ParaGuard - FMG

[Clawhammer]

Hello Everyone.

I just started treating my tank with ParaGuard, which I believe is SeaChem's version of FMG. The bottle says to use a daily dose 5ml / 10 gallons for as long as the fish can tolerate. I have seen recommendations from 7-14 days. Can anyone advise how manage water changes? Should I add the daily dose plus re-dose for the new water?

I am sure I will be asked, i am using this to treat a few minor issues in my tank that have not gone away with frequent water changes and good hygiene. The issues are white patches on the fins (mostly caudal), some flashing, and a couple with a clamped gill. Here are pictures of the fins from this morning.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fQTJ124_GJARMYEZmuyeNclsw7l8eoaMYBqVBSWL4aPrO7cZ_9 VI38IhN2nd9UUNH8ALwZdjZ581sty0NjBJUmHQmSd31clClUvW zlC8osnTIIx8_CHY8Q4hry8iC33v8BbkdrRwdDkXxhcK2hId7f-agTj98ILbRjZYJQnuw4pHspTHLzixCwQzB8VL6VIy4HCDYyzAu uJ1s3oGV0-9u8lhlIG6ixeXVzYReUHXs5X7I5N8umJDpsjlpggP_hYWghZzv gL6yDKzxN3rOSYE4-OYDXmQMpck8VFIIgiJ2I0H602eLkbEUMZ_I8lXvVOhql5XqgNS VxQ3vYsSC9SxluKecpcWAMfAH_UH6CH1T08koJqlm5csWKUYuj 8RnwMjDuHwufOYnSxbm_sUSaFHDCoC0sb-xfDElJHFHs4G1zMyLA1Z1BRLBzXxUM61fGrQnaqwDa6NSAkBN9 z_yP0Y1kqEmM3i6szibfiKwVoE8aBw9A0OFpdGmJ4eRYTCKpZT pvf0KSX4GB0bdn0jFlxt4-ZdsRHY2MvP3i925cwEBF3PQdZM9k2O1v-80aatI15Up2zyBt1nE1rsgULaM8FusNScFW6CJNVy4ZqEWlys_ WekcopJ-A=w1274-h955-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lelV9yfAa6IR3aYHo76sgIpLJh9ZciEPkJ76xe92-jLF0zwE6S2Seyj4Kbv70vVez7vs7BPI3waLk_gLYazrVqpDpFw tovHfBO6-hsXqVCgvpMIP8GPwZ57rescJH9bpE5o9ChPu5EnaJt-OcjqOPFmhthV7ciMuChqByGTd325mQi2ju1krPo_2zkaa64E9X zV1V6kLPeiYSPU2iRNDa-WS3ArpiUIKvdtVU3mfarvXHX5HUAoTk2eRimOmVJAZIeUL4YgL aEkrFXhSFRD7nl1_lDw2jZ1uQvcD3JMkmBEb8yyqc1nZqCMU90 CQHkY3ZHanWGV8bUipBMJDy8ogAXHBVh9l4jBOHAY-pr-e3S3_dxYwCWg91NbSzyxlJUnV6Hli33OUVJIcNDisFB7slUfKt Aw3YhrUvpAgdXQnJhaBOwiKrok5Ho6vW5XgbcZLTW8vl1_FO9T JFnqcsuJwe9aRG3h2-_ZL4wBm2xdOti-hJ-W3ZIwahluQmuswmP2w-BhNeNenNLS-f8snsNau8C04HIwfqL5HWMwdxIRgQG6vv6jU7x3lqY2_uFuGIH Pa12-YY0j8QsJSaHE0zV7NMgGOzIR7x4CdhdYq-2VDCYPW3ajuw=w1274-h955-no

[pitdogg2]

I do not use in the tank I do the one hour soak method listed on the bottle. Be very careful you can burn your fish if not careful. If fish does fine you can extend it a little more time. keep heater in bucket so temp don't drop too much.

that stuff is basically the same thing they use in Doctors offices to sterilize utensils with some added proprietary ingredients.

[Ardan]

Paraguard is not FMG (formaldehyde + malachitene green)
Paraguard has some malachite green but also has other "aldehydes".
I have used it for parasites on Oscars, only because I needed a long term treatment of one month, stubborn parasites.

