Unsuccessful pair

[modealings]

Hi all.

I've had a pair for about 2 months now that lay eggs weekly. The eggs consistently turn white within 24 hours. I've observed the female laying and the male following almost right behind her. (These were a confirmed pair from previous owner.)

They are in a 20g BB tank w sponge filter. Temp is 83F. TDS down to 75. Feeding BH mix 2x/day. Receiving 90-100% wc's daily with aged water treated w safe.

Any idea what else could be going on? My thought is that the male is still young and just to give them more time. Their previous owners did have success however so maybe they just need more time to acclimate to my water?

Thanks a lot.
Eric

[modealings]

102740
I've removed the airstone seem above. This was just when they first arrived.

[Second Hand Pat]

Just as an experiment you might consider adding some rooibos tea https://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea-Organic-African-16-Ounce/dp/B000SATIE6/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1476715035&sr=8-4&keywords=rooibos+tea. A couple tablespoons in a media bag added to the tank should do. A friend with the same issue tried this and it seems to be working. ;)
Pat

[modealings]

Just as an experiment you might consider adding some rooibos tea https://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea-Organic-African-16-Ounce/dp/B000SATIE6/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1476715035&sr=8-4&keywords=rooibos+tea. A couple tablespoons in a media bag added to the tank should do. A friend with the same issue tried this and it seems to be working. ;)
Pat

Thanks Pat - Worth a try! Is there a thought behind how it works?

[Second Hand Pat]

I think it helps to prevent the fungus from forming on the eggs. I have no documentation on this but it is good for the fish and it is fairly cheap.
Pat

[modealings]

I think it helps to prevent the fungus from forming on the eggs. I have no documentation on this but it is good for the fish and it is fairly cheap.
Pat

Ok I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the advice.

[RogueDiscus]

Your tds of 75 might be OK, but you could also try reducing it closer to 40 and see if that helps.

[modealings]

Your tds of 75 might be OK, but you could also try reducing it closer to 40 and see if that helps.

Thanks. I will start to go lower. Thing is I don't see ANY eggs hatch at 75. I also am a bit worried about pH crashes but I guess w 90-100% wc's daily it should be fine?

[RogueDiscus]

Thanks. I will start to go lower. Thing is I don't see ANY eggs hatch at 75. I also am a bit worried about pH crashes but I guess w 90-100% wc's daily it should be fine?

I would say you are fine re the pH. I believe a crash happens if the nitrification process consumes the available carbonate buffer, but if you're changing water regularly, I would think you are replacing it. You could also be right about the male being young and not really doing his thing yet. Hard to tell.

[Allwin]

I normally do few drops of Methylene Blue to avoid fungal attack on eggs and leave them until they hatch.You could also try moving the cone to a small container/minimal aeration and add some drops of Methylene Blue.So, if the egg hatches then its possibly the water that needs some attention. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Galvatron]

Are you sure about the male? Is it possible they are both female?

[modealings]

Thanks guys. I'm pretty certain they're are male and female given that the previous trustworthy source had success and I (think?) have seen 1-2 wigglers on occasion. I will try the methylene blue one of these go-arounds as well.

It is interesting how quickly they turn white. Literally they will lay eggs in the evening and by morning every one will be pure white. Then they guard them ferociously for a week, eventually slowly eat them, and start all over. They're persistent at least!

[modealings]

So this week I tried a few things:
- brought TDS down to 25
- added a few drops of methylene blue after the spawn
- added the rooibos tea

Unfortunately 80% of the eggs still turned white within a day. It's an improvement from 100% though I suppose. I will find out tonight if any of these actually hatch.

[jerry1973]

i had similar problem as you have now, i almost give up. I gave last try use neat RO , it worked , now I have my second batch fry.

[Larry Bugg]

The Meth blue would only be of use if there was an issue with fungus. The eggs turning white means they aren't fertile.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm the friend who started using the tea on Pat's recommendation. I can't say for sure that it was the tea that did the trick, but I can tell that the fish like it and I've finally had a couple of successful spawns. At first I added it to the tanks of the recalcitrant pairs. Today I started adding it to my water storage containers. Now all the fish will share in the joy.

[modealings]

Thanks yea with my RO a TDS of 15 is about as low as I can go.

[modealings]

The Meth blue would only be of use if there was an issue with fungus. The eggs turning white means they aren't fertile.

