Commercial Breeders

[Lido]

I have always wondered why there are no commercial breeders of ultra high quality discus in the US. I know they are mostly in Malaysia, Vietnam, China and a few other countries like Germany. I was just wondering why the US doesn't have a commercial breeding operation. I mean with the cost of the fish I would have to assume that the business is viable. I know we commercially farm corals and certain types of fish.

I am not talking about your average home breeder, I mean commercial large scale.

I thought I would open a round table discussion on this.

[rickztahone]

I have always wondered why there are no commercial breeders of ultra high quality discus in the US. I know they are mostly in Malaysia, Vietnam, China and a few other countries like Germany. I was just wondering why the US doesn't have a commercial breeding operation. I mean with the cost of the fish I would have to assume that the business is viable. I know we commercially farm corals and certain types of fish.

I am not talking about your average home breeder, I mean commercial large scale.

I thought I would open a round table discussion on this.

The bottom line is that a breeding facility here in the US on the scale of a Malaysian one would not be cost effective. The truth of the matter is that it is much easier and cheaper for people outside of the US to have a farm than it is for us. I know of many oversees breeders that can get water from their tap and it is perfect for breeding discus! That is a luxury we do not have here for sure.

I will mention an exception, and that is Eric, one of our sponsors. He is known for breeding discus and had quite a large operation going on, but unfortunately, he had a disaster strike in his fish room and is in the process of rebuilding.

[Leland F.]

Temperature regulation, cost of electricity, cost of employees and food, water, and sewer are all major problems. Rainwater collection tanks and ponds help provide water in asian countries, as well as filtered tap water. Most have no filtration, and simply change the water twice a day. The climate keeps the fish warm, with some requiring heaters or A/C during certain times of the year, but minimally. Employees don't have to have a large hourly pay, or benefits, and the cost of electricity is much lower. Live foods are much more available at very cheap prices as well. Tough to compete with that.

-Leland

[Lido]

Sure I can understand the costs are cheaper in other countries. I mean that is the standard argument for globalization in general. I am not saying "it isn't more profitable" to do it outside of the US. I suppose the challenges are so great that nobody wants to take the risk associated with it. I can totally understand. It seems that is why things have stayed small scale, strictly home breeders and hobbyists.

[LoGeek]

Stendker in Germany is proof that you can financially sustain a breeding facility long term in a country much like the US. I highly doubt that electricity and water prices are higher in the US than in Germany.

But I know nothing about their history. Maybe they made a name for themselves before large imports from Asia began?

There are some other breeding facilities in Europe as well in countries as expensive as the US, but I know of noone as large as Stendker.

[Lido]

Lo

This is basically what I am getting at. I am not trying to say that cheap labor, free water etc isn't a more economical model. I am just trying to get at that I would assume it is economically plausible. If it was totally unreasonable there wouldn't be people commercially farming corals or other higher dollar livestock. Maybe with the sensitivity of discus the risks outweigh the potential rewards. Or maybe the domestication of discus and viability is so new that nobody has made the leap?

Basically every LFS I have talked with would prefer to get the discus from a local source. There would be peace of mind knowing it is adjusted to local tap and water conditions.

[warblad79]

Sure I can understand the costs are cheaper in other countries. I mean that is the standard argument for globalization in general. I am not saying "it isn't more profitable" to do it outside of the US. I suppose the challenges are so great that nobody wants to take the risk associated with it. I can totally understand. It seems that is why things have stayed small scale, strictly home breeders and hobbyists.

Trust me it's not cheap and I've been breeding for a while now. The profit is zero, the money I make from breeding only cover all the expenses and effort I put to it. It's only the fun of it that's why I still continue

[Lido]

Trust me it's not cheap and I've been breeding for a while now. The profit is zero, the money I make from breeding only cover all the expenses and effort I put to it. It's only the fun of it that's why I still continue


I totally get that as a hobbyist it isn't a money making operation. I have bred plenty of fish. But the more breeding stick you have, the moe those small "profits for your time" turn into larger profits. It takes no longer to feed 10 tanks with 10 fish or 10 tanks with 100 fish or 1000 fish. I have no doubt in my mind that it is extremely difficult, time consuming etc. I guess I am just trying to figure out at what point it could become viable enough to do it as a full time home based business.

