New Wild Discus, a few questions

[JBurgo]

103160103161103162Hi All,

This is my first post, I'm pretty sure I'll be needing some advice soon, so I might as well introduce myself before any emergencies.

I've been a fish-keeper all my life, but only over the past few years have I really become serious. Presently I have 3 tanks: 3' (canister) community with a pair of Angels, Rainbows, Cardinals etc, 4' (sump) Cichlid and 8' (sump) Discus.

I have had the 8' tank for 2 years. The goal was Discus. Short term: Cheap LFS Discus. Mid Term: A few pairs of larger breeding quality fish. Longer Term: A view to some wilds (which I absolutely adore, but dared not consider- for cost and experience). I had my share of experiences and illnesses associated with young, small Discus and cut my teeth growing them out. So about 3 months ago I got 2 pairs of large Turks, exactly what I had wanted for the Mid Term goal, they were both spawning up either end of the tank (but eating the eggs), I didn't really care because they were still adolescents.

A week ago though I had an opportunity to get some wilds, the seller was down-sizing and had several fish in cramped conditions really wanting to get rid of them, and I couldn't resist the opportunity. They came earlier in the process than I wanted, and I wasn't as prepared as I wanted to be, but I have them now. They came a bit thin, with some signs of worms /parasites probably due to stress, but eating hungrily. They all settled in and coloured up quickly, and I put a wormer through them (Wormer Plus). This cleared up their poo and that's all good, but being a bit thin I've been giving beef heart daily plus a bit of pellets and flake to try to get some bulk back on them. This is putting some stress on my system with the Nitrates getting up to 40-80 (mid orange), so I might back that down to every second day now.

My questions are about PH and water changes. I keep hearing so many conflicting opinions. My town-water is 7.2 and my Aquarium sits at 6.8 naturally. The fish came from a chemically induced 6 environment. I do 1/3 temperature matched water changes weekly. The tank is understocked with 7 moderate sized Discus in an 8' tank. I would like to start adding some Peat in the filter to shift the PH a bit naturally, but my concern is stressing the fish when I do water changes. I don't want to start using PH down, but should I use it to get the town-water down to the Aquarium's stable level to avoid shock (especially if I get the Aquarium's level down a bit further with the Peat)? I am only considering adding Peat to avoid issues with the wilds, ATM they are colourful and active with no signs of stress. I know enough not to plow in and start making huge changes. But at the same time I have no hesitation in changing my set-up to suit them in slow considered steps, after all, I will do whatever it takes.

I have a fairly simple set-up, river sand bottom, which is a coarse sand to light gravel, moderate to light planting, two medium sized mangrove root structures at either end, couple of clown loaches and a small population of Endlers for detritus control, I don't use CO2 or UV or anything like that yet and I like to stay away from chemicals wherever possible.

Any advice appreciated,
Jas.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jas and welcome to Simply. First off your ph with the wilds is fine so suggest not messing with it. I would not mess with peat. Some folks have had success with peat and others say it irritates the fish. I would suggest adding rooibos tea to the water. It is good for the fish and stains the water a nice golden color. Buy it loose (from Amazon) and add several tablespoons to a media bag and place it in the sump.

You definitely need to get some bulk on these fish. You might consider adding small live red wigglers to the diet. The fish will love them and it will not foul the water. One note of concern is the nitrates. Does your source water have nitrates? You really want nitrates at 10 or less. Make sure your test kit is not expired and you are following the directions exactly on the package.
Pat

[jmf3460]

Welcome to the forum Jas!! I am confused you say your set up is river sand but this picture is gravel.

[Kyla]

i would have jumped at having those fish too! love the mix of colours. fingers crossed they fatten up and do well in our tank.

i think trying to feed them heavily, esp with beef heart, in a tank with gravel substrate is going to make it difficult to clean the bottom area. i dont feed beefheart but i do use a homemade mix like it which is messy and i wouldnt feed it to my guys with gravel on the bottom because the little particles would get lodged in between the gravel spaces and foul the water. even tho they r already fairly large, i'd up the water changes to daily with a gravel cleaning while feeding beefheart. ive been doing daily wc with my guys lately and the love it. it def cant hurt, esp if they r on the skinny side and came from a stressful crowded tank.

discus can thrive in all sorts of ph levels. but u dont want to expose them to ph swings during wc. i would recommend to age-test ur water to see what the ph settles at after u have aerated a bucket of tap water for a day (test ph right from tap then after aerating for a day and see if there is a difference between readings). what is the kh in ur water? if the tanks ph is lower than ur tap ph it could be an indicator that u need more frequent wc to maintain the ph in the tank. with nitrates that high it also suggests more wc r needed (unless as pat suggests u may have nitrates in ur tap water).

