ready to give up!

[FishyRobert]

good afternoon everyone!

OK, 65 gallon tank, about 84 degrees, two LARGE sponge filters, one fluvial 406 canister filter

changed 30 gallons yesterday, so, shut off Fluval for maybe ten minutes?

fish happy. fed ONE frozen bloodworm pellet as usual.

today, 5 of 7 catfish DEAD. all 3 discus very sick. one laying on top of water. discus have WHITE FILM ON THEIR EYES.

in fear, i REMOVED the Fluval filter, changed 30 gallons, will change 30 again after dinner. turned up air flow on the 2 big sponge filters.

temp 84. ammonia ZERO. what the hell is going on???

HELP!!

about ready to give up. i successfully kept and bred and raised angels, just recently, and 2 very happy reef tanks with all live corals. what am i missing here???????????

[Ryan925]

Is there anyway you could have forgotten dechlorinator?

[rickztahone]

Is there anyway you could have forgotten dechlorinator?

+1. Did you forget the water conditioner?

If so, the damage may be done now but not all the bacteria should have died. Use some prime or something to neutralize and go from there. However, at this point we will need pictures of your discus

[Candydiscus]

Lower the water temps is one thing i would do.. drop it down to 80f so your fish can breathe at least. As for what caused your issue.. did you add any new discus or fish recently ?

Only time i had discus die this quickly was either ammonia which i didnt realize was in the tank, or discus plague but the plague took like a week to kill 3 of my discus and 3 others survived

[DISCUS STU]

Don't give up! It's a worthwhile endeavor but sometimes it takes a while to get the hang of this. I've had various blow outs, lost everything and had to start again. Even after all these years I'm still learning but once you get your "best practices" in place you'll achieve great results.

[tonytheboss1]

:sorry: Bad break friend but don't throw in the towel. No one enjoys set backs but sometimes these things happen. Dose w/ Safe or Prime & increase to LARGE W/C's in short periods. Trust me it's the best med I've seen. Lastly mark this in your book under one of many amazing episodes in the adventure of DISCUS keeping. Next chapter!! "T"

[Candydiscus]

Yea ive been fish keeping for 20 years.. and im still learning.. discus ive had only for about 2 or 3 years... and thhe first 1 or 2 years i had like 10 discus die... mainly babies... and they were from petco... i found that the only fish that live are from breeders and discus that are a full sized 6 inches or more adults.

As for you.. there isnt enough info that you gave to why they might have died

[MarcG19]

I'm a beginner pondering discus, so I have nothing that I can contribute. But I just wanted to say I am very sorry to hear about your disaster. It's sobering (not in a "I don't want to bother" sense, but in a "perils exist" sense).

[FishyRobert]

thanks all! what is "safe" or "prime" and what do they do. I RESPECT all your ideas. if I forgot the declor, I use amquell, would it have that fast of an effect? would they have horrible white eyes? the betta is FINE, doing GREAT. the ammonia is ZERO. tested and retested with that api kit. did my town add more chloramine that day?

help!

[DISCUS STU]

thanks all! what is "safe" or "prime" and what do they do. I RESPECT all your ideas. if I forgot the declor, I use amquell, would it have that fast of an effect? would they have horrible white eyes? the betta is FINE, doing GREAT. the ammonia is ZERO. tested and retested with that api kit. did my town add more chloramine that day?

help!

These are water conditioners, like Amquel. I always try to double the recommended dose from the manufacturer. I use PRIME now but I used to use Amquel and Novaqua, they worked well together.

[Ryan925]

thanks all! what is "safe" or "prime" and what do they do. I RESPECT all your ideas. if I forgot the declor, I use amquell, would it have that fast of an effect? would they have horrible white eyes? the betta is FINE, doing GREAT. the ammonia is ZERO. tested and retested with that api kit. did my town add more chloramine that day?

help!

Amquel is the same as prime and safe. I use prime but used amquel in the past. Did you check all other water params aside from ammonia, when I first started using amquel my lfs told me I could double dose or even pour a whole bottle for that matter and have no negative effects. I double dosed a couple times and noticed a huge swing on ph everytime. This was only in a 10 gallon so don't know if that had any effect on it or not. Just kickin ideas around here. Hopefully you can get to the bottom of your problem.
Other things is if you decommisiond your canister that housed a lot of your beneficial bacteria. I'd check water params daily and do daily WCs. Your BB may need to catch back up after removing so much of it.

