New to Discus Water Parameters and approach views please :)

[Keith024]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to this forum and this will be my first post, even though I have been following and reading many other posts which are quite informative! Thanks to this Forum I have learnt a lot and appreciate everyone's input. :)

I have kept and bred tropical fish for some years, however never had Discus, so I thought now is the time!

I am currently setting up a 270Ltr (70Gal) tank with sump filter of approx. another 80 litres (20 Gal) Total 90 Gallons. Yesterday I have filled the fish tank with RO water and added Preis minerals to it and below are the water parameters 30 minutes after adding the minerals:

PH - 6.4
KH - 0-3⁰
GH - >7⁰
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10 - 25
TDS - 230 PPM


My Tap water parameters are as follows:

PH - 7.2
KH - 6⁰
GH - >7⁰ - >14⁰
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 25
TDS - 686 PPM
Chlorine - 0.8mg/ltr

Currently there are no fish in the tank and I am in the second day of cycling the tank. I have got some filter media from my fish supplier and also put a couple of frozen dead shrimps inside the tank to help with ammonia and aerobic bacteria generation. I also bought some Ammonia from ebay and hopefully will arrive today or tomorrow!

I have a storage tank that has a capacity of 100 litres where I am keeping water generated from the RO aerated and heated to same temperature as that in the fish tank. I am planning to keep around 10 to 12 Discus, most probably will purchase them at around 4-5 inches and plan to do 30% water changes a couple of times a week (according to water parameters of course).

The fish tank has very little sand in the bottom (just enough to cover the glass maybe 1/2 inch thickness not to trap any gasses beneath it) and I plan to keep a couple of live plants inside clay pots and also some bog wood.

Just wondered what are your views about my approach... any comments and or help / hints will be much appreciated :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Keith and welcome to Simply. First a couple suggestions. Please retest your nitrates. If you are using the API nitrate test please retest and follow the directions to the letter. Nitrates of 25 ppm is quite high for a discus tank and I would expect nitrates of 0 from a RO unit.

Second please consider doing a fishless cycle. Guessing the filter media from your fish supplier was from one if their tank. This is a form of contamination for the discus so you might consider sterilizing everything and restarting the cycle (without the shrimp) and just use the ammonia. Make sure the ammonia does not foam when shaking it. You do not want surfactants.

Please rethink the number of discus for your tank. While you have 90 gallons for water you need to consider the actual tank space. Discus are cichlids and will push and bully each other around while being a school first at the same time. Eight would be more inline with your tank space.

Also rethink your water change schedule. You will be getting sub-adults in the 4-5 inch range and they generally are feed more often then adults as they are still growing. I would suggest daily water changes of 50% or so. I am currently growing out six four inch a 40 breeder (for QT) and doing 80% daily. After QT they will go in a 75 with sump and receive 50% daily WCs.

The last thing is to consider is leaving the tank bare bottom for now until the fish are grown, then add your sand, wood etc. You will be amazed at how quickly discus will dirty a tank.
Pat

[Filip]

Hi Keith and welcome aboard .

I like your simplistic approach with only a thin layer of sand and your plan to start with semi adults 4-5 inch . discus.Plants in pots is also a good idea to keep your bottom clean and in the same time enjoy some greenery in the tank .
I would advice you not to go overboard with bioload and round your numbers to 8-10 discus total . This will give them optimal space to swim and it will be much easier to maintain optimal water quality.
Also for a start I would up those WCs to a min .50% couple of times a week , at least for the first 2 months , until you catch up with keeping discus and their maintenance .

As for your water .Are you sure your tds is >600 and your nitrate 25 ? Those are some pretty high readings .
I would try to use 50/50% RO and tap water mix for waterchanges and I think that will work .

Good luck with your start Keith and keep us updated .

[Keith024]

Hi Keith and welcome to Simply. First a couple suggestions. Please retest your nitrates. If you are using the API nitrate test please retest and follow the directions to the letter. Nitrates of 25 ppm is quite high for a discus tank and I would expect nitrates of 0 from a RO unit.

