Wild Discus Live in Muddy Amazon Water

[CammieTime]

Wild discus live in muddy amazon water, so why on earth do they require pristine clean water with regular massive water changes in captivity? It can't just be from the food we feed them that gunk up the tanks, hence the water changes. Our tank discus really like clean, clean water, but they evolved in muddy river water. This makes no sense. Does anyone know why this is?

[pitdogg2]

because millions upon millions of gallons of water go by ....Do you have that in your tank? Turbidity should not be confused with bad quality

[CammieTime]

because millions upon millions of gallons of water go by ....Do you have that in your tank? Turbidity should not be confused with bad quality

Yes but the dissolved solids are extremely high. Discus fish in the tank seem think they evolved in Crater Lake.

[brewmaster15]

Wild Discus dont live in muddy amazon water. They live in tannin stained water though. They live in soft acidic water. They live in water that has the largest biological filtration and water change system in the world.

The type of water and environment they live in is very hard for us to duplicate.It has very low bacterial counts as a result . In most peoples tanks its not possible to duplicate this but what we have found is we just need to match the low bacterial counts and low dissolved pollutants ....water changes accomplish this and allow us to keep discus in a wide variety of pH ranges and less than ideal tap water.

Food we feed plays a major role as well as the lack of a complete eco system in a fish tank. Add to that the stocking density per gallons of water ..its a wonder fish survive at all in fish tanks!

At least those are my views.

Al

[PAR23]

It has very low bacterial counts as a result . In most peoples tanks its not possible to duplicate this but what we have found is we just need to match the low bacterial counts
Al

This is the concept which I have adopted from day 1. Along with their immune system, large volume WCs results in lower "nasties" count and that was what kept discus healthy and happy. All of the other parameters we measure and discuss are just surrogates for the level of bacterial/fungal/viral load in the tanks.

[adrian31@outlook.com]

Hi CammieTime:

I heard that though the water might look cloudy to us it is actually very fresh 'clean' water. I just googled this topic and read that the Amazon empties 175,000 cubic meters of water into the Atlantic ocean every second. That's a staggering amount. The Amazon Rainforest receives 108 inches of rain annually so alot of fresh water going in to cause that.

[Willie]

I think you're missing Brew's point. At very low pH, there's extremely low bacterial count - regardless of whether it looks muddy to you.

A simple demonstration is the way the fry feed off the slime from the parents. Why did this nutritional system evolve - other species do not do this? Because there's nothing else for the fry to eat. When you spawn blue rams, you can feed them by squeezing the sponge filter. They feed on the bacteria and protozoan. But at low pH common to the Amazon basin, pH 3.5 - 4.5, there is very little growing - except for rare bacterial types called acidophiles.

Now, it's very difficult to maintain low pH - say 5.0 or lower - in a glass box. I've tried it when raising Heckels and I can tell you that there's very little room for error. So your best bet is to make giant water changes to keep the microfauna population down.

Willie

[DISCUS STU]

This is the concept which I have adopted from day 1. Along with their immune system, large volume WCs results in lower "nasties" count and that was what kept discus healthy and happy. All of the other parameters we measure and discuss are just surrogates for the level of bacterial/fungal/viral load in the tanks.

This is basically it. Though Amazon waters are turbid with lots of particulates in it making it look muddy, it is relatively low in harmful bacteria, unlike our closed system fish tanks that build up nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, and can have extreme ph crashes, etc. if not properly maintained. This is all extremely harmful to our fish, especially Discus which come from relatively low ph (acidic) waters where the low ph also acts as a germicide. Their immune systems just aren't geared to deal with these stresses in the same way a goldfish or a Betta can.

So even though the Amazon water is muddy looking it isn't harmful. Clear water doesn't always mean it's the better. Clean floors equate to cleanliness, muddy river water doesn't necessarily.

[Neptune]

I think you're missing Brew's point. At very low pH, there's extremely low bacterial count - regardless of whether it looks muddy to you.

A simple demonstration is the way the fry feed off the slime from the parents. Why did this nutritional system evolve - other species do not do this? Because there's nothing else for the fry to eat. When you spawn blue rams, you can feed them by squeezing the sponge filter. They feed on the bacteria and protozoan. But at low pH common to the Amazon basin, pH 3.5 - 4.5, there is very little growing - except for rare bacterial types called acidophiles.