I have been building reef systems for some time now as a side business and it makes some money, but I really want to take my hobby to the next level.

how many breeding pair would it take to make 60k a year as I would be willing to take a pay cut to work from home. I obviously would have to diversify and not do only discus.

I have a really good friend who has turned fragging corals and breeding fancy clownfish into a very lucrative business. I am trying to see if breeding Cichlids could do the same for me.

I don't want to import/export fish. I just want to create a business I can run from home and spend more time with with my family.

[Lido]

I think I just saw this "Eric" you speak of. This is exactly what I am talking about. I knew it was possible.

[bluelagoon]

I googled USA discus farm and came up with this.Not sure of the quality.http://www.discushatchery.com/

[warblad79]

I think I just saw this "Eric" you speak of. This is exactly what I am talking about. I knew it was possible.

It's possible but can't do that here in California due to drought and because you need endless supply of water if you're breeding and raising discus. Also everything here in California are expensive, so you might have to move somewhere else cheaper with endless supply of water. That's probably the reason why we don't have farm here. also you will have lots of competition since we have so many importer now from every well known breeder.

[pitdogg2]

Stendker in Germany is proof that you can financially sustain a breeding facility long term in a country much like the US. I highly doubt that electricity and water prices are higher in the US than in Germany.


There is much more Solar panel use in Europe especially in Germany from my understanding. Something there is not much of in the U.S. Some areas are very high in cost for electricity I've seen as high as .20 a kilowatt then you have all the taxes and environmental fees on top also. From my prospective I tried some indoor gardening in the winter the lighting alone pushed my bill up 200.00 a month. So on a commercial scale it may be 10x as much in electricity plus food and water. It adds up quick. Tropical breeders do not need heaters or lighting as much because of the tropics and it rains much more so water also could be free.

[Lido]

It's possible but can't do that here in California due to drought and because you need endless supply of water if you're breeding and raising discus. Also everything here in California are expensive, so you might have to move somewhere else cheaper with endless supply of water. That's probably the reason why we don't have farm here. also you will have lots of competition since we have so many importer now from every well known breeder.

Yeah, water would be the big issue. Lights are cheap with LEDs. Heating the water wouldn't be a big deal i would use Gas and heat the whole room. Only use inline heaters for maintaining internal temps. I guess in CA it's better to just grow something else that is not fish.. lol JK.

I guess i'll put the reigns on and just keep trucking on breeding the fish i like for myself and my friends.

[warblad79]

Yeah, water would be the big issue. Lights are cheap with LEDs. Heating the water wouldn't be a big deal i would use Gas and heat the whole room. Only use inline heaters for maintaining internal temps. I guess in CA it's better to just grow something else that is not fish.. lol JK.

I guess i'll put the reigns on and just keep trucking on breeding the fish i like for myself and my friends.

You can probably get a way with little water change like those German breeder do but you have to build a sophisticated system to achieve that. In Asia they do lots of water change because they'll don't have that kind of system so they just take advantage of the rain and well water.

[mbruizer187]

If you were to live over an aquifer, or near an Artesian well then your water price would be of no concern, so then your concerns would be ways to cut down on all your other costs, heating, lighting, feeding. I just don't know if you would need to treat or monitor your water, which I assume you would probably want to. So start looking for known places of those, and move lol! J/K, (not really but).

[rickztahone]

Yeah, water would be the big issue. Lights are cheap with LEDs. Heating the water wouldn't be a big deal i would use Gas and heat the whole room. Only use inline heaters for maintaining internal temps. I guess in CA it's better to just grow something else that is not fish.. lol JK.

I guess i'll put the reigns on and just keep trucking on breeding the fish i like for myself and my friends.

This thread isn't a means of discouragement, simply showing you that this idea is not a new one. Many members have tried to make the transition from hobbyist breeder to grand scale breeder and it generally isn't as lucrative as you may imagine it to be. The issue has already been touched upon, but your main problem is importers that can bring in a huge variety of discus at a price that can undercut almost anyone in the US. Once you factor in your utilities for keeping these discus alive till selling age, you've already amassed a huge amount of debt on each discus that selling isn't really going to clear you as much as you might think from that pending debt.

The only advice I can give you is to find some form of niche, it can be anything from developing red strained discus, to any other color and focusing on these and making them your specialty. Anything that can give you the edge.

[Lido]

I have considered trying to work with some cross genetics, maybe i should just shoot for the holy grail.. breed wild Heckels!