Second please consider doing a fishless cycle. Guessing the filter media from your fish supplier was from one if their tank. This is a form of contamination for the discus so you might consider sterilizing everything and restarting the cycle (without the shrimp) and just use the ammonia. Make sure the ammonia does not foam when shaking it. You do not want surfactants.

Please rethink the number of discus for your tank. While you have 90 gallons for water you need to consider the actual tank space. Discus are cichlids and will push and bully each other around while being a school first at the same time. Eight would be more inline with your tank space.

Also rethink your water change schedule. You will be getting sub-adults in the 4-5 inch range and they generally are feed more often then adults as they are still growing. I would suggest daily water changes of 50% or so. I am currently growing out six four inch a 40 breeder (for QT) and doing 80% daily. After QT they will go in a 75 with sump and receive 50% daily WCs.

The last thing is to consider is leaving the tank bare bottom for now until the fish are grown, then add your sand, wood etc. You will be amazed at how quickly discus will dirty a tank.
Pat

Second Hat Pat,

Many thanks for your reply. Currently I am still waiting for the API test kit bought from Ebay and unfortunately am using a less accurate strip kit which I had purchase a couple of years ago until the API kit arrives. Before adding the Discus minerals (according to the strips) Nitrates read about 10ppm however 30 minutes after adding the minerals I retested the water and it seemed like the nitrates had increased to between 10 to 25ppm is this even possible?

With regards to the cycle, I am doing a fishless cycle where I will make sure no fish are introduced before the tank is properly cycled and I also get the hang of the water chemistry needed for the Discus. I got the filter media from my fish supplier which deals only in discus and has nothing else, so that I can boost up the aerobic bacteria growth. Isnt that a good idea? With regards to the shrimp it was to introduce some form of ammonia until the proper Ammonia arrives through the post.

Amount of Discus will be cut to around 8 thanks to be sure the bioload is not too large.

The issue with my water changes is that the storage tank I have takes a max of 100 ltrs (26 gallons) which can be produced in approx. 24 to 48 hours by the RO. Thus the Maximum water change I can realistically make is of 30% every other day. I hope this is enough...

[Keith024]

Hi Keith and welcome aboard .

I like your simplistic approach with only a thin layer of sand and your plan to start with semi adults 4-5 inch . discus.Plants in pots is also a good idea to keep your bottom clean and in the same time enjoy some greenery in the tank .
I would advice you not to go overboard with bioload and round your numbers to 8-10 discus total . This will give them optimal space to swim and it will be much easier to maintain optimal water quality.
Also for a start I would up those WCs to a min .50% couple of times a week , at least for the first 2 months , until you catch up with keeping discus and their maintenance .

As for your water .Are you sure your tds is >600 and your nitrate 25 ? Those are some pretty high readings .
I would try to use 50/50% RO and tap water mix for water changes and I think that will work .

Good luck with your start Keith and keep us updated .

Filip,

Many thanks for your reply.

The maximum I can realistically up the water changes if using 100% RO Water, is of 30% every other day due to the size of the RO water storage tank and also the RO production of water.

With regards to the TDS >600 was for my tap water. My RO water after dissolving the Preis Discus Minerals is 230 PPM. While the nitrates test I dont think it was very accurate since I am currently using test strips (until an API liquid test kit gets through the mail from ebay) . According to the strips before adding the Discus minerals Nitrates were 10 PPM, however I was surprised that 30 minutes after dissolving the discus minerals according to the strips; nitrates seemed to go up approximately between 10 to 25ppm. If that is possible at all!?

