long time and frustating problem with wild discus

[andre senna]

Good night! I am keeping wild discus since 2014. The first problem is that some of the fishes never get used to processed foods, they get and spit it out, always. months ago, one of the fishes that used to eat very well started to spit out the pellets too, and started to accept only freeze dried foods, just like the others. then, they stop to eat at all.
Now, others are stopping to eat, losing weight, and showhing white stringy feces .some are still eating freeze dried brine shrimp , bloodworms and daphnia. others are doing very well, eating everything and with great colors and body shape. some fishes that used to eat only freeze dried foods are doing well, besides this, and never showed white feces.

I did many fecal tests, all negative. the only thing that I found is some tetrahynema, from the feces from the sand of the tank. I tried everything :
metronidazole powder for five days, flagyl for five days, azoo discus anti endoparasites, levamisole once a week for 3 weeks, nematol, flagellol, tremazol...nothing works. I lost one fish, very skinny, and have three fishes in bad shape now, eating only brine shrimp, but losing weight, very slow. Another issue : sometimes, just one of the fishes at time showed increased mucus production, and suddenly close the fins and get dark, then I took it off in a hospital tank , with some meds,for external parasites, and they recovered very quickly, then came back to the tank. It stops when I decided to buffer the water with alkaline and acid buffer

My tank size is 125 gal, 12 adult discus, water change now every trhee or two days, as I am feeding more brine shrimp. no ammonia or nitrites, very low general hardness, less than 50 ppm, carbonate hardness 2,4 dkh, ph 7,5. I decided not to try to lower it , reading this forum. Now I am trying to balance the ph using alkaline and acid buffer, but I think that the only way to get a low ph is using discus buffer with neutral regulator. My water is strange, low harness and alkaline ph. it changes from 7,2 for 7,5 in 24 hours, and I do not age the water. I change 50 % of the water. the filtration is two canisters with siporax for 600 liters and matrix for 400 liters. All the fishes came from hek discus, from alenquer, some are curuai and some are nhamunda. I keep no other fishes. no plants , and a very thin layer of sand.

Sorry for the long post, I am really frustated, to see some of my fishes not eating, losing weight and lethargic, while others are doing very well. I do not know what to do anymore. P.s : the dominant ones never get sick

Thanks for any advice!

[Filip]

Sorry for the late response and for your current problems Senna.
I do remeber that you have a beautiful colelction of stunning wilds and a simple and clean tank.
Stringy and white feces is ussualy a sign for condition commonly and generally known as Hexamita or a Hex.
It is treated with Metro or Flagyl in Europe (assuming by your name that you are from France ) and elevated temps.

You should treat metro/Flagyl for severe cases such as yours in high dosage 400-500 mg per 10 gallon and it should be treated 14 days , not just 5 like you did .
It is also adivsable to do this treatment along with elevated temps. 32-33 C to challenge the fish appetite and immune system .
More than 50 % daily WCs followed by a redose , after the lights turn off .
Appetite oftenly will regain very slowly , 2-3 weeks after your first dose for the first discus bite , so dont loose hope and endure the full 14 day procedure .

Good luck and i expect a positive feedback from you in a couple of weeks .

[andre senna]

Thank you very much! I am from Brazil! I was thinking about using that dose, with a longer term treatment, but I was so discouraged...now, after hearing it from you , I will try again. I should keep the lights off all day? the last tratment I put it every 12 hours, lights off, but just for five days.

Another thing : I do not know why they are getting sick...do you think that I should try to reduce the ph? it is really important for alenquers ? some'' fish experts '' here told me that it is the reason why they are sick. I have very low carbonate hardness, 2,4 dkh and some people advise me to use discus buffer with neutral regulator, as my ph is not stable , and phosphate buffers should do the job. what do you think ?

[Filip]

Thank you very much! I am from Brazil! I was thinking about using that dose, with a longer term treatment, but I was so discouraged...now, after hearing it from you , I will try again. I should keep the lights off all day? the last tratment I put it every 12 hours, lights off, but just for five days.

Another thing : I do not know why they are getting sick...do you think that I should try to reduce the ph? it is really important for alenquers ? some'' fish experts '' here told me that it is the reason why they are sick. I have very low carbonate hardness, 2,4 dkh and some people advise me to use discus buffer with neutral regulator, as my ph is not stable , and phosphate buffers should do the job. what do you think ?

Oh , sorry Senna it sounded Franch to me . But silly me , how could i forget about the legend Ayrton Senna :)

If the discus are in severe and prolonged hunger strike followed by a white stringy feces you can aim the dose even higher 500-600 mg per gallon .
Not that i advise you to go higher than 500 mg , but im simply encouraging you not to be scared by metronidazole , since it is a mild medication with little harm effects on discus . As for light i read about theories on the net about photosensitivity of Metro. and just to stay on the safe side i dose it in night after a waterchange , right after lights turn out , or right after i go to sleep .You can put the lights on after 10 hours since after that time the potency of the antibiotic is allmost if not all expired /diminished.