I have been thinking of working with some of the F1's i have to "design" my own strain. Maybe i'll look a little deeper into that. It's not a bad idea. I've always been a fan of RSG crosses.

[warblad79]

I have considered trying to work with some cross genetics, maybe i should just shoot for the holy grail.. breed wild Heckels!

I have been thinking of working with some of the F1's i have to "design" my own strain. Maybe i'll look a little deeper into that. It's not a bad idea. I've always been a fan of RSG crosses.

Anything you create now is nothing new even for wild Heckels. Designing your own strain will take years to achieve it and all we can do is keep trying. But don't get discourage breeding discus is fun.

[Ryan]

Even Eric has a day job. To be successful you'd have to have a large enough operation to have customers all over the world, exporting to various countries. Discus are such a specialized fish that you'd never survive only selling domestically, IMO. You may not think feeding 10 fish versus 1000 fish is any different, but you'd be wrong about that. I run just 15 tanks and import about ~150 fish at a time and between water changes, tank wipe-downs, feedings, answering questions for customers, taking pictures and video, packaging and shipping fish, etc. it is enough to be a full-time job. Now imagine that multiplied by 10 or more.

Aside from having the right climate and water, there is also a passion for breeding and playing with genetics among the Asian breeders. That's not to say that it hasn't happened here. Jack Wattley is a great example of someone who was very successful at it. The tropical fish hobby has always been somewhat more of a lifestyle in Asia. It's not the same here in the States. The years you'd need to tweak your own strains and build it into a global business would be a lot of energy and dedication.

[Lido]

I totally agree with you for the most part Ryan. And I was saying feeding 10 tanks is no different. The amount of fish in the tank is subjective. Just because I am not Asian does not mean I do not have a passion for fish. I have a day job as well. I am just trying to see if anyone on here had any insight to the industry and/or potential problems they foresee. I didn't need a speech on why I am not passionate enough towards fish or why I am not motivated as much as an Asian breeder. But hey thanks for the advice anyhow. We can learn something from everyone.

[Lido]

Anything you create now is nothing new even for wild Heckels. Designing your own strain will take years to achieve it and all we can do is keep trying. But don't get discourage breeding discus is fun.

The "design" was there because I realize there is more to it than taking two discus and making them dance. There are generations of cross breeding, back breeding and isolating genitics. I have a degree in fisheries biology, I'm not a slouch.

[Leland F.]

I was under the impression Stendker had taken over Bern Degen's or Schmitt-Fock's hatchery in the past. Don't know if that's true or not.

-Leland

[CliffsDiscus]

I googled USA discus farm and came up with this.Not sure of the quality.http://www.discushatchery.com/

I visited Peter's Discus back in the 90's and noticed that there were many 2 inch size and very few smaller Discus. Does this mean that he was importing back then already?

Cliff

[CliffsDiscus]

I was under the impression Stendker had taken over Bern Degen's or Schmitt-Fock's hatchery in the past. Don't know if that's true or not.

-Leland

Degan was a writer and Discus broker. Schmitt-Fock's fish were sold by Aquarium Rio in Germany.

Cliff

[Woodduck]

It is said, "The only way to become a millionaire breeding Discus is to start off as a billionaire".

[Lido]

It is said, "The only way to become a millionaire breeding Discus is to start off as a billionaire".

Lol perfect!

[John_Nicholson]

The reason you can't understand it is you know nothing of the fish business. LFS want the cheapest fish possible regardless of what they tell you. The cost of running a large scale operation here is just worth the effort. You could make way more money elsewhere. Why would any reasonable person tie up lots of capital in a high risk low return industry? There is an old saying that is still true it goes like this.......How do you make a small fortune in the fish business? Start with a large fortune......I have been breeding discus for 20+ years. There were times I produced and sold as many as 6000 in a year. My water cost and heating cost are both low here in Texas. I promise you that you cannot make a living from it. In fact on the money side I did much better on angels than I did on discus.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

Oh and no one and I repeat no one is making a living breeding discus in this country. The ones that claim too are importing discus and selling them as their own.

