Water Change Myth?

[AndreyDaGiant]

I see when it comes to discus people do very often even daily religious Water changes right I mean I get it discus are delicate to water chemistry but all fish are more or less right? I understand but at the same note I believe how to keep discus over all is over rated! if your stock/bio load has the proper filtration then why so much work? I know a older guy who has a very old style of keeping fish isn't computer savy never heard of this site and keeps discus and has been for over 20 years changes his water twice a month runs a 65 gallon tall with with a fluval canister not sure what model but its his only recent upgrade and cleans that once a month and its his only form of filtration said hes had it for two years now keeps 8 discus that grew out in that tank and two cory cats at the moment and has no issues. His discus are what look to me to be full grown or close to it his discus are from hans in B-more and look gr8 sorry don't have pics as my phone is having issues right now will post later when I get it fixed but why do people work so hard for there discus I mean other than being expensive the care seems to me like any other fish you should keep! I know there are reasons to do extensive work like growing them fast you should do a lot of WCs or over stocking the tank you do a lot of WCs caring for disease do a lot of WCs or breeding exc.......... I get it! but if these are not your concerns is it possible to be modest with correct filtration to bio load like my old friend Walter has done for many years? or is he a special case? I mean I don't keep discus yet and im planning on getting into the discus game but im reconsidering if its gonna become a part time job lol and one more question I know discus come from very acidic water in the wild so does mother nature do as many water changes? or is where they come from a constant exchange? and is there any other fish that fish that so called requires this much attention to keep on the market? I saw a video where Hans explains keeping discus is like keeping anything else the problem is the price tag so people say the are so fragile I know hans has fish bread to deal with higher PHs then what they come from in the wild but lets be real most of yall from what I can see are not keeping wild discus so if not once again why so much work? thanx to whoever responds in advance your good friend ADG OH by the way my old friend walter has play sand substrate with fake tree trunks as decore!

[Filip]

Growing discus and also properly growing any other fish requires daily multiple feedings with daily maintenance in order to optimise good growth and good health.
Once they are grown , you can set back your routine a bit , but you still have to stay diligent on order to keep the discus heathy.
After my discus grew I change 3 times a week 70% water and feed them only once to twice daily with dry foods as a staple .
I change this much simply because my discus tells me so . Just listen to them and you will know whether you are on the right track . if I cut back from the WCs a bit they start to show fin rot , pimples , sratcing or darting, less activity , less appetite etc.etc.
So my advice to optimise your WC routine for the grown discus is to start with more or the most , and gradually experiment with less and less until you find your perfect routine . Once you experience troubles along the way , go back to more / the most , and start again .
Hope this doesn't sounded much confusing :)

P.S And don't worry about the nature filtration system , its in Gods hands , and he is much more experienced than us here on SD :)

[Neptune]

pH is not an issue with domestics. People are successful with tap water ranging from 6 to 8. However breeding requires a certain pH level for the eggs to hatch.
Filip is right on...the fish will tell you

[Second Hand Pat]

I have found that GH plays a more important role in breeding then pH. Soft water (GH of 4 or less) allows the eggs to hatch easier then in hard water. Hard water tends to make the eggs calcify and turn hard which doesn't allow them to hatch.
Pat

[Larry Bugg]

Let's start off with the myth about the Amazon and natures water changes. The Amazon river pours 60 million gallons of water into the Pacific every second. The amount is so great that the ocean's salinity is affected up to 100 miles offshore. Talk about water changes to the extreme...............

To better understand what is needed in the way of water changes with discus you must first divide them into three distinct groups. Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months, juvies age 5 months to 1 year and adults. IMO, each of these three groups have very different requirements when it comes to water changes.

Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months are in a high growth stage, up to 1" per month. At this age we find that they can be very adversely affected by bacteria in the water. The bacteria feeds on dissolved organic compounds (docs) in the water column. The docs come from left over food and detritus in the tank. At the higher temps we keep discus the bacteria can grow very quickly. The only way to really keep these docs at a minimum is through water changes so during this stage of the discus life we recommend doing very large water changes daily. Experience has proven that this is necessary if you want to grow out a discus to it's full potential. One other point to keep in mind is that in the Amazon the PH is typically very low, much lower than the Ph in most of our tanks. At this low PH bacteria is inhibited and is not present like it is in our tanks.