As for any antibiotic treatment duration try to remember- No antibiotic shoud be applied less then 10 days . 2 weeks is even safer bet.

Reading through many breeders and experienced members threads here on SD i can see that most of them agree that PH isnt important for discus well being unless its extreme , more than 8.5 or less than 5.5.
However they all agree on one thing , and that is - PH stability is very important - . So if you are sure you have ph swings due to low KH and you have measured and confirmed it. Than i assume it might be your main culprit for discus immunity deterioration .
The second(in your case) and the most ussual suspect is offcourse Water quallity.

[andre senna]

Thanks Filip. As I change lots of water, no great swings at all. But the water goes from 7 to 7,2 in 24 hours. I do not age my water, because of lack of space. The dominant fishes never get sick. Maybe they put the others under stress, and they get sick. I think twelve discus in my tank are too much.

The funny thing is, I am a veterinarian, and I do not use to prescribe just five days of antibiotics to my patients! (most birds). In this case, I just followed my books instructions without thinking right. I am always afraid of side effects by putting drugs in the water, I lost all of my fishes once, with febendazole. In this case we are not treating bacteria, but 5 days really is not enough for sure.

[andre senna]

good morning ! I started the treatment. Do I have to use something to dissolve the metronidazole powder, ,or just dissolve it in a small container ? I am changing 50 % of the water everyday, today I saw some fishes with only one gill working...I am using prime in the tank, and filling it with tapwater right away.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Andre, I use warm water to dissolve my metro in prior to adding it to the tank.

Can you tell us a bit about your tank and fish. It sounds like you might have a stressor affecting your fish long term. I agree that overcrowding could be a factor.
Pat

[andre senna]

Hi Andre, I use warm water to dissolve my metro in prior to adding it to the tank.

Can you tell us a bit about your tank and fish. It sounds like you might have a stressor affecting your fish long term. I agree that overcrowding could be a factor.
Pat

Thank you! I tried the warm water, it worked just fine. how much warm it should be? I am afraid of the inactivation of the drug.

My tank is a 125 gal, 12 adult discus. there is one very dominant. they came from HEK discus. some of these fishes never ate flakes or granules, just freeze dried foods. my tapwater is 7-7,2 ph, the aquarium water goes to 7,6. The DKH is about 2,4. low general hardness. Ammonia and nitrite zero. No plants, thin layer of sand. one piece of driftwood. I used to do water changes twice a week, now every 3 days. 2 canisters, cleaned once a week or two. food twice a day. Always some cyanobacteria, and brown algae. I use prime in the water changes.

Besides the white feces, sometimes there is increased mucus, like a web, hanging from their bodies, and gill problems, white mucus, like flakes, from the gills, gasping, and breathing by just one gill. A mild gill hyperplasia in two fishes. these problems comes and goes, now, whit this treatment, it gets worst. I am changing water everyday and not aging it. they get better when I started to use acid and alkaline buffer, but I stopped it because of this treatment. five days of treatment now, and still some have white feces, I think it is normal. I hope that it works ! it is sad to see nice fishes eating but still losing weight.

[nc0gnet0]

I tried everything :
metronidazole powder for five days, flagyl for five days, azoo discus anti endoparasites, levamisole once a week for 3 weeks, nematol, flagellol, tremazol...nothing works.

That's a lot of medication to subject your fish too. You sure you might not now be seeing side effects from over medication?

Rick

[andre senna]

That's a lot of medication to subject your fish too. You sure you might not now be seeing side effects from over medication?

Rick

I really do not like to medicate the fishes, even with no precise diagnose...but as they are stoping to eat , showing white feces and losing weight, I had to try something .I wanted to stop , and take the sick fishes out, but then more fishes got sick.

[nc0gnet0]

I really do not like to medicate the fishes, even with no precise diagnose...but as they are stoping to eat , showing white feces and losing weight, I had to try something .I wanted to stop , and take the sick fishes out, but then more fishes got sick.

I understand, but at this point not sure I could recommend even more meds......... not at least without a conclusive diagnosis. Since your a vet, I would suggest sacrificing the one that is in the worse shape, euthanize and dissect. What you should then do is to scope the interior stomach and small intestines looking for granulomas.

By the way, I remember seeing some of your fish, they were gorgeous. Do you have any recent pics?

[andre senna]

That's a lot of medication to subject your fish too. You sure you might not now be seeing side effects from over medication?

Rick

All these medications were used with some interval , more than months sometimes. This will be the last try. if it not work, I will send a fish to necropsy ,to really know what I am dealing with.