Yea this was my thinking as well. Eggs are just pure white, no stringy white appearance evident w fungus. Now my question is why aren't they fertile? If they truly are male and female seems like nothing more to do besides keeping up w a good beefheart mix, water changes, and time.

[modealings]

I'm the friend who started using the tea on Pat's recommendation. I can't say for sure that it was the tea that did the trick, but I can tell that the fish like it and I've finally had a couple of successful spawns. At first I added it to the tanks of the recalcitrant pairs. Today I started adding it to my water storage containers. Now all the fish will share in the joy.

Thanks Liz. So you had pairs that weren't producing fertile eggs at all and the only change was rooibos tea and now they're fertile?

It was actually on sale at the grocery store the other day so I figured I'd give it a shot. Certainly not expecting miracles but worth a try. I'll keep up w it for a few weeks and see if I can notice a difference.

[warblad79]

rooibos tea helps with hatching process and lowering the PH. I used RO/Tap with Black water extract with great success

[LizStreithorst]

Pretty much. I have one pair out of three that now produce kids. If I were you, I'd give it more than a few weeks. Change doesn't happen overnight. Buy a pound from the place Pat linked to.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here is where I get mine https://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea-Organic-African-16-Ounce/dp/B000SATIE6/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1477615014&sr=8-5&keywords=rooibos+tea. I also use it for acclimating new discus and the tiny altum babies. I learned about on an angelfish forum and using it with altum angels. The tea is say of have a number of useful benefits with fish.
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

You seem to be doing all the right things, so I'm just thinking of possibilities, problem solving:
Young male
2 females
infertile male
have you checked your water chemistry? no2, no3, ammonia (forgot that one NH...)
hardness, want low tds
turbulence? too much flow

?

[LizStreithorst]

You seem to be doing all the right things, so I'm just thinking of possibilities, problem solving:
Young male
2 females
infertile male
have you checked your water chemistry? no2, no3, ammonia (forgot that one NH...)
hardness, want low tds
turbulence? too much flow

?

This is a proven pair that he is working with. His water sounds fine. I suppose turbulence could be a problem but if he has a reasonable tank it should not be.

I feel this guy's pain. I know what it's like to have fish that should be fertile and are not. You change things that should not be the problem but might be before you ask for help if you're like me. If like me, when you're ready to throw your hand up in defeat, you suck it up and ask someone you trust for advice. When I get what seems like quack advice from a serious Discus person I take it.

We will never know the benefits of the tea, if any. Nobody will ever do a controlled experiment on the tea and Discus. I can't vouch for it because I still have two pairs that continue to frustrate me, but I can tell that all my fish like it so I am now putting it in 700 gallons of water storage containers. I have had two successful spawns from one of the three pairs that have given me fits. The two other pairs continue to frustrate me. I'll keep using it for 6 months.

[RogueDiscus]

Hope nobody was thinking I was trying to down play the tea. I have no experience with it, but can totally imagine it's effect. Just seems like a tough case and was trying to think of options.
Steve

[modealings]

You seem to be doing all the right things, so I'm just thinking of possibilities, problem solving:
Young male
2 females
infertile male
have you checked your water chemistry? no2, no3, ammonia (forgot that one NH...)
hardness, want low tds
turbulence? too much flow

?

Yea at this point I am thinking either young male or just infertile. They are in a BB 20 gal with just a sponge filter so I doubt it's turbulence. (Although I'm starting not to like the 20s. 29s seem like a better size). As far as the water chemistry, I'm doing 90-100% daily wc's and my tap has low nitrates so I never check that anymore.

[modealings]

This is a proven pair that he is working with. His water sounds fine. I suppose turbulence could be a problem but if he has a reasonable tank it should not be.

I feel this guy's pain. I know what it's like to have fish that should be fertile and are not. You change things that should not be the problem but might be before you ask for help if you're like me. If like me, when you're ready to throw your hand up in defeat, you suck it up and ask someone you trust for advice. When I get what seems like quack advice from a serious Discus person I take it.

We will never know the benefits of the tea, if any. Nobody will ever do a controlled experiment on the tea and Discus. I can't vouch for it because I still have two pairs that continue to frustrate me, but I can tell that all my fish like it so I am now putting it in 700 gallons of water storage containers. I have had two successful spawns from one of the three pairs that have given me fits. The two other pairs continue to frustrate me. I'll keep using it for 6 months.