At 4 to 5 months in age the growth rate of a discus slows drastically. Their growth will be closer to 1" every 2 to 3 months. With this slower growth rate we find that we are able to cut back on the amount of water we change daily. Instead of doing 80 to 100% water changes at this stage you can cut back to 50 to 60% a day depending on your stocking level. In my case, since I'm breeding discus, my tanks will be over stocked so I will continue doing the larger water changes but with a tank that isn't overstocked this shouldn't be necessary.

At 12 months a discus has matured and although it may continue to grow for the next 6 to 9 months, this growth will be very slight compared to the previous year of growth. At maturity it is my belief and experience that you can cut back to doing 30 to 40% water changes every three days or so and the discus will do just fine.

I don't believe you are doing any species of fish justice doing 2 water changes a month. The fish may live but I would bet that they are not doing as good as they should be and it certainly isn't optimal for them. If you want to keep fish in a closed system then you should be willing to give them the best care possible to keep them in optimal conditions. JMO. I have kept and bred many other species of fish and at a minimum I do weekly or in most cases biweekly changes.

I have to add a disclaimer. As with any forum of this nature you will find a lot of post from people who have the best interest at heart but don't have the knowledge or experience necessary to make the post they do. Quite often they repeat what they have read from other posters and often what they repeat may be out of context. You will find post here that state that you have to do large daily water changes on discus no matter the age. Post like this are the ones that make us look like fanatics. I guess we are fanatics lol, but not to the extreme they make it seem.

What I posted above is based on my experience growing, keeping and breeding discus along with what I have learned from many long time discus keepers/breeders. There are always variables that will affect the results like tank size, bioload and filtration so take my suggestions as a starting point.

[Filip]

A very thorough , precise and informative response Larry.
TFS your experience with us .

[AndreyDaGiant]

Thanx Larry you clear that up! lol

[DanDiscus]

To the OP. Go to discus Stendked German internet site and read how to keep their Discus. If you are interested on Discus Hans USA fish they are great and there you will have all the info to keep them.

Best and enjoy the hobby

[atlantadiscus]

To the OP. Go to discus Stendked German internet site and read how to keep their Discus. If you are interested on Discus Hans USA fish they are great and there you will have all the info to keep them.

Best and enjoy the hobby

I am sure you meant to type STENDKER Discus,but yeah,interesting they only recommend 1/3 of the tanks volume be changed ONCE per week to properly care for their fish.......must be bred tough,lol.Based on their quality of fish and length of time as breeders,makes one wonder??????

[LizStreithorst]

I have found that GH plays a more important role in breeding then pH. Soft water (GH of 4 or less) allows the eggs to hatch easier then in hard water. Hard water tends to make the eggs calcify and turn hard which doesn't allow them to hatch.
Pat

You know what, Pat? I have had a gH of 0 since I've started keeping fish. I was told that with 0 gH growth and development would be a problem. This has not been the case. My kH is 4 to 4.5. My aged water's pH is 7.2. You'd think I'd be able to breed in water with those parameters but I can't without using RO. Water is a mystery to me.

[DanDiscus]

I am sure you meant to type STENDKER Discus,but yeah,interesting they only recommend 1/3 of the tanks volume be changed ONCE per week to properly care for their fish.......must be bred tough,lol.Based on their quality of fish and length of time as breeders,makes one wonder??????

Yes....sorry for the typo. I have been following their indications since I have my tank. Still has not been a lot of time, but so far so good. I have started with 4" Discus.

I am mot going to comment about breeding or growing discus because i have 0 experience. I like to talk with some experience. So far so good with my Stendker discus following their indications.

Best !!

[atlantadiscus]

Awesome,keep us updated! Based on their long standing success{50+ years} and reputation as one of the top Discus breeders in the world,I would feel confident in following their recommendations for THEIR fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

You know what, Pat? I have had a gH of 0 since I've started keeping fish. I was told that with 0 gH growth and development would be a problem. This has not been the case. My kH is 4 to 4.5. My aged water's pH is 7.2. You'd think I'd be able to breed in water with those parameters but I can't without using RO. Water is a mystery to me.