-john

[Hart24601]

This is an interesting thread as I have wondered the exact same thing about lack of large commercial breeding in the USA when it is possible in Germany and one would expect the expenses to not be drastically different but John's comments are really interesting selling 6k fish a year. Sounds like they (Stendker) have built up such a large market worldwide they can sustain producing (and selling) gigantic numbers of fish to make a profit. For a new breeder it sounds like the market isn't there with Germans and Asians already in the market place. That will not allow the scale up and market recognition of the beginning breeder to sell tens of thousands of fish which is apparently required to sustain a discus breeding operation when as John said it's such a high risk low reward industry - seems it would hard to get capital for that investment.

[LoGeek]

There is much more Solar panel use in Europe especially in Germany from my understanding. Something there is not much of in the U.S. Some areas are very high in cost for electricity I've seen as high as .20 a kilowatt then you have all the taxes and environmental fees on top also. From my prospective I tried some indoor gardening in the winter the lighting alone pushed my bill up 200.00 a month. So on a commercial scale it may be 10x as much in electricity plus food and water. It adds up quick. Tropical breeders do not need heaters or lighting as much because of the tropics and it rains much more so water also could be free.

Trust me, it is not cheaper running a facility in Germany!

BUT, of course there's the fact that we are very driven and efficient when it comes to business in Europe :)

No, I really do agree with those being sceptical. It's probably a very high initial investment with uncertain return. Just wanted to point out that for whatever reason Stendker has managed to build a successful business around their discus.

[Lido]

Thanks for the info John. I appreciate it. I know a little about the fish business, admittedly I'm still learning everyday.

I think this whole thing got a little too personal. I didn't intend to offend anyone or give some sort of indication that I was going to become a multi-billionaire by breeding and selling fish. I really appreciate everyone's input and honesty. Especially the people who do this as more than a hobby.

I suppose if I could just find a way to help pay for some of the costs along the way I'd be plenty happy with that. I'll continue building reef systems, selling a fish or two here and there and enjoying my passion for fish. At no point did I want to upset anyone, ruffle any feathers, step on any toes or give any sort of indication that I was going to take over the world via fish!

I admire the people in this industry who are breeding fish, importing fish, keeping fish...etc. It is really an awesome thing to be passionate about. I am excited about the future of fish keeping to see what is to come and am thankful for the current people like John, who make it possible to keep these beauties.

[LoGeek]

Maybe you can start out by importing fish and let your breeding business run parallell in smaller scale while you get going?

Here in Sweden we have some of the highest costs and taxes in the world and the aquarium hobby is not very big. Yet I know of one pure discus facility (combined import and breeding) and one with discus along with several other fish. As far as I know this is their full time work. But obviously you would have to be driven by interest rather than by expecting huge profit.

[rickztahone]

Thanks for the info John. I appreciate it. I know a little about the fish business, admittedly I'm still learning everyday.

I think this whole thing got a little too personal. I didn't intend to offend anyone or give some sort of indication that I was going to become a multi-billionaire by breeding and selling fish. I really appreciate everyone's input and honesty. Especially the people who do this as more than a hobby.

I suppose if I could just find a way to help pay for some of the costs along the way I'd be plenty happy with that. I'll continue building reef systems, selling a fish or two here and there and enjoying my passion for fish. At no point did I want to upset anyone, ruffle any feathers, step on any toes or give any sort of indication that I was going to take over the world via fish!

I admire the people in this industry who are breeding fish, importing fish, keeping fish...etc. It is really an awesome thing to be passionate about. I am excited about the future of fish keeping to see what is to come and am thankful for the current people like John, who make it possible to keep these beauties.

I do not believe anyone took your attitude to mean you wanted to become a millionaire breeding discus. People just see a new member thinking that this may be easy money, and the ones chiming in may have learnt the hard way that the money ain't easy with discus lol.

[Fishquake]

I do not believe anyone took your attitude to mean you wanted to become a millionaire breeding discus. People just see a new member thinking that this may be easy money, and the ones chiming in may have learnt the hard way that the money ain't easy with discus lol.

Money's not easy with anything!

[Lido]

I do not believe anyone took your attitude to mean you wanted to become a millionaire breeding discus. People just see a new member thinking that this may be easy money, and the ones chiming in may have learnt the hard way that the money ain't easy with discus lol.

Rick, i've been on this site since 2013. I'm not that new. The question originally posted was more or less just a conversation starter. I don't have the capitol, nor the experience to become the king of discus overnight. I know that comes at a great disappointment to you all. LOL!

