks, so, i have time to make them fat :) no?

[jeep]

You've made a bit turn around in a short time. Congratulations!

[WilhelmJacob]

Thanks :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Looking forward to seeing photos of nice fat round fish!

[WilhelmJacob]

will post soon :))) ive been adding 4 more discus and they r gathering now more together. eating good, happy, swimming.. :)) and i compared my fishes with what i bought, they were the same size,, now in comparison with new ones, mine are almoust double bigger, so they growed.. Dark angel is not hiding anymore. :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Really glad to hear that, well done!