Straight tap water TDS is high at 686 PPM and also the nitrates straight from the tap are at 25 PPM :( While straight RO water before adding Discus minerals to it is 149 PPM and Nitrates 10 PPM. That is why I chose to go for 100% RO water.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Keith, let's see what your nitrates are once the testkit arrives. I personally would not trust the strips (old or new). I most likely will suggest once we know the nitrate levels in your source water that you use your tap water or a ro/tap mix. Domestic discus generally do fine in tap water.
Pat

[DiscusRob]

Hi Keith, let's see what your nitrates are once the testkit arrives. I personally would not trust the strips (old or new). I most likely will suggest once we know the nitrate levels in your source water that you use your tap water or a ro/tap mix. Domestic discus generally do fine in tap water.
Pat


+1

[Keith024]

Ok many thanks API test kit should be in post and will check once again and let you guys know! Many thanks for now:)

[jmf3460]

Hi Keith and welcome to the forum. We certainly appreciate new members that put forth the effort and do their homework before diving into discus, and it looks like you have the starts for a great and well thought out discus tank. I think the layer of sand with some wood and a few potted plants sounds perfect for a discus tank. As Pat said, there are a couple of MINOR issues with your plan so far. First and foremost is to figure out your nitrates, 25ppm straight from the tap is not good. Secondly, other than the nitrate reading, I don't think you need to go the RO route at all. Your tap water looks perfectly ideal for discus fish as is. Unless you are planning on breeding or keeping certain wild strains, you shouldn't have to worry with TDS. Why not just use aged tap water? Your chlorine reading will bubble out during aging and your KH will likely go down also with aging as you bubble off the CO2.

I agree that getting bb from a LFS was not a good idea. Its better to start fresh and let your tank establish its own beneficial bacteria. Most pet stores have a huge supply of bb but it could be contaminated with a number of different diseases that any of their fish have had.

A big +1 to Pat's suggestion of rethinking your water change schedule. 30% water change a couple times a week, will really not suffice, and your fish will suffer. Many people who come to this forum with sicknesses or disease could have avoided it all by doing more water changes. I have a 75 with 6 wild discus and I do 33% daily. sometimes I skip a day but not often.

again welcome and please accept our critiques as helpful and not hurtful in any way. We're not bashing anything and want to see you succeed. I think you have a great plan!! Have you thought about what strain discus, will you do single strain or varied?? Any other fish like corydoras or dither fishes?? What plants and what lighting will you use??

[Keith024]

Hi Jacklyn and everyone,

Many thanks once again for your help it is truly appreciated! :)

So the API Master Test Kit has arrived through the post today and I have tested the Aquarium water ( which is 100% RO water with PREIS Discus Minerals added) and also Tap Water straight out of the tap. I got some different results from the results I was getting (or thought that I was getting from the test strips! ) I will attache some pictures of the tests so that I make sure I have chosen the right colours from the colour chart!

Aquarium Water (100% RO with PREIS Discus minerals added) on the 2nd day of a fish less cycle:

PH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0 PPM
Nitrate - 5 PPM


Tap Water straight from the tap:

PH - 8.2
Nitrate - 30 - 40 PPM

Did not test for Nitrite and Ammonia.

Do you still think I should go for Tap Water with these high PH and Nitrates straight from the Tap? Or stick to RO Water?


With regards to the Filter Media I got from my fish supplier to enhance bacterial growth, I think I should make sure that I have explained myself in the best way possible; This is not a pet store, but a private individual who is arguably the best Discus keeper/breeder/importer in my country. His fish look stunning are amazing and are healthy definitely the best I can find in my part of the world. Imagine every person I dscuss with that I am starting to keep discus they all mention him as the best, so I thought I would be safe with him?? :/

I have attached some pictures of the test results:

102766102767102768102769102770102771

Many thanks once again ! :)

[Keith024]

Hi Keith and welcome to the forum. We certainly appreciate new members that put forth the effort and do their homework before diving into discus, and it looks like you have the starts for a great and well thought out discus tank. I think the layer of sand with some wood and a few potted plants sounds perfect for a discus tank. As Pat said, there are a couple of MINOR issues with your plan so far. First and foremost is to figure out your nitrates, 25ppm straight from the tap is not good. Secondly, other than the nitrate reading, I don't think you need to go the RO route at all. Your tap water looks perfectly ideal for discus fish as is. Unless you are planning on breeding or keeping certain wild strains, you shouldn't have to worry with TDS. Why not just use aged tap water? Your chlorine reading will bubble out during aging and your KH will likely go down also with aging as you bubble off the CO2.