It is a mystery to me too Liz and I simply let the fish tell me if they are happy. The fish know lol.
Pat

[afriend]

Larry,

Thank you for your organized, detailed and well prepared post on this subject. I find it very refreshing that yours, and all of the other posts to the OP, are positive and helpful. Usually when the subject of why large water exchange is necessary, there are comments like "just make large water changes because that is what works and KISS (keep it simple stupid)". I happen to be one of those people that wants to know why, and I believe that understanding is one of the keys to success in life. For many years now, I have advocated that the primary reason for water changes and tank maintenance is to reduce the amount of organic compounds that pathogens feed on and thus reduce their numbers.

I would welcome your comments and thoughts on two my observations of your post:


at this age we find that they can be very adversely affected by bacteria in the water

Why not include all forms of pathogens, including bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus?


at this low PH bacteria is inhibited and is not present like it is in our tanks

My understanding is that there are less pathogens present in lower PH water and that most of them are completely different than those at a higher PH.

I would like to offer some additional information that may assist in understanding why discus require large water changes:

1) Many of the strains of discus available today have evolved in water with a low PH for thousands of years. As such their immune systems (which is determined by their DNA) have adapted to the quantity and types of pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites, and fungus) that are common to their native habitat. It turns out that water with higher PH has not only many more pathogens, but also a different type. Thus fish that are kept at a higher PH are much more sensitive to attack from unfamiliar pathogens. Young discus are especially vulnerable because their immune system will develop and adapt as they age.

2) Another important consideration results because discus are quite sensitive and become easily stressed. Stress can be caused by changes in water parameters (PH, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate), temperature, lighting, motion outside the tank, pecking order, and other factors. Water that is not biologically clean also causes stress. When discus become stressed, they often become lethargic and refuse to eat. When this happens, their immune system weakens and they are much more subject to attack from pathogens.

Paul

[chuckiesmalls]

+1

Let's start off with the myth about the Amazon and natures water changes. The Amazon river pours 60 million gallons of water into the Pacific every second. The amount is so great that the ocean's salinity is affected up to 100 miles offshore. Talk about water changes to the extreme...............

To better understand what is needed in the way of water changes with discus you must first divide them into three distinct groups. Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months, juvies age 5 months to 1 year and adults. IMO, each of these three groups have very different requirements when it comes to water changes.

Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months are in a high growth stage, up to 1" per month. At this age we find that they can be very adversely affected by bacteria in the water. The bacteria feeds on dissolved organic compounds (docs) in the water column. The docs come from left over food and detritus in the tank. At the higher temps we keep discus the bacteria can grow very quickly. The only way to really keep these docs at a minimum is through water changes so during this stage of the discus life we recommend doing very large water changes daily. Experience has proven that this is necessary if you want to grow out a discus to it's full potential. One other point to keep in mind is that in the Amazon the PH is typically very low, much lower than the Ph in most of our tanks. At this low PH bacteria is inhibited and is not present like it is in our tanks.

At 4 to 5 months in age the growth rate of a discus slows drastically. Their growth will be closer to 1" every 2 to 3 months. With this slower growth rate we find that we are able to cut back on the amount of water we change daily. Instead of doing 80 to 100% water changes at this stage you can cut back to 50 to 60% a day depending on your stocking level. In my case, since I'm breeding discus, my tanks will be over stocked so I will continue doing the larger water changes but with a tank that isn't overstocked this shouldn't be necessary.

At 12 months a discus has matured and although it may continue to grow for the next 6 to 9 months, this growth will be very slight compared to the previous year of growth. At maturity it is my belief and experience that you can cut back to doing 30 to 40% water changes every three days or so and the discus will do just fine.

I don't believe you are doing any species of fish justice doing 2 water changes a month. The fish may live but I would bet that they are not doing as good as they should be and it certainly isn't optimal for them. If you want to keep fish in a closed system then you should be willing to give them the best care possible to keep them in optimal conditions. JMO. I have kept and bred many other species of fish and at a minimum I do weekly or in most cases biweekly changes.