[JBurgo]

Thanks for the comments, it's great to have an experienced second opinion.

It's called river sand where I bought it, it means it was collected on a riverbed, it's gravelly on the top and gets to a coarse sand underneath, for intents and purposes with detritus it's probably the same as gravel.

I have an API test kit, with good expiry date, and I'm doing all the shaking and waiting, but it doesn't have hardness, I'll have to see if I can buy a hardness test because that seems to be the important one.

The source water has no Nitrates, Nitrites or Ammonia.

I made another test this morning and I'm getting 20 on the Nitrates, I had done a gravel vac including removing the driftwood structures and doing underneath them within 12 hours of the previous test, which may have affected it. I'll up the changes to 2 a week with vacuums (it's a big tank), while I'm overfeeding. Normally, I don't have a Nitrate problem, but I always understock (which is the reason I got such a big tank, I like water stability and more natural behaviour).

I feel like I'm doing a bit of a rescue with them and I'm concerned for them to put on weight too, I'm very lucky to be able to have them though and there was no choice with how they came, wilds are very rare here, and for the money I spent I'm very nervous about this. The upside is that their poo is good and their behaviour is happy and hungry.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jas, nice to hear things are improving. Would definitely keep up the twice (or better ;) ) per week water changes and vacuuming. I can't help thinking your river sand/rock might be adding to the nitrate problem by harboring too much food. Would you consider changing it out for pool filter sand?
Pat

[JBurgo]

I would be prepared to change out the gravel for pool filter sand, is that what you use? The fish will see food better too, although the darker shade substrate gives subdued lighting, which I'm pretty sure the fish prefer. I'll consider anything at the moment, because this was a split decision that I had to run with and I didn't get the time to set everything up.

The problem is I'm worried to do such a major tank overhaul with the fish in their current state, I probably shouldn't consider it for a few months until I get some weight on them, so they can handle any toxins a bit better. If I stir up any pollutants I could lose them. I'm even concerned about vacuuming too deeply ATM. Any suggestions for how to go about removing it, a bit at a time I suppose over a few water changes, till you get to bare bottom.

Does the Rooibos Tea reduce PH and soften the water? I'm at about 700 litres, how much do you use and how dark is it?

Anything else to fatten them up with? They like the protein pellets from the Cichlids, that's got to be good. I can't imagine flake adds weight but they really enjoy that. They also love the bloodworms, but I'm concerned for the water quality to give too much.

[Ryan925]

I would be prepared to change out the gravel for pool filter sand, is that what you use? The fish will see food better too, although the darker shade substrate gives subdued lighting, which I'm pretty sure the fish prefer. I'll consider anything at the moment, because this was a split decision that I had to run with and I didn't get the time to set everything up.

The problem is I'm worried to do such a major tank overhaul with the fish in their current state, I probably shouldn't consider it for a few months until I get some weight on them, so they can handle any toxins a bit better. If I stir up any pollutants I could lose them. I'm even concerned about vacuuming too deeply ATM. Any suggestions for how to go about removing it, a bit at a time I suppose over a few water changes, till you get to bare bottom.

Does the Rooibos Tea reduce PH and soften the water? I'm at about 700 litres, how much do you use and how dark is it?

Anything else to fatten them up with? They like the protein pellets from the Cichlids, that's got to be good. I can't imagine flake adds weight but they really enjoy that. They also love the bloodworms, but I'm concerned for the water quality to give too much.

I recently went through a sub change. It seems like such a daunting task but really wasn't all that bad. Once I saw the results in the fish I knew I made the right choice. I deep vac'd my gravel with each wc. I though I was keeping it really clean. When I removed my gravel I found out how truly filthy it was.

