Sump or canister filter or both?

[talkdiscustome]

the old tank that i bought from craigslist has holes and tubes in it for the sump.
just wondering, is there such thing as too much filtration? im running a canister filter and 2 sponges and stilllllllllllll.... cycling and saw some videos of DIY sump in youtube.
was thinking of buying like a 15 or 20 gallon used tank to be used as a sump for my 90 gallon aquarium. any thoughts?

[Filip]

I would run the sump along with the canister and ditch the sponges for a nicer and cleaner tank look.
I do agree that filtration space and more water in the system is never enough .

[Ryan925]

I'd def use a sump if the tank is drilled. I'm running a canister and have been considering switching over to external overflow and sump

[atlantadiscus]

Size and equip the sump correctly and the canister filter will not be needed at all.

[DanDiscus]

Sump....definitely.

You add there all your filtering systems. They will be far superior than a canister filter.

[Neptune]

sump

[MD.David]

Neither!
Sponge filters only.
Plumb in a water change system that makes it easy to do as much water change is needed, I have my 120g plumbed up to continually change water. I can change over 500 gallons an hr. Twice a week I let fresh water change 3 times in a day, all the rest I change 80% daily.
Tank is bare bottom.
My discus are super healthy. I use to use canister filters, I was so busy with work and a move, all my fish began to stress, nitrates were abit inflated for too long. Three got really sick. I medicated and treated and switched over to a "direct plumb system", water changes are never an issue now and it takes up almost none of my time.
If your willing to do a sump and invest that much time, just do a direct plumb system.

[DanDiscus]

Neither!
Sponge filters only.
Plumb in a water change system that makes it easy to do as much water change is needed, I have my 120g plumbed up to continually change water. I can change over 500 gallons an hr. Twice a week I let fresh water change 3 times in a day, all the rest I change 80% daily.
Tank is bare bottom.
My discus are super healthy. I use to use canister filters, I was so busy with work and a move, all my fish began to stress, nitrates were abit inflated for too long. Three got really sick. I medicated and treated and switched over to a "direct plumb system", water changes are never an issue now and it takes up almost none of my time.
If your willing to do a sump and invest that much time, just do a direct plumb system.

It will all depend where you have the tank located.

Your suggestion is perfect for a situation like yours. Poor filtration system but with the capability of replacing it by frequent water changes. Great !!! .

But if the question is Sump or Canister, most have answered sump !! .

[farebox]

i started out with an FX5 for 125G tank, switch to an 20G long DIY sump and totally satisfied with this filter system. Check it out: https://youtu.be/LZp1CFdzsdg
Go for will be comfortable for you to maintain the water quality for your fish.

[talkdiscustome]

Thanks for the input guys, got a question farebox, did you place baffles on your sump? Is that important? How about algae scrubbers? Thanks!

[farebox]

What I did was use two Mattenfilters, 20/30PPI, from SwissTropicals.com to make "baffles". I have no algae scrubbers. First part of sump contains the K1 media and the other part have the Seachem Matrix bio media in filter tray along with return pump, heaters, and air stone.

[LostSouth]

You don't really need baffles on a freshwater sump. The baffles are really for a saltwater tank when you use a skimmer. I don't remember the chemistry behind it, but I think it as something to do with the tension between the air and the water.

That being said, I used a 20h as a sump and bought a kit off ebay that included baffles. It worked out really well. I've done one before using glass I had cut locally. This was maybe and extra $15, but well worth the investment when it came to fit and finish.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/REFUGIUM-KIT-for-30-x12-x12-20-GAL-Long-aquarium-protein-skimmer-sump-/162171419860?hash=item25c22b7cd4:g:Wu4AAOSwe7BWuV3 5

[atlantadiscus]

Looks like Marinepure spheres,not Seachem Matrix in that sump to me?

[Ryan925]

Can you just use acrylic baffles in a glass tank? That's what I was thinking while kicking the idea of a sump around. If that works can just take measurements down to a place like tap plastics and have them cut right there on the spot for a reasonable price

[atlantadiscus]

You could,but acrylic is difficult to bond to glass- better to go all acrylic,or all glass IMO.

[Ryan925]

You could,but acrylic is difficult to bond to glass- better to go all acrylic,or all glass IMO.

Thanks ATL. Helpful as always. Been kicking around some ideas in my head. Was looking at eshopps sumps but they are so expensive so was using the design partially as a model.

