Desirable pair?

[Simplejustin]

got a group of 6 tiger turqs a little while back, a pair formed and I gave them a 29 to themselves. The eggs turned to wigglers and they would die everytime, falling off the cone. After 7 spawns I put them back in the community tank. In there, the female from the original pair decided to spawn with another male also from the group of 6 tigers. The same results from their spawn. I have had another pair spawn and raise fry in the same system as this one, so I pretty much have it down to genetics. I have a snakeskin that I think is a male, and im wondering what people think of the pair. I heard the pair would be "ok" or "compatible" but I'm looking for more opinions.

[nc0gnet0]

Can we see pictures (preferable upright :) ) of the successful spawn and wigglers? I am not so sure I would pass it off to genetics just yet. The pair are compatible yes, but it kind of defeats the purpose of using a tiger turq.

[Simplejustin]

Not sure what to do about them not being upright, they are upright when I upload them..

[Simplejustin]

I don't have any pics of the successful spawn and wigglers, but here are the parents.

[Simplejustin]

To clarify, the above pics are from the pair that had a successful spawn in the same system.

[Simplejustin]

This was the original pair.

[Simplejustin]

AND THIS IS THE SNAKESKIN POTENTIAL MALE....SIDEWAYS...:p

[nc0gnet0]

I don't have any pics of the successful spawn and wigglers, but here are the parents.

What happened to the fry from the successful pair?

[Simplejustin]

They are growing out now.

[Simplejustin]

HOPEFULLY THESE DO NOT COME OUT RIGHT SIDE UP...:grin:
TRIED EDITING THEM BEFORE UPLOADING. FINGERS CROSSED

[nc0gnet0]

How many of fry do you have?

[Simplejustin]

COMPUTER WORKS MOSTLY IN CAPS LOCK, I ASSURE YOU IM NOT YELLING:o

STARTED OUT WITH 50 FRY FROM THIS BATCH, STARTED LOSING 5-10 A DAY UNTIL I GAVE THEM A PP BATH AND HAVENT LOST ANOTHER SINCE. OUT OF THE ORIGINAL 50, HALF WERE DARK COLORED AND HALF WERE LIGHT COLORED. ALL THE DARK ONES DIED. I AM ASSUMING THEY WERE WEAKER? ABOUT 20 FRY LEFT. EATING BEEF HEART, AND SUPER BEEF HEART FLAKE.

[nc0gnet0]

COMPUTER WORKS MOSTLY IN CAPS LOCK, I ASSURE YOU IM NOT YELLING:o

STARTED OUT WITH 50 FRY FROM THIS BATCH, STARTED LOSING 5-10 A DAY UNTIL I GAVE THEM A PP BATH AND HAVENT LOST ANOTHER SINCE. OUT OF THE ORIGINAL 50, HALF WERE DARK COLORED AND HALF WERE LIGHT COLORED. ALL THE DARK ONES DIED. I AM ASSUMING THEY WERE WEAKER? ABOUT 20 FRY LEFT. EATING BEEF HEART, AND SUPER BEEF HEART FLAKE.

And now we're getting somewhere :)

[nc0gnet0]

got a group of 6 tiger turqs a little while back, a pair formed and I gave them a 29 to themselves. The eggs turned to wigglers and they would die everytime, falling off the cone. After 7 spawns I put them back in the community tank. In there, the female from the original pair decided to spawn with another male also from the group of 6 tigers. The same results from their spawn. I have had another pair spawn and raise fry in the same system as this one, so I pretty much have it down to genetics. I have a snakeskin that I think is a male, and im wondering what people think of the pair. I heard the pair would be "ok" or "compatible" but I'm looking for more opinions.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason the fry from the unsuccessful pair die (they die and fall off the cone) and the fry that died from the successful one might have a common cause? Why are you so quick to say it's genetics? While its possible, I think the more obvious explanation has been staring you in the face all the time. Even 50 is a relatively low survival rate (not knowing how many eggs were laid). I think we need to set aside the genetics explanation and take a closer look at your water quality and tank maintenance in your breeding tanks.

-Rick

[Simplejustin]

Rick,
It did occur to me that there could be a correlation. When the wigglers first started dying I asked around and was told that it could be genetics or bacteria.(ammonia 0, 80% w/c daily, TDS 70, temp 83) So i gave the breeders a PP bath. The next spawn yielded the same results. The eruption pair spawned successfully at this time. About 2 weeks later the adult fish started showing twitching, and darting around the tank and i started losing fry so I gave them another PP bath. This seemed to have improved their appearance a lot. They looked a lot better and the fry stopped dying. Soon after that i started a 10 day antibiotic treatment with minocycline. The fry got the antibiotics as well. All fish stopped all twitching and appear healthy. It was a few days ago that the female layed with the new male and the results were the same as when she paired up with the original male which prompted me to find her another mate. Thanks for your help Rick.

[Simplejustin]

Most if not all fertile eggs hatched. I think the male's aim is a bit off.

[nc0gnet0]

Do you use RO?

[Simplejustin]

No RO

[nc0gnet0]

RO might improve your hatch rate.