Do your daily wc, then add the regular daily dose. Don't add more than that. Some people have reported that paraguard is not effective for some resistant strains of parasites.


hth
Ardan

[Clawhammer]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will keep the dip in mind, that sounds more affordable than dosing my 120. Multiple fish are affected and it has been stubborn, so I decided on the long term treatment.

For how many days should I treat the tank? Thanks!

[Ardan]

Hi,
At least 14 days, some take up to a month to get the parasites that form cysts or lay eggs, as the chemical is not effective against cysts or parasite eggs and you must wait until all cysts/eggs hatch.

Ardan
higher temps speed up the life cycle of the parasites and the treatment can be faster, but too high a temp can also stress the fish, I like higher temps when treating, parasites are also stressed by higher temps. Higher temps can have less dissolved oxygen, so make sure to have plenty of turbulence in the water

[Ardan]

One other note,
When treating for any disease, but especially with parasites, there is the need for the wounds from the parasites to heal. To help with the healing ,good food with vitamins and also good water, clean but with minerals, especially calcium and magnesium. Those are present in tap water but NOT RO water. So make sure you are not trying to treat in tanks that you have used RO water to lower the TDS or Hardness, there are less minerals. Also without minerals in the water the medication may become toxic as it is not buffered.
Just some info that may help anyone treating sick fish:)

hth
Ardan

[Clawhammer]

One other note,
When treating for any disease, but especially with parasites, there is the need for the wounds from the parasites to heal. To help with the healing ,good food with vitamins and also good water, clean but with minerals, especially calcium and magnesium. Those are present in tap water but NOT RO water. So make sure you are not trying to treat in tanks that you have used RO water to lower the TDS or Hardness, there are less minerals. Also without minerals in the water the medication may become toxic as it is not buffered.
Just some info that may help anyone treating sick fish:)

hth
Ardan

Thank you, I have to supplement my water because it is so low in TDS out of the tap. I will up the calcium/Mg supplementation

[Clawhammer]

Update and advice needed. I am one week into the treatment and the issue has continued to get worse. I would say it is full on fin rot now, as my three most affected fish are seeing deterioration of their fins. Should I stop this treatment and try something else because the disease has progressed despite the ParaGuard? The progression despite medication and diligent cleaning/WC's are worrying and puzzling me.

On a positive note, all fish are otherwise eating and behaving normally. The occasional flashing and gill clamping has gone away. Two fish that were acting like loners and not eating as much are now acting 100% normal.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZH_yZzviwam2jyWb2OsX_68RkmTNvbE_WBfzplNd98oTU-9ARvC-YLCKmR6UoFMPruliURx1gZXkIU_Z2x6uY0SSyunNkvt081hZ7b r9YOGgCRjYF-wZWV_fxadW7H_KOR7_w2S5oYqu73_9C4k_7v-wGKuZz285YhurAl5lkNFo1gtws_IWoYSq_VpT01Zejlmdl2s4y-GlyfQV-su7vF3rZC4-FcC08sx_5IgDBlMMmUe38aSCOYD39dcoUsxKIOmlKW6JJlYmBb WStZNfeKlY8jmHzK3_evZnsDlLEI2XASBrujujln0hq9tcq5bB 57glJgeXVI62lVNYWKcHbtpb3i_jvtNPDH-A-69b3aN8AMAffM3eWpfEfHcQI75_XFFLEx-n8OPhDfun_Fi3NcvInE0ryKtzoyT1PHC2kIqAn4fwQytjiahv3 xiyzeVB8303LgOspzTr1Jc4EQBWmq0wl7v3ngD0D1-7_XOapGX5tR-71hWBTPJuTNGYq0r_4O3bvhbYFV96209FNatdeWZwOKxufBcnH ongIh_x70jqr_ZUZDN3oYhTfm1uok2FtT02bCkToXiiA4WoIBJ iH55Uo1tO7u885BdHeOWUihNlKFOrcw=w1274-h955-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t8b-OwohZ5z1S135X0b00K2S4NKivYGtz3MvsqTkWTtLzg2WXtjGfO p47Ablq8XWtDk9r3-F0oA1p21kfacGhWnJLOusbQpJIBvU6qGYLYiMjDXeS3WyFF08K F7sZBElEGcf8IZFt29ePmzxO8WDOi4FvnAv15Ek39N00uKFbkt WBqptxJA8eb-4hgY0AXP8JyGD5gF7CftsQVJ0snKqT49r0iQcJvfuYclNibodV gc2iN3DWO_OOyr7OmiI42dkT87iP8ZqI-Y9OhWnxCS0Jcc80ZZTE9sZ_c-aG8zWZfBA7Tp3GDioetrGeIZ4kxpk5anE61Fcs_aNE3CNpP1gL uEVcHlnysBoBeQ9EawnFq7zx3dvitAbIx5MiS6QOSmABwIRb6u iMSB-R52uIGdF__V-98ZbnbUN3DgP1OyPibeFmNzbWfgL39VO5seAAbq99ix3duDWS6 SB_FVBOqr0n-5ZIsLYuV64TKVUp17fJGbgrlxtBd7mK1rJugfOoZd9UYfUe4g3 EodRisInow_thIXZbqpFQ_dQd6crkItBbCN8yLy0uZJXrOq3n5 ZSzIZ8SnX1O4MwV17DZqmQZhxY2MLIPCmKSRftOXeUqMJRUorH 0mCrtQ=w1274-h955-no