[DanDiscus]

Can you just use acrylic baffles in a glass tank? That's what I was thinking while kicking the idea of a sump around. If that works can just take measurements down to a place like tap plastics and have them cut right there on the spot for a reasonable price

Why you do not use Matt Filters as a divider of chambers. You get the best of each world "division in chambers and filtering".

[DanDiscus]

Here you can see my sump. With Hamburg Matt filter dividing it in 2 chambers. Water drains in a filter sock and move moves over plants, the the matt filter and return. Last chamber, with the return pump, is full of Matrix in media bags. You can also see a media reactor with Siporax.

https://youtu.be/wHx-GhDkmLQ

[LostSouth]

You could,but acrylic is difficult to bond to glass- better to go all acrylic,or all glass IMO.

Yes, that used to be a problem. There is actually a GE silicone that the builder I referenced in the link above recommended that works amazingly well. There is a YouTube video showing it being tested.

[talkdiscustome]

Cool. Thanks guys! Been thinking of using lik a foam filter to divide the sump. Seeing yours @dandiscus works, ill jump ahead and do that. How do i prevent the sump from overflowing in case of power outage? Do i have to fill the whole sump with water or just like 3/4 of its capacity? Thanks!

[DanDiscus]

Cool. Thanks guys! Been thinking of using lik a foam filter to divide the sump. Seeing yours @dandiscus works, ill jump ahead and do that. How do i prevent the sump from overflowing in case of power outage? Do i have to fill the whole sump with water or just like 3/4 of its capacity? Thanks!

Fill the tank until it start to overflow. Stop there. Then go and fill the sump up to ~ 3/4 or up to 2-3 " of the top. Make a mark. That will be the max level. Start the return pump. The level will go down and will increase in the tank. The tank will overflow. That's all. Now mark the lower level in the sump. When water evaporate, that level will decrease. You fill then up to the lowest mark to replace the evaporated water.

If you stop the return pump, the water in the sump will increase, but it will never go over the maximum level.

Very easy.

Cheers !!

[Neptune]

Glass is cheap and any hardware store worth its salt will cut to your dimensions.

I just used a 29 gallon tank, siliconed in some dividers so the water flows over and under a couple. Filled up the first chamber with bath scrubbies for a large BB surface area. Then filled the others with block foam and polyester.

I have been throwing the poly away every couple weeks, but I am going to switch to the Swiss Tropic foam as soon as I need to tear down my sump for a good cleaning and regen my Purigen reactor.
I'm thinking the foam can be rinsed on a regular basis and be more economical.

[DanDiscus]

You do not rinse the foam. Go to Stendker discus German site. Read the section about filters. See how to keep a Hamburg matt filter. They have not been cleaned for more than 25 years. Look in youtube "Dicus Hans water change". Watch the video. He will show his Matt filters and will say the same. No need to be cleaned for years !! .

Cheers

[Neptune]

ya I've read all that, that is not my intent with the foam. It is a particulate trap to remove uneaten food, etc. so I can remove it from the water system.
The mulm that they talk about collects in scrubbies. I don't want any more in my system.

[talkdiscustome]

Fill the tank until it start to overflow. Stop there. Then go and fill the sump up to ~ 3/4 or up to 2-3 " of the top. Make a mark. That will be the max level. Start the return pump. The level will go down and will increase in the tank. The tank will overflow. That's all. Now mark the lower level in the sump. When water evaporate, that level will decrease. You fill then up to the lowest mark to replace the evaporated water.

If you stop the return pump, the water in the sump will increase, but it will never go over the maximum level.

Very easy.

Cheers !!

Thanks Dan! appreciate it a lot.

[DanDiscus]

ya I've read all that, that is not my intent with the foam. It is a particulate trap to remove uneaten food, etc. so I can remove it from the water system.
The mulm that they talk about collects in scrubbies. I don't want any more in my system.

Ok... i understand. I have a filter sock for that.

Best !!

[Filip]

You do not rinse the foam. Go to Stendker discus German site. Read the section about filters. See how to keep a Hamburg matt filter. They have not been cleaned for more than 25 years. Look in youtube "Dicus Hans water change". Watch the video. He will show his Matt filters and will say the same. No need to be cleaned for years !! .