Yea ive been fish keeping for 20 years.. and im still learning.. discus ive had only for about 2 or 3 years... and thhe first 1 or 2 years i had like 10 discus die... mainly babies... and they were from petco... i found that the only fish that live are from breeders and discus that are a full sized 6 inches or more adults.


As for you.. there isnt enough info that you gave to why they might have died

Are you saying only 6" fish survive just in your case or as as a generality?

[FishyRobert]

hi ryan!
Did you check all other water params aside from ammonia,

*** what water parameters should I measure**** I have a nitrite test kit and a pH meter at work. bob

[Ryan925]

hi ryan!
Did you check all other water params aside from ammonia,

*** what water parameters should I measure**** I have a nitrite test kit and a pH meter at work. bob

I'd say to be safe test it all. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate ph. Since you don't know what's wrong I would say water is a good place to start

[jmf3460]

hang in there OP, we will get your problem figured out, that's what we are here for. Test all parameters and let us know. I too am suspicious of the chlorine but if you are sure you used the proper amount of Amquel then we can rule that out.

[FishyRobert]

thanks jmf! would chlorine do that in one night? milky eyes on the discus? 5 dead catfish? one discus died.

maybe I should NOT change 50% every other day???????

should I rinse out Fluval, add all NEW media and attach it to the tank again???????????????

help!

[jmf3460]

chlorine kills quick. Within minutes of a water change you can see fish up at the top of the water gasping for air. you could rinse out your media, if you chlorinated them its likely you killed all the beneficial bacteria anyway. you definitely SHOULD keep changing large amounts of water daily. we all know here that large water changes are incredibly beneficial.

[FishyRobert]

THANK YOU Jacklyn!

will totally rinse fluval, new media

I cannot believe discus are this hard.

I gotta believe that 3 (now 2) discus in a 65, with a big fluval and 2 huge sponge filters SHOULD work

thanks so much
bob

[Neptune]

So did you forget the dechlorinator???

Yes, it can happen that fast!

I over winter goldfish from my pond and a buddies. Last spring I gave him his fish back he threw them in the pond. His wife thought the water was too green so she added 2 tablespoons of chlorine to 100's of gallons of pond water.
Fish were dead in minutes!

[Phillydubs]

What was the temp of the added water? Do you age your water?

Could it be that the heater in the age barrell was broken or the water from your tap was too hot or cold?

[Dhavalsp]

I believe it was chlorine too...the fact that catfish were affected also points to the same...IMO if this was due to temp or Ph swings, catfish would have handled it better than discus...

For betta, it can easily take oxygen from surface and thats why it may be doing better...(don't quote me on this one)

[JBurgo]

Expiration date on dechlorinator?

[FishyRobert]

thanks everyone! if I forgot the declor, I deserve to suffer! wow!

for declor, I use Amquell plus. is that ok?

https://www.amazon.com/KORDON-Amquel-Plus-Aquarium-16-Ounce/dp/B006OONEOA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478783044&sr=8-1&keywords=kordon+amquel+plus

I put water into a 30 gallon new, clean garbage can, circulate overnight with a pump and heater. SHOULD be OK. I MUST have forgotten the declor. ugh.

I will not give up on discus yet. from what I hear, LARGE discus are stronger, will buy from Kenny or other reputable dealer!
I have to believe that two BIG sponge filters and Fluval 406 are plenty for a 65 gallon. only have two discus now, want to keep six.

do you guys use bacteria starter culture? any other hints?

thanks so very very much.
if I forgot declor, I am a dummy and I apologize to ALL of you
best regards
bob

[jmf3460]

amquel is just fine as a detoxifier your plan sounds exactly like what I do

[FishyRobert]

thank you Jacklyn!
I hope to succeed. I am trying very hard.

how many discus do you have in what size tank? filtration? how often change how much water.

best regards,
bob

[Ryan925]

thank you Jacklyn!
I hope to succeed. I am trying very hard.

how many discus do you have in what size tank? filtration? how often change how much water.

best regards,
bob

We all make mistakes Bob. The point as that you learn from them and apply your new found knowledge towards the future.

You are correct buying from a reputable sponsor gets you off on the right foot. Yes larger discus can be "easier." it's just they may require less feeding and WCs as they are mostly grown. Someone said you have to have 6" plus discus to succeed. I don't buy that.