[Clawhammer]

I will also add that I am sure this is not ammonia burn. I have a SeaChem Ammonia Alert Card (two months old) and I have never seen it anything but yellow (0 ppm). My biofilter is a year old and well established and maintained. I change 50% of my water daily with aged water, wipe down the tank sides daily, rinse out prefilters daily, service the canister filters weekly, clean the aging barrel weekly, siphon away waste 4-5 times a day. With all that work, it is quite frustrating to see a disease like this that is generally caused by lack of care. 9 out of 12 fish are not affected, or only have a small spot.

[Ardan]

Hi,
This is what I would do. First and foremost get the paraguard out with a couple large wc's as much as you can, and fill with aged water to keep stress down.
I have used this on discus more than once. There are 2 options here. Number 1 is my first choice without knowing exactly the cause. I think the formalin and malachite green helps even if there is bacterial fin rot as it helps oxidize dead cells that bacteria feed on.
1. The underlying cause could be external parasite still damaging fins and the fin rot is secondary. So I would and have used "rid ich plus" on discus, Oscars, bushynose plecos etc. The parasite was eliminated and the fins healed. I have dosed it as often as 3 times per day (you can go every 6 hours according to the kordon website, but I haven't. I continue this for 2 weeks as long as I see improvement, longer as necessary for stubborn cases. 50%wc's twice per day is what I do, but at least once per day.
2. When I was sure that it wasn't a parasite, but bacterial, then I used a combination of furan 2 + Maroxy as directed. I am not certain that maroxy is still available, I haven't used it in years.
Of course there are other antibiotics available for bacteria, but I hesitate with antibiotics.....

hth
Ardan

[Clawhammer]

Thanks again for your guidance and taking the time to help. I have a couple follow up questions:

1.) I have PP and have used it a few times. I believe it has kept this infection in check, but not eliminated it. Is there any potential role for it here? I have always used it one off, but I have seen multiple dose schedules that may be effective. I am treating a 120 gallon tank, so using a new med like furan-2 is going to be expensive.

2.) I am struggling with the idea that Ich Rid Plus will work since ParaGuard didn't do the trick. Is FMG really much different than ParaGuard, which according to SeaChem contains MG and aldehydes?

Thanks again for your help and patience with my questions.

Eric

[Ardan]

Hi Eric
As always it is up to the fish owner to make the call on what works best as you are there and can see how the disease responds to treatment. Always remember we do not have a positive ID on the offending agent, so we can only guess and observe what works best. Having said that, I am only going on personal experience with the rid ich plus. The difference is there is formalin in it. In the paraguard there are "aldehydes" but they do not say which aldehydes. I think the formalin gives it a better "kick". I have found it helps the fin rot in my cases.
Now, as to the PP. If that works best, it is your call. I have only used it as a one time treatment for unknown external parasites/bacteria. I have not used it in multidose schedules. It is hard to stay on a schedule that will eliminate all parasite life cycles and parasite egg hatching and cyst hatching. Some ich has been shown to last up to 5 weeks... According to Kordons website. Fluke eggs take from 4 hours to 4 days according to Untergasser.
PP is a "Very Powerful Oxidizing Agent" Use with extreme caution. There is an article on treating Koi in a pond on a schedule http://sacramentokoi.com/malachite-green-formalin-alternative-potassium-permanganate/
Remember PP will kill the biofilter! Keep up with wc's but you may start to battle problems with ammonia and nitrite.....
If you overdo the dechlor/safe or whatever other product you use for water, it affects the PP (neutralizes it).....
If you do the PP on a schedule, I would be very interested in your results and what schedule you use and what is effective, but does not harm the fish. Also keep hydrogen peroxide handy to neutralize PP if necessary. But be careful with the hydrogen peroxide, it is an oxidizer also and if overdone will harm the fish....
If you need furan 2, check out Jehmco.com he has Nitrofurazone and he says that replaces furan 2.... Price is probably more efficient than buying the capsules. I don't know as I haven't needed any in quite some time.
I hope this helps Eric.