Cheers

Do you have any theory or explanation behind this Dan?
Filter foam and sponges are used mainly for mechanical filtration and they do trap a ton of poop , gunk and uneaten food roting in them .
So what's the point of catching all this poop if we don't take it out of the system ?
What's the "magical" filtration power of the trapped poop , and if there are any special filter powers in the poop and gunk , why do we bother to siphon the poop out of our substrate .
I'm not trying to be sarcastical here , just would realy like to here some reasonable and constructive theory .
As leaving the dirt in filtration system and water to rot sounds against my logical reasoning.

[DanDiscus]

From Stendker Germany website:

Aquarium filters are biological filters and not mechanical ones, such as strainers. This
means that the filters will not retain dirt particles, which have to be removed when
cleaning the filters.
Aquarium filters convert water pollutants through bacteria which collect on the filter
material.This information is important so you understand why you do not have to clean
the aquarium filters often! In fact, frequent cleaning would cause an imbalance in the
bacterial culture and hence affect their cleaning and filter performance. Oxygen is also
fed into the aquarium water through the filter pumps.
Filter systems:
Exterior or interior filtersWe recommend using two interior filters to have a backup and to
improve the quality of the water. Exterior filters are connected via tubes and therefore are
placed outside the aquarium. There is a risk of a tube coming loose or a filter starting to
leak. This could cause the aquarium to leak dry. This risk can be avoided by using interior
filters.
Hamburg mat filters
We are often asked for the best and simplest aquarium filters. We use only Hamburg mat
filters. These filter mats have an extremely large surface area; the polluted aquarium
water flows through it very slowly, giving the bacteria enough time and oxygen to break
down all pollutants optimally. In addition, in a purely discus aquarium without substrate
the Hamburg mat filter can be used as a divider. You can reduce or increase the space
for your fish to swim in as you required. A small space for swimming has the great
advantage that the fish develop assertiveness when feeding, eat better and live together
more harmoniously. In addition, the large volume of the aquarium means you will always
have good quality of water and consequently optimum conditions for growth for your fish.
Breeding success and optimum growth of your discus fish, free of disease and social
stress, is almost guaranteed.
In our breeding operation we only use Hamburg mat filters. These filters consist of a foam
mat through which the aquarium water flows slowly, assisted by a pump or an air-lift
pump. On average the water in an aquarium is filtered two to three times per hour with
this system. We have been using these filters for more than 25 years in our company and
have never cleaned them. Over the years a microbial culture has developed in our filter
mats which helps considerably to improve water quality and hence keep the fish healthy.
Since the water throughflow has not yet halved, we do not yet have to clean our filters,
even after 25 years.



Cleaning filters


An aquarium filter should not be cleaned until the throughflow of the water is halved. The
longer these filters are not cleaned, the better the biological balance in the aquarium and
the better the health of your fish.Aquarium filters, interior and exterior filters, have a filter
chamber containing the filter material.
This material is normally structured in layers; the top layer often consists of filter floss.
Removeonly the top layer from the filter and put it in a bucket with two to three litres of
water from the aquarium. Now squeeze out the filter material several times in the water.
Do not rinse it using water from the tap since the valuable microbial culture which has
gradually built up will be destroyed. Then return the filter material to the filter and reduce
the normal amount of food by 50 per cent in the next two to three days. This will return
the filter from a reduced level to its original level of performance.
If you have pure foam filters, remove the whole foam mat and squeeze it out once or
twice in a bucket with water from the aquarium.

[DanDiscus]

In my sump I have today a 200 u filter sock to catch the big stuff.

I do not plan in touching or moving the 2 Filter Matt I am using as divider, for ever.

Have you watched Discus Hans youtube video about water changing ?

If you pay attention, he shows that all the tanks overflow over a first layer of Matt filter. He said he does not need to touch that filter for years. He does not use anything before it. Just all goes through the filter. Then he flush the bottom of the sump to collect all lose debris. Then he fill the sump and done.


In my case I use the filter sock, but I am starting to be tire to replace it every 3 days. I am thinking in modifying that section by placing another matt wall and allowing the overflow water drip in another matt foam in horizontal position (like discuss Hans video). So water will drip there, big dirt will be collected on it. Then it will go down and follow the current through the new wall, then chamber with plants and then chamber with Matrix and return pump. Just a plan for now.

Cheers

[DanDiscus]

About your question concerning "magic" it's all about biology.