Now, it's very difficult to maintain low pH - say 5.0 or lower - in a glass box. I've tried it when raising Heckels and I can tell you that there's very little room for error. So your best bet is to make giant water changes to keep the microfauna population down.

Willie

Great info Willie! Appreciate it! Always learning!

[brewmaster15]

I think you're missing Brew's point. At very low pH, there's extremely low bacterial count - regardless of whether it looks muddy to you.

A simple demonstration is the way the fry feed off the slime from the parents. Why did this nutritional system evolve - other species do not do this? Because there's nothing else for the fry to eat. When you spawn blue rams, you can feed them by squeezing the sponge filter. They feed on the bacteria and protozoan. But at low pH common to the Amazon basin, pH 3.5 - 4.5, there is very little growing - except for rare bacterial types called acidophiles.

Now, it's very difficult to maintain low pH - say 5.0 or lower - in a glass box. I've tried it when raising Heckels and I can tell you that there's very little room for error. So your best bet is to make giant water changes to keep the microfauna population down.

Willie

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: thank you Willie!

[pitdogg2]

Willies is correct in my understanding there is not much as far as small edible fauna because of the acidic conditions.

There are other fish that evolved this process it has been documented by Mo Devlin and others that raised these fish before the location was completely trashed and they may or may not be in the wild anymore. Managuensis from La Ceiba, Honduras these are much different that other Managuensis in color and in the way they feed their young. They also feed from parents slime from what I understood from Mo was that the area was also very acidic.

The link here: http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/today-in-the-fishroom-the-parachromis-managuensis-breeding-cycle-full-article.htm

If you skip down to ACT NINE it is documented. Others he had sent fish to also experienced the same so it was not a one time thing.

From time to time Jeff Rapps was getting Some in La Ceiba' Managuensis is what the trade name was.

[afriend]

I agree completely with brewmaster15 and others on this thread that the main problem in keeping discus is the control of pathogens (bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus), and not necessarily water parameters or clarity. This is accomplished by reducing their food supply (ie organic compounds). I have posted on this subject several times, and a summary of this is contained in the following link:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important

SeaChem produces a product called Purigen which absorbs organic compounds and does very well when used in a reactor. I've been using this product for several years now and still amazed at how effective it is. A second SeaChem product called Pristine, although not quite as effective as Purigen, also assists with the reduction of organic compounds. I use both products in my show tank.

Using these products together, along with other filtration elements, has allowed me to mechanize a filtration system that reduces organic compounds to near zero and this reduces tank maintenance considerably. The only thing I do daily is feed the fish. Then once a month I clean the filters and the interior of the tank. Uneaten food and feces are automatically removed by the filtration system. Water exchange is accomplished with a drip system. The following link contains lots of pictures and all the details on how and why this system works. The amazing thing is that the filtration system reduces algae to zero and the tank remains pristine clean for an entire month.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas

Paul

[Neptune]

No offense to the OP but these threads show up often.
I think the underlying theme is more like:

Discus live in really muddy water, so why do I have to change water so frequently?

[pastry]

Because once they get a taste of the champagne life then they don't want to go back to the mud huts... :antlers:

Seriously though, enough YouTube videos to see Discus in the wild. Sometimes not the greatest visibility but always better than the outgoing tides here in Charleston with plenty of silt and puff mud. Put any fish in a tank where you change the water often like with Discus keepers and you'll see better growth, behaviors, and health. With water pumps for cheap now, changing the water is eeeaaasy.

[Willie]

If you make enough water changes, then purigen, activated charcoal and other brands of ion exchange resin are redundant. I like the KISS approach and save all my money for fish.

Willie

[nevsfish]

If you make enough water changes, then purigen, activated charcoal and other brands of ion exchange resin are redundant. I like the KISS approach and save all my money for fish.

Willie100% correct keep it simple which means less to go wrong.clean tank ,water changes(large and often)the right temp and good food= happy healthy discus.i believe if you don't have time to change the water regularly,then discus are not the fish for you.