I wouldn't recommend doing it with fish in. I took mine out and put them in a 30G tote with air stone and heater. I then removed all gravel and wiped the tank out really well. Then added the pfs. Refilled tank and let it run for an hour or 2 then added fish back in

You may be right that you need to stabilize them before moving them. I'd def follow the recommendations and increase wc frequency for now

Beautiful fish by the way

[woopaul5]

Thanks for the comments, it's great to have an experienced second opinion.

It's called river sand where I bought it, it means it was collected on a riverbed, it's gravelly on the top and gets to a coarse sand underneath, for intents and purposes with detritus it's probably the same as gravel.

I have an API test kit, with good expiry date, and I'm doing all the shaking and waiting, but it doesn't have hardness, I'll have to see if I can buy a hardness test because that seems to be the important one.

The source water has no Nitrates, Nitrites or Ammonia.

I made another test this morning and I'm getting 20 on the Nitrates, I had done a gravel vac including removing the driftwood structures and doing underneath them within 12 hours of the previous test, which may have affected it. I'll up the changes to 2 a week with vacuums (it's a big tank), while I'm overfeeding. Normally, I don't have a Nitrate problem, but I always understock (which is the reason I got such a big tank, I like water stability and more natural behaviour).

I feel like I'm doing a bit of a rescue with them and I'm concerned for them to put on weight too, I'm very lucky to be able to have them though and there was no choice with how they came, wilds are very rare here, and for the money I spent I'm very nervous about this. The upside is that their poo is good and their behaviour is happy and hungry.

Welcome to the forum! As others has stated I'd not worry much about pH, stability is the key to success. Definitely ditch the gravel bottom and replace with PFS and as Ryan stated remove the fish when you do this. Personally I'd ditch the plants also, IMO for plants to thrive and discus to thrive contradict each other.

Roobios tea will not lower your pH but it will bring anti fungal properties to the water. On how dark it will get is all up to you. Pat and Jacklyn will be able to help you on how much to use per gallon.

I'd buy a 2nd nitrate kit. From my experience the API kit the oranges look to close to each other for me to determine what ppm it's at. Personally I use a salifert kit for nitrates but nutrafin is another company that has a good kit available. Regardless of how you stock I'd recommend several water changes a week. While I was at home with my discus I followed a 3,2,2,3 water change schedule but under my parents care they have been doing a water change every third day.

Not quite sure where you are located at but majoirity of us use (Brewmaster) Al's freeze dried black worms. They are high in protein and I'm pretty sure they are crack to discus.

http://www.aquaticsuppliers.com/ or http://www.blackworms.com.au/

Hope this helps and love the fish in the top photo to the far right. Best of luck - Paul

[JBurgo]

Tank water results for KH = 35.8 (2 drops), GH = 107.4 (6 drops). API test kit. I'll have to look up what that means, but it seems to be at least in the ball park.

Reason I'm so concerned about doing a gravel change is that I killed a beautiful breeding pair of angel fish once when I did exactly that, at least killed the female and the male fretted and died a few months later. I moved them with the bulk of the tank water, plants etc to a large storage box, kept the canister unchanged, put them all back in a few hours after it settled, she was dead the next day. The Cichlids on the other hand get their tank thoroughly done over constantly, they're tough fish.

[woopaul5]

Not that it really matters but do you have a TDS meter?

Most people with me included seem to think that we need to replicate the amazon when taking care of wilds but there are several members on here that are raising wilds from tap with hard water and moderately high TDS. The common ground I see is stability and clean water in healthy discus.

[JBurgo]

I don't have a TDS meter, should I invest in one? They seem relatively inexpensive. But I'm the kind of guy who'd rather just do a water change than measure something. In the same time, what you're probably going to find out needs doing, is already done. That being said, it's good to know your parameters and set up a routine that needs to be done initially, I measure less when it's running, but it's just to make sure it's all kicking as I think it should be.

I like a few plants, they're not as important as the fish for me (I know this is taste), and they need to be hardy, I don't use CO2 or any additives for them. I keep the tank at 29 deg, and most plants don't like that, but the few that I have are doing OK and actually growing, so I support them. I also like areas of open space for the fish to swim between structures (and clumps of plants), I think they like that. I'll never let the plants overtake the tank.