I agree that getting bb from a LFS was not a good idea. Its better to start fresh and let your tank establish its own beneficial bacteria. Most pet stores have a huge supply of bb but it could be contaminated with a number of different diseases that any of their fish have had.

A big +1 to Pat's suggestion of rethinking your water change schedule. 30% water change a couple times a week, will really not suffice, and your fish will suffer. Many people who come to this forum with sicknesses or disease could have avoided it all by doing more water changes. I have a 75 with 6 wild discus and I do 33% daily. sometimes I skip a day but not often.

again welcome and please accept our critiques as helpful and not hurtful in any way. We're not bashing anything and want to see you succeed. I think you have a great plan!! Have you thought about what strain discus, will you do single strain or varied?? Any other fish like corydoras or dither fishes?? What plants and what lighting will you use??

Jacklyn,

I am not sure about what strain I will keep if varied or not, one thing i would like to do is to one day breed them so maybe single strain would be the best?

[jmf3460]

single strain looks the best in show tanks IMO. there are tons of people that would disagree but also many people that would agree OP. regarding your new water parameter findings. the Nitrate reading straight out of tap is something to worry about for sure, it shocks me that you would have that high of nitrates. I wonder if running it through a prefilter would help at all?

[Keith024]

Yeah that is why I included the pictures of the test results as the reading was so high I thought I was doing a mistake! In fact in my country (Malta) most people that keep discus successfully always use RO water, because of the hardness and Nitrates in the tap water. Could be that running it through a pre filter be a good idea.

[DJW]

I have nitrate that high sometimes during the year, and the only practical way I know to remove it is RO.

It looks like there is a problem with the RO filter. You stated that the TDS of the RO water is 149 ppm? You might test that again. When testing the RO product water, let it run for a couple minutes before testing the TDS -- the first part that comes out has been sitting against the membrane and getting bleed-back. If it is still high it can be from several causes. If the membrane is new it is most likely from low pressure.

[Keith024]

Thanks for the tip I checked it according to your steps and it is now 86 PPM :)

[jmf3460]

so it sounds like you might be right that RO is the way to go for your set up, or an RO/tap blend that you create. you are much smarter than I with all your parameters and testing, I am lucky that my well water is awesome for my discus, that way I can be dumb and just age it and add tannins. I think your fish are going to be very happy Keith. that is if you agree to do more water changes than 30% twice a week. how bought 30% a day??

[Keith024]

Thanks for your words of encouragement ! :) Sure I need them at the moment coz I feel like a woman waiting for the 9 months pregnancy to pass (cycling the tank surely feels like 9 months) and cant wait to see her child for the first time ! LOL waaayyy exaggerated I know :)

Yeah I think I will start with 30% every other day and check water parameters and see from there. The only issue for 30% a day is water production by the RO, cause currently I have it on a timer and it produces 120 litres in a bit more than 30 hours. If I had to do 30% water changes daily I would have to put the RO on more often.

[Filip]

Thanks for your words of encouragement ! :) Sure I need them at the moment coz I feel like a woman waiting for the 9 months pregnancy to pass (cycling the tank surely feels like 9 months) and cant wait to see her child for the first time ! LOL waaayyy exaggerated I know :)


Look on the bright side here Keith .
At least you dont get the pains , mood swings , nauseas and other pregnancy side effects. And on top of that, you get to choose how you want your kids to look like .LOL

As for the WC regime and water quallity . I my self , would try a more natural , "the granny approach " .
Try to put more and more tap water in the Ro/water mix day by day and see how your kids will react. Maybe they wont be bothered at all by your notorious tap water .
Because at the end of the day, not doing enough WC is much worser case scenario than doing it with a improper water parameters water source .
Just my "granny "and tottaly unscientific approach :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Keith, something like this may work with filtering your nitrates from your tap water and is a cheaper method than RO. Would need to determine the right carbon block. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes&highlight=unhappy+summer

[Keith024]

Yes that could work I guess. Would it reduce hardness too?

[Keith024]

Filip,

yes that is a very good recommendation I will keep that in mind too thanks :)