Thanks Liz. I do have to admit that I'm a little skeptical of the tea making a big difference but after 2 months of weekly batches turning white I'm willing to try whatever you pros recommend. It's frustrating in that I have 2 pairs - the other will have a great hatch rate at 200-300 TDS. Unfortunately they like to eat their fry and have recently gone on a break from laying at all.

I will keep up with the tea and standard maintenance and see how things go.

[Larry Bugg]

I think it helps to prevent the fungus from forming on the eggs. I have no documentation on this but it is good for the fish and it is fairly cheap.
Pat

Since you are putting it in a media bag I'm assuming it last during many daily water changes. How long will a bag full last doing daily water changes? I'm thinking about buying some and trying it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Since you are putting it in a media bag I'm assuming it last during many daily water changes. How long will a bag full last doing daily water changes? I'm thinking about buying some and trying it.

It is good for a couple days Larry. In a 40 breeder I add a couple tablespoons every other day or so.
Pat

[modealings]

While I waited on the bulk order I found the individual bags on sale at the grocery store. Just been using one after every other water change in the 20gal. No idea if that's enough but it's easy to do.

[Albanets]

Did you see any wigglers? I would lower bubbles and maybe skip a day of water changes.

[CliffsDiscus]

The water may not be the problem, I have always said that it's more difficult to find a male then a female. Male Discus even proven may not always
fertilize the females eggs, they just do some dry runs,
and this may last for many spawns from the female.
Usually when the male is finally ready, the female may go off her spawning cycle, that's life.

Cliff

[modealings]

I'm not confident I've seen any wigglers. They continue to lay eggs weekly (since August now) but no success. I've tried the skipping a wc after they lay eggs but no difference either. I could turn off the sponge filter during the next spawn and see if that changes anything. At this point I'm just focusing on wc's and healthy feeding.

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=modealings;1236860]Thanks Liz. I do have to admit that I'm a little skeptical of the tea making a big difference but after 2 months of weekly batches turning white I'm willing to try whatever you pros recommend. It's frustrating in that I have 2 pairs - the other will have a great hatch rate at 200-300 TDS. Unfortunately they like to eat their fry and have recently gone on a break from laying at all.

I will keep up with the tea and standard maintenance and see how things go.[/QUOTE
Try changing to one of your fertile males, this has worked many times for me.

Cliff

[modealings]

A little update, with no good news unfortunately.

These guys went off cycle over the winter and just started laying again about a month ago. I was hopeful that they had matured as they've growth significantly but still no success. On their last attempt the TDS was 20, sponge filter was turned way down, I visualized both fish making runs, and not one egg hatched. Given that I've had them for close to a year now I may just have to conclude that the male is infertile. Admittedly I did stop the tea a few months ago as it was making my aging barrels slimy and I wasn't noticing a difference.

My only other thought is to put them in a community tank and see if that strengthens the bond. Other than that, I'm stumped.

[rickmiles]

In past years I have bought proven pairs that the owners swore they had wigglers, they lied, or they hoped it was a proven pair because they hung around together or did the spawn things that proven pairs do. They were 2 females. I wasted months and months of time because I believed the previous owners.

[Brotoss]

A little update, with no good news unfortunately.

These guys went off cycle over the winter and just started laying again about a month ago. I was hopeful that they had matured as they've growth significantly but still no success. On their last attempt the TDS was 20, sponge filter was turned way down, I visualized both fish making runs, and not one egg hatched. Given that I've had them for close to a year now I may just have to conclude that the male is infertile. Admittedly I did stop the tea a few months ago as it was making my aging barrels slimy and I wasn't noticing a difference.

My only other thought is to put them in a community tank and see if that strengthens the bond. Other than that, I'm stumped.

Any success Eric? I'm in the same boat as you right now... :(

[AquaWoman]

Yup, mine too. I'm hoping they're just faking it till they make it. I'm not trying too hard though. Mine are in a community tank and all I've done is put up a divider and cover one of the filter intakes with a sponge. My thinking is, I'll let Nature work this out. Plus, if I end up with babies I'll just have more water changes to do! :grin:

[Brotoss]

I'm thinking about using RO but I really dont want to mess with water params/ pH. I;m stumped

[CliffsDiscus]

Last would be injection, these are use by salmon and
fish breeders in Asia.

[modealings]

Any success Eric? I'm in the same boat as you right now... :(

Unfortunately not. After 20 + try's I just gave up on it and traded them.

[Discusamazonicos]

Sad to hear that. I am above the 4th attempt failed