The Discus on the far right in the first photo is a small Uatamu Blue, he's one of the healthier ones even though he's small. I really like the one on the bottom left too, he came as a Green, but I think he's a Brown, maybe even a Coupe (not sure how to spell it), but every now and then he gets the most vivid reds through him. I also like the Tefes who are taking a small interest in each other, although one is fairly thin and I have my fingers crossed there.

I'm in Australia, so I don't think I'll be able to get any food from the States unfortunately, because that food looks great and great value.

[woopaul5]

TDS meter isn't absolutely needed for discus. Prior to purchasing wild discus I got into dwarf shrimp and the meter was just added benifit when I wanted to replicate amazon waters. Theres a lot more people on here who have been raising their wilds in tap water with a higher pH with no issues so this may be something I might switch to in the future but tap here in AZ is really hard.

The plant thing is just my opinion. You'll see on here and all across the internet that people can make it work but I just didn't have the patience when I had a planted discus tank. I stunted several juvies and a few got sick from the dosing regime I had.

Try http://www.blackworms.com.au/ this is the direct source for Al's fdbw

[JBurgo]

Thanks Paul, that's great, I was buying that exact product for $15 for 5 grams and using it as a treat, at that price I can use it more as part of the staple. What percentage of the diet should it be?

Actually, after they settle in and bulk up, any recommendations for diet as they grow out?

My intentions are frozen beef heart every 2nd day (2 blocks), frozen blood worms or frozen brine shrimp once or twice a week (one block). Daily: a variation of Vitalis Discus Pellets, Tropical Wild Discus Gran, Tetracolor Tropical Granules, Flake and /or some of the Cichlid's Protein Pellets. Generally one major feed per day, but I usually spread it over 1/2 hour to an hour giving little bits at a time (going away and coming back) to help with consumption to keep the tank cleaner. I usually give a small pinch of flake in the morning, wouldn't really call it a feed though, just enough to encourage them out of their corner for the day. Should I be feeding more than once a day at their size? (I wouldn't have thought so, but it sounds like you guys feed your fish a number of times a day).

[Phillydubs]

Just to chime in... Sorry, I have been clicking on and off this thread and you were getting great advice so I never really posted...

I'm one of the guys that Paul referred to as being ok with keeping my wilds in good clean aged tap a bit of prime and not really testing anything or worrying what was reading at what level.

I have 5 wilds in a 40 breeder now since late march early april. I age my tap 24 hrs. I spalsh some prime in before I start my siphon. They get a 50% water change with the sand all mixed up every other day. They eat Al's FDBW and knock on wood they have been beyond stellar. Growing, coloring, not an issue in sight!

[woopaul5]

Thanks Paul, that's great, I was buying that exact product for $15 for 5 grams and using it as a treat, at that price I can use it more as part of the staple. What percentage of the diet should it be?

Actually, after they settle in and bulk up, any recommendations for diet as they grow out?

My intentions are frozen beef heart every 2nd day (2 blocks), frozen blood worms or frozen brine shrimp once or twice a week (one block). Daily: a variation of Vitalis Discus Pellets, Tropical Wild Discus Gran, Tetracolor Tropical Granules, Flake and /or some of the Cichlid's Protein Pellets. Generally one major feed per day, but I usually spread it over 1/2 hour to an hour giving little bits at a time (going away and coming back) to help with consumption to keep the tank cleaner. I usually give a small pinch of flake in the morning, wouldn't really call it a feed though, just enough to encourage them out of their corner for the day. Should I be feeding more than once a day at their size? (I wouldn't have thought so, but it sounds like you guys feed your fish a number of times a day).


Just been feeding freeze dried black worms, blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, and the occasional live white worm. I feed mine 2-3 times a day 2-3 cubes per feeding. Haven't really ventured into pellets or flakes yet.