I would bleach the breeding tank (also have breeding cone in tank when bleaching) and do a good wipe down of the sides. Drain/refill and add de-chlor/Drain again and refill. Add back your problem pair, and treat them with PP in a 2ppm bath for 4 hours. Drain and refill tank again, and a few hours later add 2 drops per gallon of formalin. Add an established but well rinsed sponge filter several hours after adding formalin. Also, bleach and wipe down water storage barrel and run bleach through your water change hoses. Refill storage barrel after draining and wiping down and add a double dose of dechlor and drain barrel running this water through your water change hoses.

Return to a normal feeding and water change schedule with the breeding pair, paying special attention to doing tank wipe downs with water changes. After pair has spawned, add one drop of formalin per gallon a few hours after they are done. The next day do your normal water change and again add one drop per gallon. Fry should hatch between second and third day, so don't add any more formalin after the second time. Stop feeding pair after the second day of eggs on the cone.

Follow these steps EXACTLY, and tell me if you still have fry falling off the cone and dyeing.

Also, do you have municipal water or well water?

-Rick

[Simplejustin]

I am on municipal water.

Thanks for the plan Rick. I will follow through.

Do you think that the eruption wigglers are stronger than the tiger turq wigglers?
Wouldnt introducing a seasoned sponge to the tank also introduce the nasties we are trying to get rid of?
What is the purpose of the initial 2 drops per gallon of formalin?
As for adding formalin when they spawn, a few hours after I add 1 drop per gallon, them next day water change, replace the formalin i took out, and then leave this concentration and dont do a waterchange until they are wigglers?

[nc0gnet0]

I am on municipal water.

Thanks for the plan Rick. I will follow through.

Do you think that the eruption wigglers are stronger than the tiger turq wigglers?

Possibly, or they just got lucky.


Wouldnt introducing a seasoned sponge to the tank also introduce the nasties we are trying to get rid of?

This is why I want you to clean it well first. rinse, squeeze, rinse, squeeze, rinse squeeze)


What is the purpose of the initial 2 drops per gallon of formalin?

Cleaning up the pair


As for adding formalin when they spawn, a few hours after I add 1 drop per gallon, them next day water change, replace the formalin i took out, and then leave this concentration and dont do a waterchange until they are wigglers?

Yes, make sure they are completely done and settled in before the first 1 drop per gallon dose. Redose the second day after water change at 1 drop per gallon for full tank volume. WC's should continue after the second dose on a daily basis, just don't add any more formalin. I never stop doing WC's with eggs/wigglers except for the first day or so of free swimming during attachment.

-Rick

[MD.David]

Hi Rick,
At one drop per gallon of formalin will this wipe out the benificial bacteria in the spong?


Possibly, or they just got lucky.



This is why I want you to clean it well first. rinse, squeeze, rinse, squeeze, rinse squeeze)



Cleaning up the pair



Yes, make sure they are completely done and settled in before the first 1 drop per gallon dose. Redose the second day after water change at 1 drop per gallon for full tank volume. WC's should continue after the second dose on a daily basis, just don't add any more formalin. I never stop doing WC's with eggs/wigglers except for the first day or so of free swimming during attachment.

-Rick

[Simplejustin]

Rick,
Say the eruptipn pair were to spawn successfully at this point, would you still recommend the same course of action?

[Simplejustin]

One thing That I forgot to mention that could be important is that the wigglers have crooked tails. Im not sure if they are all like that but I have noticed it. Conpletely slipped my mind.

[Simplejustin]

Also, they seem to lose their ability to stick before they die, they die up to an hour after falling off the cone. Also, while on the cone they are not as active as they should be. Wiggling slower than the eruption pair. I have also noticed that they never completely absorb the egg either.

[CliffsDiscus]

One thing That I forgot to mention that could be important is that the wigglers have crooked tails. Im not sure if they are all like that but I have noticed it. Conpletely slipped my mind.

You got any wrigglers that look like a check mark?

Cliff

[Simplejustin]

The crooked tails are not as exagerated as a check mark. But crooked enough to see and Sometimes when they get off the cone and start wiggling in the water column they spiral downward spinning in one direction

[nc0gnet0]

One thing That I forgot to mention that could be important is that the wigglers have crooked tails. Im not sure if they are all like that but I have noticed it. Conpletely slipped my mind.

Yeah, that is an important piece of information. Are they all like that?

[Simplejustin]

Rick,
Im not sure if they are all like that. I am headed to home depot tonight to get bleach and some extra hoses. What could the crooked taips indicate?

Thanks for sticking around Rick, I truly appreciate your willingness to help me.

[nc0gnet0]

Rick,
Im not sure if they are all like that. I am headed to home depot tonight to get bleach and some extra hoses. What could the crooked taips indicate?

Thanks for sticking around Rick, I truly appreciate your willingness to help me.

I honestly have never dealt with that and would have to defer to others, Cliff might have more information. Perhaps a spinal deformity, and possibly TB, but more than likely just bacterial. Complete the course of action I suggested and lets see if the problem persists.

[Simplejustin]

I will bleach the tank and water storage tonight and do the pp bath tomorrow. Thanks

[Simplejustin]

Bleached everything. I need to order formalin, but i see different concentrations available, which one should i buy?

[CliffsDiscus]

Bleached everything. I need to order formalin, but i see different concentrations available, which one should i buy?
I use 37 % formalin (formaldehyde).

Cliff

[Simplejustin]

Thanks Cliff.