Spawning in tap water

[Albanets]

My discus pairs like to spawn in tap water. I was planning to replace 75% tap with RO - it seems to get best hatch - but both pairs beat me to it and spawned in tap water again tonight.
Now, when they spawn in tap water, I never get wigglers, all eggs turn white.
Is it too late to replace some of the tap water with RO ?

[Keith Perkins]

It's worth a try. Most would tell you it's too late, but there is at least one pretty successful breeder around here that bucks that trend.

[rickmiles]

I have done it many times. Say for example in your community tank your Discus spawn and the eggs never hatch (or get eaten), never hatch because the water is to hard.

You ask yourself, do I have a breeding pair? male and female? should I put them in there own tank now?

What I do is take the eggs out and put them in a container with ro or distilled water with a few drops of mb and an air stone etc etc the eggs will hatch or most will and then you will know if it's a proven pair.

The last time I did this, last week. I closed my Discus room about 5:PM, the next morning when I opened the Discus section about 10:AM, I noticed a pair laid eggs in the community tank. I did what I said above and they hatched and then I put the pair in there own tank with ro water. I have even done what you asked about, when they lay eggs in the hard tap water, I just do a water change of about 70% ro, TDS about 25 to 75tds and the eggs hatch.

I know what all the books say and most discus people on this forum say about this subject. I have been breeding Discus since the 70"s and I ignore all the nay sayers and do what I have to do because I know it works.

Rick Mileski Sr.

[Albanets]

Thank you for detailed answer! I will do it, worth the try.
Interestingly though, if I get them to hatch, it would mean that it's not fertilization of eggs affected by tap water, it's eggs membrane .

[Willie]

Its too late to change to R/O after they spawn. If you do a water change with R/O when they start to clean the spawning surface, then the spawn will be fine. The egg membrane seals itself when Ca ions are high, since it's similar to the physiological change after fertilization.

Good luck, Willie

[Keith Perkins]

Thank you for detailed answer! I will do it, worth the try.
Interestingly though, if I get them to hatch, it would mean that it's not fertilization of eggs affected by tap water, it's eggs membrane .

Sounds about right. Let us know what happens, I'm curious.

[bluelagoon]

Its too late to change to R/O after they spawn. If you do a water change with R/O when they start to clean the spawning surface, then the spawn will be fine. The egg membrane seals itself when Ca ions are high, since it's similar to the physiological change after fertilization.

Good luck, Willie

This is my understanding of the process also.

[rickmiles]

Its too late to change to R/O after they spawn. If you do a water change with R/O when they start to clean the spawning surface, then the spawn will be fine. The egg membrane seals itself when Ca ions are high, since it's similar to the physiological change after fertilization.
Good luck, Willie
You must of read the books, turn the books upside down and open your closed mind and try it. You just might learn something new.


bluelagoon wrote
This is my understanding of the process also.

Well its like I said in my post about all the nay sayers " I know what all the books say and most discus people on this forum say about this subject." Read my post again because you don't get it.

I'd be happy to discuss this on the phone in detail call me at 925-978-0880 I'm there 11:AM to 5:PM or you can email me at rick@fintastikantioch.com
(rick@fintastikantioch.com)
Or you can come on down and I'll show you how I do it and other Discus stuff you may not know about, coffee is free, but bring your own surger.

Rick Mileski Sr.

[Albanets]

I think that our water composition depends on location, maybe in some areas tap water Ca2+ is above threshold for successful fertilization, while in others its below. Unless we measure Ca concentration directly, we wouldn't know.
Hans sells confirmed pairs that got to wigglers in his tap water. I heard him say you can IMPROVE hatching rates by RO.
Tap water definitely affects hatch rates, since in MY tap water all eggs turn white in 48 hrs, while in 75% RO + MB they hatch.

I suspect another possibility - eggs may be fertilised in tap water, but oxygen and waste transport may be affected , thus choking embrios later.
So. My confirmed pair of BDs spawned in tap water last night. Previous two spawns in tap water resulted in all white eggs.
I have replaced 75% of tap water with RO water 12 hrs later (this morning). I have added methylene blue to prevent fungus, and added second air stone right next to the eggs to increase oxygen and water flow. Just like angelfish breeders do when they artificially hatch eggs.
IF eggs hatch, this would mean that failure to hatch in my tap water was due to membrane changes that affected embrios by reducing oxygen/waste transport, but eggs were fertilized nonetheless.

[Albanets]

106878
106879

[rickmiles]

Albanese

It looks good, let us know if some hatch.

My Discus eggs will not hatch in my tap water I wish they did, it's to hard, I have to use R.O. water.

I also breed Discus artificially when I need too, its a pain in the you know what. I started off as a Angelfish breeder and sold fry to the lfs's.

I started breeding Discus when I read a article written by my friend Jack about artificially breeding Discus. I eventually was able to buy 4 wild Heckels and I was able to breed them after a good many months using trial and error. In those days there were no such thing as the Internet or the web.

Rick Miles Sr

[bluelagoon]

It would depend on the tap water.I've seen discus hatched and raised in moderately hard water with a PH of about 8.

[planter]

I have done it many times. Say for example in your community tank your Discus spawn and the eggs never hatch (or get eaten), never hatch because the water is to hard.

You ask yourself, do I have a breeding pair? male and female? should I put them in there own tank now?

What I do is take the eggs out and put them in a container with ro or distilled water with a few drops of mb and an air stone etc etc the eggs will hatch or most will and then you will know if it's a proven pair.