I have to add a disclaimer. As with any forum of this nature you will find a lot of post from people who have the best interest at heart but don't have the knowledge or experience necessary to make the post they do. Quite often they repeat what they have read from other posters and often what they repeat may be out of context. You will find post here that state that you have to do large daily water changes on discus no matter the age. Post like this are the ones that make us look like fanatics. I guess we are fanatics lol, but not to the extreme they make it seem.

What I posted above is based on my experience growing, keeping and breeding discus along with what I have learned from many long time discus keepers/breeders. There are always variables that will affect the results like tank size, bioload and filtration so take my suggestions as a starting point.

[Larry Bugg]

A very thorough , precise and informative response Larry.
TFS your experience with us .


Larry,

Thank you for your organized, detailed and well prepared post on this subject. I find it very refreshing that yours, and all of the other posts to the OP, are positive and helpful. Usually when the subject of why large water exchange is necessary, there are comments like "just make large water changes because that is what works and KISS (keep it simple stupid)". I happen to be one of those people that wants to know why, and I believe that understanding is one of the keys to success in life. For many years now, I have advocated that the primary reason for water changes and tank maintenance is to reduce the amount of organic compounds that pathogens feed on and thus reduce their numbers.

I would welcome your comments and thoughts on two my observations of your post:



Why not include all forms of pathogens, including bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus?



My understanding is that there are less pathogens present in lower PH water and that most of them are completely different than those at a higher PH.

I would like to offer some additional information that may assist in understanding why discus require large water changes:

1) Many of the strains of discus available today have evolved in water with a low PH for thousands of years. As such their immune systems (which is determined by their DNA) have adapted to the quantity and types of pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites, and fungus) that are common to their native habitat. It turns out that water with higher PH has not only many more pathogens, but also a different type. Thus fish that are kept at a higher PH are much more sensitive to attack from unfamiliar pathogens. Young discus are especially vulnerable because their immune system will develop and adapt as they age.

2) Another important consideration results because discus are quite sensitive and become easily stressed. Stress can be caused by changes in water parameters (PH, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate), temperature, lighting, motion outside the tank, pecking order, and other factors. Water that is not biologically clean also causes stress. When discus become stressed, they often become lethargic and refuse to eat. When this happens, their immune system weakens and they are much more subject to attack from pathogens.

Paul

Filip, Paul - Thanks for the kind words!

Paul,
Bacteria is what comes to mind first. Your use of pathogens certainly fits the description MUCH better. I will definitely use that is other post. I also think that your points 1 and 2 take what I was trying to say and expands on it greatly. I think both of those points are a great follow up to my thoughts. I might borrow them also if you don't mind, lol.

I alluded to one of the reasons I feel it is necessary for us to go into some detail when giving advice. I strongly believe that people without experience about a subject really shouldn't be giving advice but unfortunately there are always going to be those who just have to be involved and are going to "pass on" the experience of others and give advice. Unfortunately they give partial info or info that deals with a slightly different situation and it leaves those who are looking for advice with bad advice. Hopefully if I give some detail with my answer my experience won't be passed on to others as "all discus need large daily water changes". This is why you won't find me giving advice when it comes to most medical issues with discus. I don't have the knowledge and experience to give advice so I leave it to others rather than trying to give advice based on others experiences. Ok, that's my rant.

[afriend]

Larry,


I also think that your points 1 and 2 take what I was trying to say and expands on it greatly. I think both of those points are a great follow up to my thoughts. I might borrow them also if you don't mind, lol.

Please, by all means, do so. Also, I have posted thoughts about this subject and others on my Homestead page, use those too if you find them helpful.

[brady]

I know this an old post but in Larry's post #5, there is 1 error.
The Amazon river empties into the Atlantic, not the Pacific.
Jay

[pastry]

Brady... I have a very similar problem.... if I see a tag sticking out of a stranger's shirt then I tell them (and a few dozen times when the don't know what I'm alerting them to, I just tuck the damn thing in)... I also will tell anyone (even a CEO of a publicly traded, billion $ company that the have a hanger... but I'm not touching it)... yet no one will tell me that my fly is down until the end of the day :confused:

Yep, if I saw that post then I would've done the same (5 years later). BUT... we now all get to bust vcd Larry's balls!!! :antlers: