Urgent question about all fish breathing heavy & question about tank filter

[james_uk]

Hi, i have a fluval roma 240L tank which comes with a fluval 306 filter, the outlet is the fixed one that has 2 built in tubes on the back right for inlet/outlet.

Up to now i had a tank with 4 discus, 14 cardinal tetra, 8 rummy nose tetra & 6 corys.
The fish seemed fine at this point.

I have just added another 4 discus i got today and i have noticed that all the fish including the tiny cardinals are all breathing through their mouths pretty fast and constant.

Apart from adding the new fish, the only other recent changes is putting clearmax media into the filter and also adding something called easycarbo to the tank due to our plants not being great and suffering from a lot of algae, since using this the algae has reduced by about half, but can adding this carbon (co2) or the clearmax reduce the oxygen for the fish?

If this isnt the case then it must be the filter isn’t supplying enough oxygen to the tank.

Because i have been franticly trying to change the filter outlet i only learn before that the outlet actually goes up and down to the point where you can even have it out the water where the water is running into the tank like a tap, i assume no oxygen would then be going into the tank, or is it the sheer bubbles the water flowing into the tank from above and splashing that actually creates the bubbles?

anyway i am not wondering if i even have the outlet set right, i just left it how it come in the pack, so i put the outlet in all the way in, and from pictures i have seen pointed the nozzles fully up so that they were creating a flow and ripples at the top of the tank, if i lift the outlet more nearer to the top (but so its still under the water) you get more flow and ripples, is that what i would b best doing? i am trying that right now for the last 30 mins and they don’t seem to be breathing any better.

I read that they shouldn’t be breathing through their mouths at all so that’s why I’m so worried.

Can anyone advise at all, if there anyone who has my tank who can also advise on the outlet and nozzle setup?

Thanks

James

[Filip]

Hi James . Are you new to discus ? Are you sure their breathing is irregular ?

The best thing you can do for discus when in trouble is to change big % of Water - 90%. Do you age your water and how much do you change .

Easy carbo is a liquid Co2 and an algaecid and it might interfere with fish abbility to utilize O2 , if overdosed . How much did you dose ?

What kind of plants do you keep and what type is the substrate , how deep it is?

For best oxigenization of water it is best to make the most surface agtation you can manage with your outlet . Better surface movement , better gass exchange and thus more O2 .


As you see i allready ask you too many questions , so it would be great if you can start your own thread about your tank and provide as much info as you can with pictures on top of it . That way we can get the whole picture and give you more accurate pointers and solutions . Otherwise its almost shooting blanks at target.

[DJW]

There might be a mini-cycle from adding 4 more fish. A symptom of ammonia or nitrite toxicity is an inability to get enough oxygen. Best to change water as Filip suggests and check the ammonia and nitrite.

[Ryan925]

Hi James . Are you new to discus ? Are you sure their breathing is irregular ?

The best thing you can do for discus when in trouble is to change big % of Water - 90%. Do you age your water and how much do you change .

Easy carbo is a liquid Co2 and an algaecid and it might interfere with fish abbility to utilize O2 , if overdosed . How much did you dose ?

What kind of plants do you keep and what type is the substrate , how deep it is?

For best oxigenization of water it is best to make the most surface agtation you can manage with your outlet . Better surface movement , better gass exchange and thus more O2 .


As you see i allready ask you too many questions , so it would be great if you can start your own thread about your tank and provide as much info as you can with pictures on top of it . That way we can get the whole picture and give you more accurate pointers and solutions . Otherwise its almost shooting blanks at target.

I don't know about his particular product but I have purposely overdosed excel to rid the tank of algae. That is a very beneficiary side effect of that particular liquid co2. It did however cause heavy breathing of tank inhabitants. Not discus...

As far as the return goes the surface break is what is going to help off gas the co2. Whether it's the return pointed up towards the surface or its positioned above the surface, cascading down like a HOB filter would

[james_uk]

Hi, thanks for your advice, I was adding 5ml of easycarb, as it's 1ml per 50l, I yesterday got them fish, while I was there they tested my water and said it's perfect but said it is low in carbon so we can double the dose per the bottle which says you can put 2ml per L if needed, so we come that also.

[MendoMan]

There might be a mini-cycle from adding 4 more fish. A symptom of ammonia or nitrite toxicity is an inability to get enough oxygen. Best to change water as Filip suggests and check the ammonia and nitrite.

This was my first thought especially when he said that he changed the filter media. Easy to test and determine if that's the problem.

[james_uk]

Hi, just to update everyone tonight.

When i put the clearmax in my filter i didn’t take anything out as i wasn’t using carbon in it, so i added the clearmax where the carbon would go.

Late last night i moved the outlet tube up so the nozzles were only a few cm under the water as opposed to around 3 inches which they were before, this created more even more agitation on the top of the water and through today the fish seem to be not breathing anywhere near as fast through their mouths as they were before.

In fact the discus are only moving their mouths pretty slow now, i am wondering, do discus move their mouths slowly naturally anyway, is this normal? or should they not be moving their mouths at all?

I don’t know if this is a stupid question but can the outlet by lifted out of the water so that both nozzles are just dropping water into the tank like a tap that’s on dropping water into a sink that’s half full? or does the outlet have to be within the water, i have certainly found the outlets nearer the top seems better than it being at its lower setting, i didn't realise the tube raised above the bottom before.

Does anyone think getting a pump would also be beneficial, are there any recommendations to a pump product that can give better aeration?

[Ryan925]

Hi, just to update everyone tonight.

When i put the clearmax in my filter i didn’t take anything out as i wasn’t using carbon in it, so i added the clearmax where the carbon would go.

Late last night i moved the outlet tube up so the nozzles were only a few cm under the water as opposed to around 3 inches which they were before, this created more even more agitation on the top of the water and through today the fish seem to be not breathing anywhere near as fast through their mouths as they were before.

In fact the discus are only moving their mouths pretty slow now, i am wondering, do discus move their mouths slowly naturally anyway, is this normal? or should they not be moving their mouths at all?

I don’t know if this is a stupid question but can the outlet by lifted out of the water so that both nozzles are just dropping water into the tank like a tap that’s on dropping water into a sink that’s half full? or does the outlet have to be within the water, i have certainly found the outlets nearer the top seems better than it being at its lower setting, i didn't realise the tube raised above the bottom before.

Does anyone think getting a pump would also be beneficial, are there any recommendations to a pump product that can give better aeration?

My guess is your double dose of liquid co2. I experienced the same issue when double dosing excel.

It would seem your increased surface movement has allowed the co2 to off gas so that your fish are having an easier time breathing.

As far as their mouths moving yes they should be. This is how fish pump water across their gills to breathe

[james_uk]

I got a bit worried because i initially read an article on a fish site saying all tropical fish should not be moving their mouths at all unless there is n issue such as low oxygen, as they should breath through their gills only, if they have to use their mouths it means they are having to try much harder to get the oxygen, is this not really the truth?

[Ryan925]

I got a bit worried because i initially read an article on a fish site saying all tropical fish should not be moving their mouths at all unless there is n issue such as low oxygen, as they should breath through their gills only, if they have to use their mouths it means they are having to try much harder to get the oxygen, is this not really the truth?

I'm no fish expert but don't all fish breathe by pumping water in through the mouth and across gills? If it doesn't go in through the mouth how does it reach the gills?

[DISCUS STU]

Can you give us some measurements of ammonia, ph, nitrite, and nitrate. Spikes in some of these can lead to this. What are the nitrate numbers?

[james_uk]

Hi, i have just done a water test and they are the following:

PH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20ppm

the fish actually look like they are breathing fine now, although since adding them all, they seem to have taken to all staying in one corner together.

[atlantadiscus]

Keep up on daily water changes of at least 50% til that filter catches up to the increased fish load.....ammonia should be 0.000000ppm

[DISCUS STU]

Hi, i have just done a water test and they are the following:

PH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20ppm

the fish actually look like they are breathing fine now, although since adding them all, they seem to have taken to all staying in one corner together.

Ammonia and nitrate on the high side. Keep up the water changes.

All the Best,

Stu

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: Yep, gotta agree w/ Stu. W/C's, W/C's, W/C's are the best way to weather a mini-cycle. The fish will stop stressing, relax & fan out when the parameters stabilize. "T"

[james_uk]

Hi everyone, here is a short vid of the amount of agitation the filter is making, can anyone tel me does that look sufficient for my tank to be creating enough oxygen?

also in the vid i have shown someof the discus, can you tell me if their breathing looks 100% normal or does it look heavy etc?

https://vid.me/Uu51

thanks

James

[Phillydubs]

James,

Looks it a bit rapid to me... Were they just fed or expecting food...?

Did you approach them quickly?

Have you noticed any other ill effects since the new fish were added? You could have introduced something...

the flow looks ok at the top. I would add a sponge filter maybe or an air stone to get things going. Have you ever used aquarium salt? API makes some and I have used it for a while now could help the breahting

[james_uk]

All the bigger discus seem to be breathing like that most of the time, the smaller ones look better, just tested my tap water that seems to be around 0.25 to 0.5ppm for ammonia straight out the tap

[atlantadiscus]

TRy to point the output upwards a little more to agitate the surface as much as you can without the water splashing out of the tank.Your water surface has a heavy film on it which can degrade oxygen exchange,need to find source of that film{food?}.I have had temporary success in removing it by turning off the filter so the water is calm,then floating paper towels or a sheet of newspaper across the surface-it blots it up,restart filters afterwards,obviously!

[james_uk]

The outlets are pointing up as much as they go, u can lift the tube up more, but it's already about 3cm from the water line, lifting it slightly more will cause a little more agitation though, would that be best?

[DISCUS STU]

I would add a sponge filter maybe or an air stone to get things going

Air stones are almost always a good idea. Philly, I've read that Kosher Salt, no iodine, is as good as API or some other type of salt sold to the hobby, and much less expensive.

[james_uk]

What about powerheads? If I was to get one, what sort of power would be best? Or would air stones be better?

[james_uk]

Im slightly confused now because in regards to what you have said here regarding making more flow, on another forum that i have also asked for help on where i also posted that video, i have had a response saying:

You only need a rippling effect on the surface to get decent gas exchange. The Discus are breathing heavily and they look stressed. You need to get the ammonia down to 0 and also consider that it may possibly be that there is too much water flow. Discus don't like a lot of flow in the tank.

the last time i checked the water only the other day, it was:

PH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20ppm

I have been putting melafix in recently because the discus where seeming to get scared from time to time and all franticly swimming about, one had a little bit of a minor cut which looks like is healing nicely now.

as said above the only other changes i had made recently was adding easycarb which i doubled the dose to 2ml per 50L with the advice from my lfs who tested my water and said the carbon was still low with the lower dose of 1ml per 50L the other change was starting to use clearmax in the filter which says that it reduces phosphates, nitrite and nitrate.

[Akili]

Your Nitrate levels are too high, Do a few daily water changes and stop wasting your time and money by medicating in a planted tank,very little success is achieved in planted tanks.Surface agitation is good as long the current in the tank is not too rapid.Aim for Nitrate levels of less then 10 ppm.

[james_uk]

Thanks, are you referring to easy carb or clear max of both?

[Filip]

The same info. goes here too. Good surface aggitation without too much current in the tank . Although excess current cannot make discus breathe harder but only make them more skittish , not moving and hiding .
I suspect the double dose of liquid co2 . Make a couple of daily 80% water changes through the week and see how it goes.

[DISCUS STU]

What about powerheads? If I was to get one, what sort of power would be best? Or would air stones be better?

I don't use powerheads anymore. They always produced too much current and battered my fish around. Some good airstones get the job done without throwing my fish around the tank. If my fish have to avoid certain areas of the tank then I consider this a waste of space in effect making the tank in practical terms a little smaller.

[james_uk]

Hi, just an update on the fish, i have been doing big changes each day, i also invested in the 406 filter and had also been treating with melafix and anti slime and velvet, today just out of the blue when the tank lights came on he looked nearly his old self, he looks the light blue he was before instead of black and his eyes also look so much better, he has managed to stay like this the whole day right up until now. No side fins sticking to him, hes been active all day, if not the most active, he was like this when we first got him.

Here is a pic of him now, he is the one on the right.

https://s15.postimg.org/rqlc9ux57/20161120_151221.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/rqlc9ux53/)upload an image (https://postimage.org/)

James