Thank you all for the good talk. I hope I didn't give anyone the idea that i thought i was taking over the world.

[CliffsDiscus]

My cost for brineshrimp egg run for 8 case one year
run about 5k. Cost of food free from fish food vendors, I receive auto check deposites monthly from the electric and gas company. Monthly
production average slightly under 1000 fry.
Distribution mostly with brokers and wholesaler
some time sales with LfS but their purchases
are low and long between each purchase.

Cliff

[Lido]

Thanks.

I'm sure you've considered this but why don't you culture your own brine shrimp?

[CliffsDiscus]

Thanks.

I'm sure you've considered this but why don't you culture your own brine shrimp?

I still have a day job, so there is not much time
left in the day except for eating and a little sleep.

Cliff

[John_Nicholson]

You cannot produce enough of them to be useful. It takes a lot of BBS to raise discus fry.

-john


Thanks.

I'm sure you've considered this but why don't you culture your own brine shrimp?

[DISCUS STU]

I knew a guy that was trying to do this in Paterson, NJ but this was before the internet. As stated previously, the cost of the doing this on a big scale is cost prohibitive even I think there are still commercial fish farms in the U.S. I assume the higher cost for heat is probably a deciding factor.

[Leland F.]

You could drastically reduce heating costs with proper insulation, and radiant heat floors, heated by a high efficiency, hot water boiler.

-Leland

[Willie]

Cliff has been in the business of breeding and selling discus for three decades. If there's any corners to be cut on savings, he's done it all. He's selling ~1,000 fry a month and still has a day job.

Willie

[BmoreBraap]

Sticking to the original question about if there are any large scale breeders in the US....Bluelagoon pointed this out but not sure anyone caught it. These guys http://www.discushatchery.com/ are the only folks I've seen that claim to be 100% in-house raised Discus. With that said, their facility is literally 10 minutes from my house and over the last 3 months reaching out 5-6 times I have never once gotten a response back from them. So not sure if their customer service is non-existent or they are not taking any new customers, but I would love to just check out their facility sometime.

[Ryan]

^ I don't know that they're selling home bred fish anymore. I thought they were like Wattley's and importing.

[John_Nicholson]

Sticking to the original question about if there are any large scale breeders in the US....Bluelagoon pointed this out but not sure anyone caught it. These guys http://www.discushatchery.com/ are the only folks I've seen that claim to be 100% in-house raised Discus. With that said, their facility is literally 10 minutes from my house and over the last 3 months reaching out 5-6 times I have never once gotten a response back from them. So not sure if their customer service is non-existent or they are not taking any new customers, but I would love to just check out their facility sometime.

Don't confuse people that breed a little and import a lot as a large commercial breeding operation.

-john

[bluelagoon]

I knew a guy that was trying to do this in Paterson, NJ but this was before the internet. As stated previously, the cost of the doing this on a big scale is cost prohibitive even I think there are still commercial fish farms in the U.S. I assume the higher cost for heat is probably a deciding factor.

For the most part I believe they use out door ponds.

[pastry]

Had to laugh a little at what the thread reminded me of. In 8th grade when someone asked what I wanted to do when I got older, I said, "Discus breeding". Yeeeaaah... nope. Still love the hell out of them but other countries can produce more for cheaper. I still think a profit could be achieved with future innovation regarding WC, baby Discus foods that readily negate bbs, etc...(plus higher demand... and not enough demand right now). Just not now.

[andy77]

Hello to all,

My first post.

I sure enjoyed the thread. Lido, there have been many excellent posts by wise people that would love for you to succeed. I think that if you have the fire and passion to start and continue this thread through 4 pages, that there is something here for you. It may not end up exactly as you first thought, but one way or the other you will benefit.

I have been pursuing my passion of running a small organic farm for 20 years and though I am not rich, it is all paid for. I do not try to compete with the big farms, find your niche as a previous post stated. Do what you love. Use your talents. Think outside the box

Also from a previous post was the mention of wild strains. There is a very interesting thread by Alex in Germany on how was developing his own strain of red-spotted greens which will remain true to the wild type. I wonder why no-one is doing that here. Maybe TRUE ;) wild types will become more popular and you can charge a premium to counter the higher costs here? Personally, I will be getting some wilds in the Fall but just for fun.