[JBurgo]

So Phil, you feed only FDBW, I would be afraid that this wouldn't provide a balanced diet, I guess in that case they could be a staple then without a problem. Do you use the standard ones or the ones with additives? The fish certainly love then, I mean none hit the bottom of the tank in my aquarium because they smash them, nice and clean. You also said you add Prime after aging your water 24 hrs, why is that? I usually age 24 minimum and if I hit under 24 for some reason I use Prime, but after 24 (which is normally) I don't bother. Is there a particular danger after 24 hrs for Wilds, or are you just being extra cautious?

How many fish have you got Paul, and how mature? Just so I can get a gauge on 6-9 cubes of food a day, that to me sounds like a huge amount of food. I always feel like I need to resist overfeeding. I mean, I'm trying to bulk my fish up and I'm not coming close to what you're feeding yours as normal routine. Do I need to up my feeding? I think the processed foods I use probably have more concentrated energy though.

With the mid-week water change I'm getting 10-20ppm (I can't tell the difference on the API kit) Nitrates too.

[woopaul5]

I have 11 total. All are adults with the exception of 1 it's slightly smaller than an adult but has been growing.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/woopaul5/Wild%20Discus%20thread%20pics/92BFA691-5AA0-400D-8E41-F7EA072CA82C.jpg (http://s33.photobucket.com/user/woopaul5/media/Wild%20Discus%20thread%20pics/92BFA691-5AA0-400D-8E41-F7EA072CA82C.jpg.html)

Try purchasing a different brand of nitrate kit just to make sure. Ideally you want to be under 10ppm.

[JBurgo]

Stunning fish Paul, very healthy. I'll definitely buy a different brand next time, for now I think I can tell enough to know the direction it should head at least, I mean, I'll know when the orange is getting yellower for now. I'm pretty sure with mid week WCs it'll start to head in the lower direction. And I have something further to do about it, I'll be slowly changing to pool filter sand. With twice the fish I have, that explains the larger helpings. I've started 3 feeds a day too, 2 lighter feeds (pellets only) and one major feed with 2 frozen blocks + pellets. I'm also ordering a large bag of FDBW. What's the shelf life on the FDBW?

[JBurgo]

103255Just checking too, this is `good mood` colouration, isn't it? Now that I've seen photos I'm more confident (the camera is picking up the colours), it's just that under the lighting at night and when he's at the front of the tank with the lighting behind it looks darker. This is my first Heckel, so I'm still getting used to him.

[Second Hand Pat]

If you decide to go with the PFS you will see a major difference in that the fish will really lighten up. Discus will lighten or darken based on their surroundings.
Pat

[JBurgo]

They change colours pretty regularly, I like when the big Cuipeua drops the stress bars in and out and goes between reds and oranges. The Heckel drops the centre bar and the brown goes to a deep maroon. They change colours much more than my domestics used to. They truly are amazing fish.

[woopaul5]

Shelf life on the fdbw varies on how you take care of them. If you leave the bag unsealed they go fairly quick. A good indication that they are stale is if your fish stop eating them. I,m a firm believer that this is a discus' favorite treat!

They're more of mood bars vs stress bars like on domestics. You'll see all sorts of patterns with wilds. It's not confirmed as far as I know but from experience if you have the last 3-4 bars darker than the first few they may be ready to spawn. If you look under my homestead or in the amazon section I have plenty of threads on my journey with these wilds of mine.

[JBurgo]

I'll definitely go with the PFS Pat, I'll probably do the change out in about 5 or 6 weeks time. I'll do my Angelfish tank at the same time.

Your wilds are amazing Paul, very interesting to see your story and the spawning pair. Everyone's fish here are amazing, especially the amount and quality of the all the wilds! There certainly isn't that sort of availability here in Australia, I was so lucky to get what I got, and I simply had to take what was there. So of course, without a doubt I will be doing everything I can to keep them the best as I can manage. I'm starting to get used to navigating my way around here.

[JBurgo]

103304103305
Some poo pics, because of course.. that's what we want to see.
This is from the Brown Cameta, he's one of the skinnier of the fish.
I wormed with Wormer Plus day one, and it biodegrades to 0 after 4 days, so it's been just over a week since there was any trace of the wormer in the tank.
His poo was really stringy and white when he arrived, it's now still got some opaque sections occasionally as in the photos, but it's showing improvement. He eats like a horse, there's no problem there.
I'm thinking about a second dose, sometimes a second dose is needed.
Just want to know, in your experience, is this likely just still passing what he had, or still an active infestation (a week later)?