I am new to discus since April. I got my fish 3"-4" from Kenny. They are all doing great. I have 7 in a 75 with an eheim canister. Your 306 plus 2 sponges should be more than enough filtration. I change 80% every other day. Works for me but every setup is different.

As far as bacteria I use seachem stability. There are mixed reviews on all BB products about their effectiveness.

Best thing is test water daily and large daily WCs until your bio catches up rather than rely on a product out of the bottle.

[jmf3460]

thank you Jacklyn!
I hope to succeed. I am trying very hard.

how many discus do you have in what size tank? filtration? how often change how much water.

best regards,
bob

Bob we all make mistakes, it takes a few mistakes to become an expert anyway so you are well on your way. In my discus tank I currently have 6 adult wild greens in a 75 gallon with some corydoras and dicrossus filamentosus, you can see my thread here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?123420-blackwater-biotope-tank-with-wild-greens-and-wild-laetacara-dorsigera

however; I am currently making payments on a bigger tank, an acrylic beveled corner tank that will be 56" x 23" x 22" so between 110-120 gallons we still haven't decided on the thickness of the acrylic but I think it will be 1/2" making my tank 115 gallons I think. I have one payment left (or two) and then a 10 week wait for manufacturing

[FishyRobert]

super! thanks! will check it out!

do you like Kenny cheung discus? seems well known, on this forum

good luck with big tank! bob

[Ryan925]

super! thanks! will check it out!

do you like Kenny cheung discus? seems well known, on this forum

good luck with big tank! bob

Kennys fish are high quality (as are the other sponsors) and you won't find a nicer guy.

[tonytheboss1]

thanks all! what is "safe" or "prime" and what do they do.


thanks everyone! if I forgot the declor, I deserve to suffer! wow!
for declor, I use Amquell plus. is that ok?

:bandana: Sorry for delay, I was tied up. It's really a matter of choice. I've used both Amquel & Amquel+ with success on other tanks with other fish. Prime & Safe by Seachem are also conditioners that do an excellent job at removing or nullifying the nasties. (Chlorine, Chloramine and Ammonia & detoxifies Nitrite and Nitrate) Prime also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Safe Is The Dry Version Of Prime And Shares All Of Its Advantages, however Safe is more Concentrated & thus for me more economical. As w/ everything, some will swear by one or the other.
As for being a 'dummy', no such thing!! Mistakes are an unfortunate part of the learning process. WE ALL MAKE THEM!! File it away in the 'been there, done that, got the tee shirt' file & keep it movin'! lol "T"

[Donethur]

Maybe the light was cut in the night and the stress per temperature plus lack of oxygen could be one cause. How your filter is localed?. The betta is fine maybe because he can resist lack of o2 and lower temperature. Just my 2 cents.

[Donethur]

I mean, do you have such problems in the US? :D

In my country i time to time the electricity goes down, not that common but it happens.


Other theory is the ph change, but not sure if they would die the same night.

[1..]

thanks everyone! if I forgot the declor, I deserve to suffer! wow!

for declor, I use Amquell plus. is that ok?

https://www.amazon.com/KORDON-Amquel-Plus-Aquarium-16-Ounce/dp/B006OONEOA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478783044&sr=8-1&keywords=kordon+amquel+plus

I put water into a 30 gallon new, clean garbage can, circulate overnight with a pump and heater. SHOULD be OK. I MUST have forgotten the declor. ugh.

I will not give up on discus yet. from what I hear, LARGE discus are stronger, will buy from Kenny or other reputable dealer!
I have to believe that two BIG sponge filters and Fluval 406 are plenty for a 65 gallon. only have two discus now, want to keep six.

do you guys use bacteria starter culture? any other hints?

thanks so very very much.
if I forgot declor, I am a dummy and I apologize to ALL of you
best regards
bob
Is there any chance the garbage can has some problems? Because I have heard some people's discus died due to a new non-food grade garbage can. And you mentioned it circulated overnight, it has enough time to release the toxin of the can. So I usually use a spare fish tank for aging water. And with air stone I only age 3-4 hours. Just guessing.

[LizStreithorst]

The most obvious thing is that you forgot or under dosed the declor.

You are new. This is your first disaster. It was not even a total disaster. I've been around for a good while. What you have been through is nothing compared to all that I've been through due to my own ignorance and disreputable sellers. Yet you are ready to give up while I decide to always soldier on? One of us must be crazy. If you are like me you'll suck it up, learn from your mistakes, and move on.