One last point, you are probably going to have to keep your day job (I also work as a carpenter) and I have had several very successful men tell me that its best to have more than one thing going on. In my experience, maybe 1 out of 3 of my ideas paid off. But some did and I own my farm (lock, stock and aquariums) ;-)

Best of Luck to You. Please, let us know of your success.

andy

[Clawhammer]

I would find the demand side of the equation too discouraging to embark on such a project. It seems like you would need to develop a global market as a pre-req to breaking even. Also, you would surely have to sell to companies that you know will not properly care for the fish.

It would be amazing to make a living working with discus, but you are probably more likely to make a living in the sport of throwing discus..

[brewmaster15]

One of the easiest ways for a person to kill their passion for a hobby is to try and turn it into a legit money making business! Some can do that... but I have seen many many many more that have not succeeded with discus. And honestly even among those that "succeed".. Staying afloat and making money are not the same thing.


I'd much rather stay a hobby breeder !:)

al

[Willie]

Back when I had 4 pairs going, I went to several local shows in the Midwest to peddle the young. Like Brew said, it's not nearly as enjoyable going to a show when you're keeping track of how many fish you need to sell to break even.

Like everything else in business, it's not how much you can produce, it's how much you can sell.

Willie

[stevenkoh]

Hi Lido
I think the advice given by all these experienced home breeders are great and well meaning. But for a person with passion and fire to start a business out of breeding discus, all these talk are sometime meaningless. Afterall how many great successful guy start by listening to people. Question is are you this great successful guy? Test it out. Start by say 20 tanks. Breed the best discus you can and start selling it. The cost and pain will be small. If you have started to make an impact, then go to 30 tanks or 50 tanks. Attend competition. Talk to international breeders and commercial sellers and importer and even your local LFS. Learn the tricks of the trade. Work your way up. This way your mistakes(which will be many) can be managed. You know you are ready when you start winning competition. Then you have a basis for charging a higher premium for your fish.
Having said this, there are many many out there that start this way and stop at 10 tanks. There are many reasons. Their breeding turn out substandard fish or the fishes just don't breed or disease keep on hitting them. Or they just do not have the time. They just dare not let go their full time job. So bottom line is it is great to have a dream. Indulge in it as much as you can afford. But watch your step one at a time.
At this stage you may be laughing nonstop. Why so serious? you may ask. I only ask a question on why are there no commercial breeder in the States? LOL

[Carolina discus]

Hi Lido and Gang....
Hope everyone is well...since I was mentioned in several posts I thought it would be appropriate to give some thoughts. I can only speak on our personal experiences and always keep in mind there is no one exact 'expert way" to keep discus....yes there are the very basics but you have to find out what works for you and build on it. Alot of experienced people had given some input with some very valid points that should be considered.

Here are a few thoughts?
There are no large scale commercial discus breeding farms in the US because you simply cannot compete with the advantages the farms is Asia have. That is not a slight in any way....I believe Asian breeders have had huge contributions to the discus world and their contributions cannot be understated. The facts are the facts...they have much lower labor rates, little electrical costs, little/no heating bills, plus they have the right water parameters usually to breed with no issues. Yes they have expenses and what they do is pretty amazing in my eyes....my point is the costs of running an operation per sq foot is just not comparable. One of the biggest advantages is the availability of great water in massive amounts....in order to be successful on a commercial scale the amount of water needed is unbelievable.
I am sure the great German breeders like Stendker and to a lesser extend Alex have higher costs as well...much closer to the US than Asia. But their success to me is the exception rather than the rule. What Stendker does on such a high quality scale must really be amazing to see....I spent hours over the years watching Asian Farms and would love to see how things look in Stendker's hatchery. They must be masters at water mastery!
There are soooo many issues that haven't even been talked about regarding costs...freight is a killer in the US...it is the number one reason we lose orders from possible customers.
Anyone can disagree but look at the hard facts.....there have been numerous companies over the years that started off trying to breed and they end up importing...why? because you make way more money importing than you do breeding...period.
Here are a few brief points as well:
1. consistency is our number 1 hurdle and I have to believe it a major issue for many if not all.....anyone can get a spawn from 2 healthy fish once...that's not magic...its called mother nature...but getting that same pair to spawn successfully 20 times in a row with no mishaps, that is pure skill. I believe that in order to have a commercial farm you would need hundreds of pairs...you have to have consistency over and over in every "hot" strain.
2. Too many people do the "discus math" forecast....hell lets be honest we all did! LOL If I have 1 pair of discus and they have 400 fry every 4 weeks and I can sell them for $30 each we will make XXX...if I multiply that by 10 pairs we would make XXX, we can make alot of money!...is doesn't work that way... way too many variables and quality must be the number 1 factor...there will be times when you only get 20 pieces from a spawn of 50 that are grade A and the rest get tossed. Other times pairs eat their spawns or fry, they could start fighting all the sudden. You can have issues getting the water right consistently. and on and on and on...oh yeah, then they go off cycle and you just have to wait.