[Second Hand Pat]

I would wait and see if it's poop returns to normal.
Pat

[JBurgo]

Thanks Pat, and thanks for your quick replies.
This is the first time I've seen a suspect poop in any of them since they passed what they had when I wormed.
You're probably right, they're probably still clearing out their gut.
I just know enough to be concerned and keep my eye on them at the moment.

[JBurgo]

103396103397
I'm considering buying 4 Wild Caught Dumerilli Angels, with a view to them sharing the 8' tank with the Wild Discus, at least while they all grow, possibly to have their own tank in the future.
I've heard it said that Angels and Discus shouldn't be mixed for a) disease reasons and b) aggression. But at the moment I keep a pair of Domestic Angels with a single Domestic Discus in another community tank and they all get on fine.
I'd like to know a few things:
If there's a way to tell females and males in the Dumerilli?
If there's foreseeable problems with this mix in the 8' tank (I'm inclined to believe there's enough room for them all)?
If the fish with the damaged Ventral fin will grow it back?

[Second Hand Pat]

I can not answer your question about these particular angels but I have raised both wild Altum and currently have F1 Altum angels. I will tell you that I will not mix the angels with the discus. Angel are faster at eating the food and tend to hoard it. Then these is always the disease issue.
Pat

[JBurgo]

I've done some research, they're probably misnamed, the true name being Leopoldi I think. They're the smallest of the 3 species. Some say they're aggressive, and others (usually people who have owned them) say they are all bluff and then only towards their own species, not aggressive towards other tank mates. It's pretty tempting to give it a go. As you said though, I'm concerned about upsetting the delicate balance of what's essentially working at the moment by adding another factor. Wild Leopoldi are pretty rare fish, especially in Australia.

The disease issue seems to be Hexamita, which Angelfish apparently have a resistance to.

[Second Hand Pat]

My main reason for not mixing is having the discus get enough food. Since you are trying to recover these wilds I would suggest getting them in a healthy state before mixing with anything else.
Pat

[JBurgo]

Yeah, the other possibility is that the Angels will over-feed too. Pity, the Leopoldi are really nice fish. I think they'd probably get on with the Discus under normal circumstances, especially considering the size of the tank and stocking, there's plenty of room. There's been recent import changes in Australia, making all Wilds more difficult to get. These fish will only become more difficult to get. It would be good to take them on because at least I know I would be prepared to breed them and put some stock back into the hobby here. I wouldn't want them to go to a display tank only.

[JBurgo]

Update: My heart got the better of me. 2 new Tefes joined the tank today, that makes 9 now. They came from the same source in the same condition the others did, pretty light but eating well, white stringy poop. I didn't quarantine them because they were from the same tank previously.

I gave a dose of Wormer Plus. and today is mid week water change, so I did that and coincidentally my Rooibos tea came today, so I made myself a cup and hit put 5 tablespoons in the sump (about 650 litre tank). The photos were taken before the tea went in. The tank is pretty dark, darker than I thought it would go, but the colour is growing on me. For me it's more to aid a bit with healing while they're recovering, even if it's just mood, which can be a huge thing with Discus in my experience.

I included a new group photo and a photo of each of the new fish. You can see the others are starting to put on some weight.
103867103868103869

[Second Hand Pat]

Those two look pretty rough JBurgo. Good luck with them. I do see some improvement in the rest of the group. Personally I would have QTed the new ones.
Pat

[JBurgo]

Yeah, not the best looking fish either, maybe the little one will be an ugly duckling. But I don't think the aim has been entirely about good looking fish.

And you're right, they're condition is pretty rough, I'm aware that if I don't take them they're probably not going to make it. I don't have a quarantine tank set up and running at the moment though, so setting one up quickly would result in too much shock for them, you can see they wouldn't handle that well. I just considered my options and they had been together for a long time prior, and nothing had been added to the previous tank since I got the others, so the chances are less that something additional will come in that my fish can't deal with were lower. I absolutely know your point.