[Ryan925]

It's been awhile since the OP has posted. Curious how things turned out...

Hope you chalked it up to a simple mistake and a lesson learned Robert.

[Donethur]

I dont think it was chlorine itself which caused this, I have a friend who doesnt remove chlorine from the water (bad practice, I know), but their fish dont die. I think it may burn the fins of the fish and cause injuries in several parts, but I dont think it would cause the death of the fish. But it may be chlorine affecting the water cycle, thats is what chlorine could really cause in my opinion (my friend removes ammonia with the daily water changes of course, this explain why they are still alive). If your water changes are not proper, and maybe the size of the tanks + the amount of fish matters, then you could see this happening. BUT your ammonia test suggest that this possibility is not what happened. If you did this, all bacteries should be decreased, then you should see some ammonia in the test. So thats why I dont think it is chlorine.

A power cut in the electricity during the night is other option as I said, not perceptible because Robert was sleeping at that time. It may be an oxygen issue, corys are very strong with water parameters, and considering your tests, all indicates it was lack of o2. On the other hand. corys mostly would die if oxygen is not enough. Betta is OK because he needs a lot less o2. The stress (eyes with strange white colouration) may be lack of o2 + temperature decrease.

Other option is lack of o2 because the filter was not well possitionated and the gas interchange didnt occur between the water and the atmosphere, did you wash the filter and posisionated it again?. It must move the surface.


my 2 cents.

[Donethur]

chlorine kills quick. Within minutes of a water change you can see fish up at the top of the water gasping for air. you could rinse out your media, if you chlorinated them its likely you killed all the beneficial bacteria anyway. you definitely SHOULD keep changing large amounts of water daily. we all know here that large water changes are incredibly beneficial.


Really?, have you seen that?. I have seen something really different. Apart from the example above, I remember when I was kid (I was 10 years old, 27 years ago) and I used to had an aquarium, I used to remove chlorine in the aquarium itself, with the fish already inside, never saw what you say (of course, now I corrected all those practices!).

So maybe the level of chlorine in the US may be differentthan in other countries. Nonetheless, what calls my attention is the test stating the ammonia is zero, with chlorine the bacteries should die, and the test should mark some ammonia, per logic. Unless, they were not practically affected, which may be weird if the fish was affected in that way.

[Candydiscus]

Yea i have seen chlorine kill fish quickly.. One time i forgot to add prime in one of my tanks when i did was 80% water change and when the tank was nearly full from the sink using my python.. I had like 7-8 fish that were nearly dead and some trying to jump out of the tank.. I dosed 3x normal amount of prime and thankfully they calmed down after a big.. Plus you also dont know how much chlorine is in your water.. I just had my water company come here as i measured nitrates in my city tap water.. there should be 0.. They tested my water and found 2-3ppm of nitrates.. not alot but it still should be 0 not 2-3 for city water. Also the chlorine was 2.5ppm.. Sometimes it can go to 4.0ppm. I live in northern VA if this matters

This is why when i dose prime.. In say my 55g tank, i dont just use 1 capfull per 50g like the bottle says.. I use two capfulls.. In my 92g corner bowfront i use 3 capfulls.. I double dose on all my tanks to be sure.


I remember before i learned about how to properly care for fish my mom would always tell me to never change the water in the tank LOL, and her reason was because when she changed her water it always killed her fish.. thats because she never removed the chlorine lol

[Donethur]

Interesting info man, thanks. Then it may depend on the country, or even more, on the place itself.

[Danial]

I just want to say, don't you give up, let's take the last chance. Hope you have luck!

[TinoL]

Prior to me having any discus in the tank, I have changed 5 gallon per day out of my 120 with no dechlorinator with absolutely zero effects. My longest fish was a 12 year old Dempsey and a 15 year old Pleco. I had Congo tetra that lived about 6.5 years and died of old age. Maybe all these fish are far less sensitive than discus but even my Clown loach did and are still doing fine. Since adding some discus, I don't do straight tap water any more but nothing seemed to suffer. Not sure if being planted does anything or if its that its only a small portion of the water per day. Not sure if aeration clears chlorine at all but I have an Eheim 2260 pushing lots of water so huge surface agitation. Either way, that's been my experience.