The last time I did this, last week. I closed my Discus room about 5:PM, the next morning when I opened the Discus section about 10:AM, I noticed a pair laid eggs in the community tank. I did what I said above and they hatched and then I put the pair in there own tank with ro water. I have even done what you asked about, when they lay eggs in the hard tap water, I just do a water change of about 70% ro, TDS about 25 to 75tds and the eggs hatch.

I know what all the books say and most discus people on this forum say about this subject. I have been breeding Discus since the 70"s and I ignore all the nay sayers and do what I have to do because I know it works.

Rick Mileski Sr.

Very interesting what do you mean you add mb to the RO water what is mb?

[Keith Perkins]

mb = methane blue

[planter]

mb = methane blue

Oh ok thank you.

[100fuegos]

methylene blue

[Albanets]

Update: I have got 5-10 wigglers, the rest got fungi over, many dark eggs, I guess methylene blue concentration was low.

[CliffsDiscus]

Why did you add MB so late (12 hrs), usually add MB
right after spawning. By the time you notice the eggs
turning black all of the MB should be removed and
move to clean clear water, this might be one of the problem. Another thing to look for is weak spawning,
the wrigglers are too weak to even break thru their
own shell. One problem leads to another weak spawn including wrigglers falling off the
cone early.

Cliff

[pavlos]

What concentration of MB do you suggest?

[Discus18]

How hard is moderately hard to you? Most breeder use a tds ppm of 50-80 but my tap is only 135-145ppm tds

[rickmiles]

Update: I have got 5-10 wigglers, the rest got fungi over, many dark eggs, I guess methylene blue concentration was low.

Your Welcome Albanets.

Oh, never mind, you didn't say thank you.

Rick Mileski Sr.

[Albanets]

Thank you Rick! :) better later than never

[rickmiles]

Thank you Rick! better later than never
I was just joking, let me know if there is anything else I can help you
with.

Rick Mileski Sr.

[Mac]

Yep. Eggs in the community tank. Maybe a couple wigglers? Good. Then you know. But even if no wigglers, it's worth switching to an isolation breeder tank with half RO.

Worked for me.

The conventional wisdom is that hard water makes it hard for the spermatozoa to penetrate the ova. That comports with my experience of 20 years.

[rush2808]

I've managed to successfully get my pair raised a fry on tap water on a 29 gal tank for the first time ever.
My PH is around 7.2 - 7.8 Temp 86F and when I used the API GH/KH test I needed more than 10 drops for it to change color so I kinda just gave up on it
What I've tried and failed:
- Using 50% DI water
- Caging the eggs
- Changing water prior to egg laying
- Using MB


On Feb 1st they decided to lay eggs on the water that I haven't changed in 3 days, sides of tank we're slightly algae covered
prior to them laying eggs I then forgot to move my corner filter back to each side on the long side so they were both on the short sides of the tank
and the tubing on the air pumps were apparently loose so its barely making any bubbles...one side of the tank has somewhat of water movement and the other side where the cone was has minimal to no water movement.
All these were due to the hustle and bustle from the Ms. being 8 months pregnant between doing house chores/work/dr appt

2 days after eggs were laid I get to change 50% of their water (so 5 days no WC)
for whatever magical reason after about 40x spawning failure, the eggs gotten to the wriggler stage - free swimmer - attached to mom n dad without issues.

Here's a link to what it looks like (notice there's no filter on the right side of tank) hopefully the link works
https://goo.gl/photos/zDJgiYuEu5qRpSdAA



Now they're the size of quarters and there are about 50 of them and I'm not even sure what to do with them all....my 2 weeks old baby is keeping very busy xD
108169

Hope this helps. It's worth a try

[Discusamazonicos]

I have the same TDS from my tap water around 25-30. Do I still need the r/o or I can go for water change only?

[geo57]

You must of read the books, turn the books upside down and open your closed mind and try it. You just might learn something new.


Well its like I said in my post about all the nay sayers " I know what all the books say and most discus people on this forum say about this subject." Read my post again because you don't get it.

I'd be happy to discuss this on the phone in detail call me at 925-978-0880 I'm there 11:AM to 5:PM or you can email me at rick@fintastikantioch.com
(rick@fintastikantioch.com)
Or you can come on down and I'll show you how I do it and other Discus stuff you may not know about, coffee is free, but bring your own surger.

Rick Mileski Sr.

Coffee and Discus talk, i'll take you up on your offer Rick. lol. Your one heck of a nice fella Rick where are you located?

[geo57]

Your Welcome Albanets.

Oh, never mind, you didn't say thank you.

Rick Mileski Sr.

lol lol

[richard hao]

Same scenario with my pair, eggs turn white next day. What should i test my water for, kh or gh? Ive ordered a tds meter so i can test my water

[rickmiles]

richard hao
richard hao is offline

Same scenario with my pair, eggs turn white next day. What should i test my water for, kh or gh? Ive ordered a tds meter so i can test my water

I only test my breeders water with a tds meter and keep it around 75 for a good hatch rate and at times I've had it a lot lower with no problem. I never ever test my pH no need to. I used to measure my pH when I started in the 70's when I read all those books about raising and breeding discus. Many people still do it like the book says for years and years and it works, the problem is they still think there way is the only way because that's what the books say.

Rick Mileski Sr

[brewmaster15]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?133006-Fry-Feeding-time-in-the-tank

100% tap..well water ...pH 7.6 275 ppm tds. I havent used RO in a long time but my hatch rates are usually very low in my well water maybe 30%. But thats enough for my hobby. This hatch was significantly more.Probably the best I have gotten in my well water . I'm guessing 75% hatch rate.

One thing I know about discus is they are good at muddying the waters when you think you have it all worked out. No Clue why this hatch rate was so good given what I normally get in well water here but just throwing out there to show you whats possible and how variable things can be.

Al