That little brown on the right of the Tefe at the front, he's done well, he was the thinnest fish in the tank, now he's actually got some meat. I'm pretty sure their growth will be stunted and they won't come to their potential, but hopefully they will fatten up and they certainly have great personalities.

Jas

[Filip]

Yeah, not the best looking fish either, maybe the little one will be an ugly duckling. But I don't think the aim has been entirely about good looking fish.

And you're right, they're condition is pretty rough, I'm aware that if I don't take them they're probably not going to make it. I don't have a quarantine tank set up and running at the moment though, so setting one up quickly would result in too much shock for them, you can see they wouldn't handle that well. I just considered my options and they had been together for a long time prior, and nothing had been added to the previous tank since I got the others, so the chances are less that something additional will come in that my fish can't deal with were lower. I absolutely know your point.

That little brown on the right of the Tefe at the front, he's done well, he was the thinnest fish in the tank, now he's actually got some meat. I'm pretty sure their growth will be stunted and they won't come to their potential, but hopefully they will fatten up and they certainly have great personalities.

Jas

You can start a QT tank and put fish in it rightaway Jason.
Just take a seeded sponge from your main tank , start 100% fresh water and you are good to go and put the emaciated discus for recovery.
They will eat much more by themselves in there , and their water quality would be much better in BB tank .
I would give it a try IIWY.

[JBurgo]

Thanks for the advice, I actually took the 2 new ones back to the guy this morning. I was too nervous about it and I just didn't want to take the risk after all.

[JBurgo]

We've all done hasty things, hopefully there's no adverse affects in my tank for this little side adventure. My problem was I had some photos of those 2 on my ipad, and I started being concerned for them. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and ruin what's working, I'd be pretty upset if it all went south.. and I know it can.

I've still payed a lot of money for these fish, even in their condition, and I don't really want to advocate to new Discus keepers to run off and buy sick fish, because it will likely end bad if they do. The fish I got were vigorously eating and very active even in their condition, and speaking with the seller, there were reasons for this other than disease, sometimes other things in peoples lives take priorities. I still went into it with both fingers crossed and I don't think I'm out of the woods yet.

That being said, I think I'm due for putting some more `viewable` progress photos up. The two that I still have concerns for are the ones on the far right. The Tefe holds his own, but he's a bit of a picky eater, he prefers to eat the small bits after someone else has torn them away from a larger piece. The other one, I was told was a green, but I think has more brown in it (wouldn't mind help identifying it), it's the smallest and at the bottom of the pecking order, and just not making as much progress for that reason. The brown worries me a little for bloat because he's ravenous, but recently the other fish have got sick of him and they all gang up and chase him away when there's food, which is actually working out because he sneaks back and grabs a mouthful and runs away with it enough times to be eating normally. I don't think it's a problem because he digests it and it goes back down, I just have to watch him because he's a pig.
103898

[Second Hand Pat]

The one second in from the far right is a green for sure.
Pat

[JBurgo]

Thanks Pat, the way I have it is (left to right): Tefe Green (maybe a female), Cuipea, Uatamu Blue, Rio Negro Heckel, Brown Cameta, Tefe Green (maybe a male) and Green.

I took the photos on an angle to show their weight, so here's a few from the side:
Cuipea, Brown Cameta, Uatamu Blue, Green.
103902

[JBurgo]

Bit of an update, they're all stacking on the weight now and I even think they're starting to grow.

All except the smallest, who is the lowest in the pecking order. I got concerned for him because he started hiding, so I removed all structures and forced him to `hide in amongst the others` and he's settling back to normal, albeit he's always been the pickiest eater, he does eat, but not much and mostly off the bottom. I was considering a divider but it hasn't come to that yet, I want him to get a position in the group on his own if possible. More concerning is recently he's been startling and charging across `the 8 foot tank` at full pace and smashing into the wall on the other side, then tuning around and crossing the tank again and hitting the other wall. He's done this a number of times, it's painful to watch. I think he's getting over doing it, the runs got smaller and he hasn't done it in a while. Could this be a symptom of something else though? The parameters are all as before, temp is 30-31 deg ATM. I'm thinking of dosing with some API General Cure as a precaution.