Ardan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Eric,
Got your Pm and responding here per request:) For some reason I am not seeing the pics so would ask for some new pics as of today. Its never an easy call when medicating fish, and if you do use meds even as labeled they can still have bad effects. My suggestion is this. .... remove all meds and give them a break from meds. Just clean water. One thing that can really help fish with external issues when you arent sure whether its bacterial or parasite is probably one of the oldest remedies out there and unfortunately used to be more used than it is today.... Salt.

Salt as a Dip will often remove external parasites and fungus issues. It will also help the fish deal with external bacterial issues. The problem is to use it you need two tanks or containers to house the fish... You dip the fish in a bucket..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip

Then place fish in a clean tank...by clean I mean one thats got nothing but clean water, a heater..etc.. you don't reuse bio media from the original tank. While the fish is inthe new tank, you strip down the old tank.. sterilize it and the next day you dip the fish and place in the recently cleaned tank.... You do this until the disease organism is gone. This is time consuming method, but is by far one of the most effective methods and one that is generally safe.. Give it a try next time you are dealing with external issues that don't respond to just better tank hygiene.


In this case, I really need to see some current pics.

thanks,
al

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Al. These are URL links, so I will upload the same pics in this post. The first two are from when I started treatment, and the second two show the continued deterioration of the fins while medicating with ParGuard.

Regarding salt, I have also has 1 tbsp per gallon for the past two weeks. Certainly not the method you are suggesting, just wanted to throw that info into the mix.

Just to update the thread with info from my PM, I stopped the ParaGuard treatment and used PP two days ago. It seems to have halted fin degradation but I doubt the issue has been resolved permanently. The fish definitely feel better after PP with an increased appetite and activity level.

102670102671102672102673

[brewmaster15]

Eric,
Fish with Fins like that are generally showing signs of chemical Burns... maybe, as a stretch they could be starting to get a bacterial infection at damaged tissue. Clean water would be my recommendation . Salt dips may help as well by removing the affected areas, but I would hold off on those.

Notice how bright the eyes are..if you were dealing with a parasites these are often hazy looking as are the fins.

I'm not seeing anything there except the fin burns, other than that they look very healthy.

Once all meds are out of the water, I would either do nothing but wait and watch a bit, or I would try trimming the affecting area of one of the fishes fins.. I'd use the BD...my guess is it grows back perfectly fine...

see here...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?27044-Heckel-Hair-Cut!!!!&highlight=heckel+haircut

hth,
al

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Al. Any idea of how they would get chemical burns? I have always thought they look like chemical burns so I am religious about checking my Ammonia Alert card and double check it with the API Ammonia and Nitrite test every few days. Never a hint of ammonia. Also, this issue is only affecting 3 out of 12 fish. I change 50% a day and use enough Safe to treat the whole 120 gallon tank so there should always be some Safe in there neutralizing the ammonia.

Could these 3 affected fish maybe have spent the night sleeping above a pile of feces and thats what created the issue? I am just struggling to understand what the potential root cause would be.

Thanks again for your time and input.

[brewmaster15]

Its really hard to say Eric, but maybe a combination of things just came together for a perfect storm..


The margins of the fins are the most sensitive as that where they are growing... paraguard plus the salt you were treating with as a bath the last 2 weeks? Sometimes you never can figure it out. You may guess, but thats it
.

hth,
al

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Al. There was a typo in my previous post, I treated with ParaGuard and 1 tbsp per 10 gallons for 9 days to be precise

Another aspect I don't believe I made completely clear is that some of my discus have had random white spots (like the ones on the Colbalt in the pictures) on their fins since I got them (5 months ago). However, the fins never began to rot or have totally white margins until the last couple weeks.