[andre senna]

I write it before read your answer!I should have done it before. Some are not so gorgeous anymore...it is sad

[andre senna]

I write it before read your answer!I should have done it before. Some are not so gorgeous anymore...it is sad

I mean, I wrote it before to read your answer. sorry about my english!

[andre senna]

I understand, but at this point not sure I could recommend even more meds......... not at least without a conclusive diagnosis. Since your a vet, I would suggest sacrificing the one that is in the worse shape, euthanize and dissect. What you should then do is to scope the interior stomach and small intestines looking for granulomas.

By the way, I remember seeing some of your fish, they were gorgeous. Do you have any recent pics?

When you told me to look for granulomas, you are talking about hex? if i find it, it means that the fish could not be treated? I thought about tuberculosis ...skinny fishes can ever recover?

[andre senna]

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[andre senna]

hello! 12 days of treatment now, 500mg of metronidazole per 40 liters, still no improvement. two fishes showing white feces, one still eating besides this.

I am dissolving the metro in warm water, lights off. Maybe it is not hexamita , or I did something wrong...it is sad .I really need a precise diagnose now.


Thank you! Any thoughts?

[Second Hand Pat]

Did you raise the temperature?
Pat

[andre senna]

No, I keep it at 30-31 celsius.

[andre senna]

hello! an update: all Fishes are looking better , some are eating freeze dried foods again.

One of the fishes was in really bad shape and I put it down today and did a necropsy,in a laboratory, we found nothing. no parasites in the intestines. We have collected the organs for hystopathology. let's see if we find something

in one of the samples from another fish we found sand in the feces. And I remember that saw a fish with trouble to expell a ''mass'' full of sand one time. Maybe swallow sand can hurt the intestines of the fishes ?

Should I raise the temperature to 34 celsius now, for a while ?

Thank you!

[Second Hand Pat]

Good news on the fish. I would suggest 31-32 for a week. 34 is a bit high and makes the fish work hard.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Andre,
One thing to note with Discus, particularly wilds. Being cichlids they are aggressive to one another and can hoard food. You mentioned your dominant ones never get sick. Often times a discus thats dominant can intimidate and stress out less dominant fish without even appearing to chase it or attack it. Its the signals the dominant one sends by posture, pattern display, and just down right attitude. In the wild the weaker fish would vacate the area, in a tank it has no where to go. We see this with domestics too, but in wilds it can be extreme . A stressed Discus will lose its appetite, get sick, waste away and often will pass intestinal lining. Your information posted and the lack of parasites indicates that this could be whats happening.

My advice is to start up a second wild tank, and keep your weaker ones in it... You will still have dominance issues but you may be able to nurse back to health the weaker ones if they have some time to rest.

Best always,
al

[andre senna]

Good news on the fish. I would suggest 31-32 for a week. 34 is a bit high and makes the fish work hard.
Pat

Thank you! I read about raise the temperature to 36 celsius to cure hexamita, only by heat, I think is a little extreme...

[andre senna]

Andre,
One thing to note with Discus, particularly wilds. Being cichlids they are aggressive to one another and can hoard food. You mentioned your dominant ones never get sick. Often times a discus thats dominant can intimidate and stress out less dominant fish without even appearing to chase it or attack it. Its the signals the dominant one sends by posture, pattern display, and just down right attitude. In the wild the weaker fish would vacate the area, in a tank it has no where to go. We see this with domestics too, but in wilds it can be extreme . A stressed Discus will lose its appetite, get sick, waste away and often will pass intestinal lining. Your information posted and the lack of parasites indicates that this could be whats happening.

My advice is to start up a second wild tank, and keep your weaker ones in it... You will still have dominance issues but you may be able to nurse back to health the weaker ones if they have some time to rest.

Best always,
al

I think you can be right, there is one very dominant fish, and it really show display colours like white bars, 3 black bars when it is ready to attack, or one black bar when it is calm. I think it's very interesting about wilds. I fell that the others are intimidated only by it's presence, and it chases the other fishes often. maybe I should remove this fish, but I like it. No discus keeper should have just one tank!

[andre senna]

what about the sand? I just got some stringy feces in my hand, samashed it and it wass full of sand! that fish is eating well, active, but passing white feces sometimes. maybe the sand is blocking and irritating their intestines? it is a fine pool sand.

I thought about a BB tank,whith some rocks and woods, but I think I will need to be clean it every day.

The increase of the temperature is really necessary? it is at 30 celsius, without a heater. I do not trust the heaters we find over here...

[andre senna]

Sorry, I mean, I smash the feces, and it was full of sand. I forgot to say, the only fish that died, I saw it pass a large sandy feces days before. it is normal for discus eat so much sand ?

[andre senna]

Sadly, the problem persists. this fish is eating normally ,but losing weight. The long feces is from another fish, not eating .Last picture is from two healthy fishes. 103217103218103219