A few very quick points:
- no one in the US is breeding on a commercial scale..if they tell you they are John is right...they are lying to you.
- LFS will not give you what you need to make on a discus. We get asked all the time to sell wholesale and it never works out for us. Example, a LFS near us contacted us to buy our
fish and they said they were paying $15 for a 3.5" discus from malaysia and they were tied of getting b grade fish and the shipping costs and losses and wanted to find a reliable
source...we told them we could not meet that price and gave detailed info into the reasons why and they were pissed at us. Even when we showed them what their actual costs were
per fish after their losses and freight and we would be saving them $10 a fish they were offended....the kicker is I went to see the store a few months later and they were selling the
same fish they bought for $15 for $99!!!!!!

We are flattered we have been mentioned in this thread...we certainly are not a commercial breeder and this is definitely not our only job. We consider ourselves an "advanced hobbyist with a small hatchery" ...we don't do this for the money, most time there isn't any left at the end of the month. no BS...its the fact. We do this as a family business and some times we cover costs and sometimes we dont...and dont think you are going to have more time to spend with your family...it is truly a full time job. We breed about 85%-90% of what we sell...we buy select groups from our supplier on strains we don't breed but our customers want...we also bring in fish for breeding stock and release extra pieces we wont use as well as extra adults.
We breed about 20 pairs and sell probably 60% mail order and the rest pick ups...as mentioned we had a malfunction on a vale about 12 months ago and we lost everything...over $40k in stock and the 3 years it took to get us to that point. Think about that....to get back to square one it has taken us over a year and we still had the $1500 in expenses it takes to run the hatchery each month. Plus think about the amount of money it takes to get the amount and quality of stock needed to breed.

I am running on the road so I am probably jumping around a bit...wanted to make a few points. I recommend to anyone to keep and breed discus as it really is an amazing experience...just do it for the love of the fish.

We are almost back ....please consider supporting a true US discus breeder....we have some amazing fish we will be breeding we have kept on the DL that are going to surprise a lot of people!

[EAGLE 1 ARMY]

Hi.. I live in Indonesia, South East Asia near Malaysia. most of the commercial discus breeders live in West Java region, mostly bekasi and jakarta. and they have good water parameter on their well water.
Just do basic.

+ bare bottom tanks
+ no need to paint the background, some breeders just put used styrofoam or white paper between tanks. (some of the breeders paint the background)
+ Free Well Water (TDS = around 60-80), and very cheap Tap water (around 2-5 cents per m3) - Aged + Aeration + filter
+ Cheap Electric Bill
+ no need for heater (around 28-32 C). (heater just for sick fish)
+ Cheap worker, just pay for 150-200 US dollars a month.
+ Cheap tax
+ Just sponge filter
+ Do 90-100% water change once a day or twice a day
+ Cheap food (Mostly Frozen Blood worm and Beefheart)

Good quality discus, low cost :thumbsup:

Adult discus 5 inch up = around 50-100 US dollars
younger discus = around 5-40 US dollars
Discus proven pair = around 100-300 US dollars

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi.. I live in Indonesia, South East Asia near Malaysia. most of the commercial discus breeders live in West Java region, mostly bekasi and jakarta. and they have good water parameter on their well water.
Just do basic.

+ bare bottom tanks
+ no need to paint the background, some breeders just put used styrofoam or white paper between tanks. (some of the breeders paint the background)
+ Free Well Water (TDS = around 60-80), and very cheap Tap water (around 2-5 cents per m3) - Aged + Aeration + filter
+ Cheap Electric Bill
+ no need for heater (around 28-32 C). (heater just for sick fish)
+ Cheap worker, just pay for 150-200 US dollars a month.
+ Cheap tax
+ Just sponge filter
+ Do 90-100% water change once a day or twice a day
+ Cheap food (Mostly Frozen Blood worm and Beefheart)

Good quality discus, low cost :thumbsup:

Adult discus 5 inch up = around 50-100 US dollars
younger discus = around 5-40 US dollars
Discus proven pair = around 100-300 US dollars

I was just there from Singapore(CrazyRichAsian Tour) Discus were dirt cheap same as Thailand.