Yes, you need to take poop/food from your tank. That helps. But, if you have an equilibrium where you do not overfeed and do not have a big bioload then the bacterias in the filter will handle the degradation of the poop/food. You are feeding them. When you brake that equilibrium, the problems arise. A good way of keeping an extra control are the periodic water changes and cleaning the bottom, as a minimum follow Stendker suggestions for adults Discus.

Nothing is MAGIC..... it is biology. But remember that rivers are huge and they keep the balance. You have a glass cage. You need to help the system by periodic maintenance. But do not need to be crazy with the filter. You have your working bacterias there.

Cheers

[Filip]

Thanks for carrying to explain your reasoning behind this theory Dan.
Although I do find the theory first and foremost not fully completed and second , contradictory .

Not complete because it only address the autotrophic beneficial bacteria in the filter and forgets to mention the organic carbon eating heterotrophic bacteria that also lives in our filters and thrives in areas/ filters filled with dirt/Carbon as dirt /sludge being their main food source .
And most of experienced discus keepers agrees that these heterotrophic pathogens are the main problem for discus wellbeing , and not the No3 levels in the water .
Plus heterotropics are space occupying bacteria and they compete with autotrophs for surface area and space in our filters and they can easily outcompete the good guys if unlimited food source is offered to them.

And second contradictory because it still advocates clean tanks or barebottom tanks , regular siphoning and poop removal but in the same time waiting for filters to clog from poop and sludge .

Anyway Dan to each his own . This forum is open for constructive debates and many different and opposed opinions .

[atlantadiscus]

......and yet both Stendker Germany and Discus Hans USA utilize this method and have obviously excellent results based on the quality of their Discus.....go figure.

[Filip]

......and yet both Stendker Germany and Discus Hans USA utilize this method and have obviously excellent results based on the quality of their Discus.....go figure.

My guess is a good prefiltration .Or keeping the BB tanks squicky clean and 100 % poop free with siphoning.
Otherwise foams wouldn't run 25 years unclogged .
In fact they wouldn't last 25 days unclogged IMO.

[atlantadiscus]

They have no pre filters as far as I saw,and water changes at Hans are 1/3 every day or every other day according to him.Sometimes I think we make Discus keeping much harder than it needs to be,with diminishing returns for the extra effort exerted.

[Neptune]

I could see these foam filters lasting awhile if the water was heavily filtered before the foam and they were not doing any mechanical filtration so all they had to do was provide a surface area for the nitrifying bacteria. But I find it hard to believe you can bring these filters into "balance" whereby if you have the right bioload and don't over feed, the bacteria can take care of the solids that get trapped in the filter. They don't work that fast, eventually you will have a build up of mulm.

Hard to debate the success of these pros, but I don't think we are getting the whole story if we are to think they just throw this foam in a filter and don't clean it for years.

[talkdiscustome]

I agree with you. We're taking it too far when all our fishy friend needs are clean water and TLC

[farebox]

In my sump I use a piece of mattenfilter (45PPI) laying flat in plastic food container with holes drilled in the bottom in so water drips down on top the K1. Works just like Hans and just clean once a month. The other two mattenfilter separating the sump sections I haven't cleaned in a year. I have setup my system that's works best for me, besides I'm a firm believer in during the required water changes every other for my discus. I love having healthy and not sick fish for enjoyment of the hobby. Go with the best filtration that will work for you with ease. Keep it simple baby....

[talkdiscustome]

In my sump I use a piece of mattenfilter (45PPI) laying flat in plastic food container with holes drilled in the bottom in so water drips down on top the K1. Works just like Hans and just clean once a month. The other two mattenfilter separating the sump sections I haven't cleaned in a year. I have setup my system that's works best for me, besides I'm a firm believer in during the required water changes every other for my discus. I love having healthy and not sick fish for enjoyment of the hobby. Go with the best filtration that will work for you with ease. Keep it simple baby....

I finally finished the sump, like you suggested, i bought 2 poret foam filters and divided the 20 gallon tank into 3 sections, one for where the water goes in from the tank, in the middle, i have some leftover sponges, ceramic rings, the colorful scrubbies and i filled my old socks with zeolite and the 3rd section's for the water return with the water pump and the water heater. also, bought another bottle of Tetra safe start and poured it in the sump. i am still running my canister and 2 sponge filters.. talk about too much filtration huh! LOL

[farebox]

Glad you took my recommendations, once the filters setup you should have an crystal clear tank with very little maintenance. Post pics of sump when you can, love to see it.

[rickztahone]

Pics?