Now for the wholesale San Francisco Bay Area price
run around 5 dollars for 2 inches without the tail landed.
Usually the wholesaler wants to buy 150 pieces of
one strain. There not to much

profit to be make because there is still federal and state tax to be paid.

Cliff

[gators111]

Here is a good article on the subject as well: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16600.pdf

[brewmaster15]

Here is a good article on the subject as well: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16600.pdf

That was a good read.. It looks like it was created last year. while reading I could see abunch of references to other research and papers I have read. I did note a probable type-o or misunderstanding on the part of the authors.


Raising the temperature and slightly lowering the pH of the water have been known to serve as environmental triggers to spawning. Generally we lower the water temp to induce spawning , not raise it.:)

al

[Willie]

The conclusion of this report that "discus is a good candidate for aquaculture" is remarkable given the complete absence of any market analysis.

Willie

[brewmaster15]

The conclusion of this report that "discus is a good candidate for aquaculture" is remarkable given the complete absence of any market analysis.

Willie

A prime example of publish or perish? :)

[LizStreithorst]

lol

[gators111]

I know some of the big farms near me do breed discus. But they only have 3 or 4 strains, usually turqs, pidgeonbloods, and cobalts. And they only do enough to sell to a half dozen or so to big box stores or some LFS's. They have a couple of breeding pairs and do it on the side for when their customers want some on special order. Nothing on the scale of Asia or anything. They have to keep them indoors due to the risk of freezes. Unlike the hundreds of ponds they have stocked full of african cichlids. I've talked to one of the owners, and he said he'd like to do more, but they just don't sell in the numbers that make it profitable for him to set up an entirely separate operation.

[brewmaster15]

I actually don't want to see commercial farms breeding Discus in the USA. Its hard enough for hobbyist to sell their homebred fish and for importers to source quality imports.I think if discus were commercially bred domestically on a large scale it would potentially destroy our hobby here.

Thankfully I don't know if it could happen. I can't see commercial breeders being able to move their discus through petcos and petsmarts. Even if they could breed them in numbers... the stores would kill them,lose money and not buy them.

al

[pitdogg2]

I actually don't want to see commercial farms breeding Discus in the USA. Its hard enough for hobbyist to sell their homebred fish and for importers to source quality imports.I think if discus were commercially bred domestically on a large scale it would potentially destroy our hobby here.

Thankfully I don't know if it could happen. I can't see commercial breeders being able to move their discus through petcos and petsmarts. Even if they could breed them in numbers... the stores would kill them,lose money and not buy them.

al



Agree 100%

[Fishquake]

Discus Chill has developed a business model that depends on nitrate reduction, hyper filtration, a great deal of nitrifying bacteria, low pH, low TDS and plenty of Tito's vodka. We manage 40 pairs but are putting a great deal of emphasis on developing crosses that offer a unique looking Discus. Additionally, we artificially rear the fry on a grand scale and tend to move them out at 2.5' to 3", sometimes 4". It's get em in get em out, make em beautiful. So far so good. Initial expenditures were significant, but through inventive automation it takes my wife Kathy to manage the whole operation while I toil away doing my video thing. Oh, and we don't retail, we wholesale, so our shipping costs and labor are nil.

[brewmaster15]

Bill, Im glad Kathy and you are having good success so far with your breeding endeavors. How many gallons of water is your hatchery?

Al

[Fishquake]

Bill, Im glad Kathy and you are having good success so far with your breeding endeavors. How many gallons of water is your hatchery?

Al
Al, we have a capacity of approximately 4000 gallons.

[brewmaster15]

Ahh... I remember those days! I do miss having many strains and all that went with it, but I do not miss my water and electric bill! lol. :) Running 1500 gals here is my max now and when I can I shut down tanks. I definitely enjoyed having more but I find I enjoy having less even more!


Best wishes to your's and Kathy's continued success!

[Fishquake]

Our best decision was to heat the room!