Signs of intelligence?

[Jenene]

Okay... I am starting this thread on behavior since most behavior posts are on breeding activity. What have you seen in your tank that exhibits just pure, simple intelligence. Do you notice some strains exhibit more intelligent behavior?

I will start- My Eruption Leopard from Kenny has always seemed a bit extraordinary but last night I saw him as the peacekeeper. I had 2 fish that were going head to head pretty hard and I observed him purposely inserting himself between the two and separating them. I was amazed. I kept watching for the next half hour and he repeatedly split them up. If one of them tried to come back for one last shot he would chase the offender off. That settled that problem quickly and efficiently. I was thankful for that. :)

I have also noticed if a piece of food slipped under the driftwood, he knows enough to swim around to the other side and get it from there. He is the only one that knows enough to do this. The others just give up and swim away.

I have read posts here about discus that that love to be pet, beg for food and recognize their people over strangers (which mine also do).

Anyone else have examples of their over achievers? Certainly there must be some extraordinary discus out there...Bring them on please... I am fascinated by this. I have had fish since I was a small child and I have never seen such obvious intelligence.

[Ryan925]

I wonder if you can train your discus to do tank wipe downs? :)

My rafflesia does the same. No other fish in the tank will ever messes with her but she will get in between two fighting fish and gently wave her body. Sort of a mother stopping two bickering teenagers lol

[Jenene]

I wonder if you can train your discus to do tank wipe downs? :)

My rafflesia does the same. No other fish in the tank will ever messes with her but she will get in between two fighting fish and gently wave her body. Sort of a mother stopping two bickering teenagers lol

That is so cool...I wonder if that is the top dog kind of job? Same with my Eruption. Very interesting. Reminds me of a herd of elephants! I know there is a hierarchy but I didn't realize being at the top was such an active attribute.

[John_Nicholson]

They are an animal with a brain the size of a pencil eraser....They are not intelligent creatures. They do have instincts that we find appealing. Confusing that with intelligence would be a mistake in my opinion.

-john

[Clawhammer]

Agree with John that their behavior is all instinctual, although I see no harm in a little Anthropomorphism for our pets...

[Second Hand Pat]

Growing up a kid we humans were really bad about generalizing all animals as "dumb". In my lifetime we as humans have discovered that many animals are way brighter then we have given them credit for in the past. Regarding fish....time will tell. :)
Pat

[Ryan925]

Jenene are you implying we may have a discus manned mission to Mars in our future??��

[Hart24601]

I have always thought compared to my other fish Discus seem quite unintelligent. I mostly attribute this to their skittish nature of course and not really intelligence of fish species though - just how I interpret their ingrained natural behavior - Like several threads about them getting so spooked at nothing we can see they will smash the tank wall and die, never had happen with any other species! Just their nature really. I do wonder if there have been any intelligence studies between fish studies, I know there have been on octopus which are quite intelligent.

[Clawhammer]

I think my betta is my "smartest" fish. Very interesting question though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_intelligence

[Ryan925]

I have always thought compared to my other fish Discus seem quite unintelligent. I mostly attribute this to their skittish nature of course and not really intelligence of fish species though - just how I interpret their ingrained natural behavior - Like several threads about them getting so spooked at nothing we can see they will smash the tank wall and die, never had happen with any other species! Just their nature really. I do wonder if there have been any intelligence studies between fish studies, I know there have been on octopus which are quite intelligent.

Those octopus maze/puzzle studies are so cool

[RogueDiscus]

I think my betta is my "smartest" fish. Very interesting question though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_intelligence

Thanks for the link. It brings up the question of what we mean by intelligence. I recently saw my pair herding their fry away from the siphon hose while changing water and it made me think they were teaching them. Still probably instinctual. While trying not to anthropomorphize, it's interesting to wonder whether they problem solve or not.

[Jenene]

Jenene are you implying we may have a discus manned mission to Mars in our future??��

Never say never Ryan! :grin:

[jmf3460]

I think cichlids in general are smarter than most other ornamental fish we keep. I've kept a number of SA cichlids and in general they all recognize me and can differentiate between my human appearance and my husbands. They never beg him for food so I know they know the difference between him and I.

Now this is a story I have and its true regardless of what you say, I had a fish once, it was a Oreochromis mossambicus which I guess is a type of cichlid maybe. The thread on William can be seen here, http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113136-help-me-id-this-fish&highlight= This fish was highly intelligent. I'm not kidding he would pick up rocks and sling them at the side of the tank if you were standing there, to get your attention. I mean you would be standing 10 feet away and hear this tiny tap in the distance then I finally figured out what he was doing. He would stare at me straight in my eyes if I were sitting in the recliner 10 feet away. William would gather up food and dig a hole and stash it in the hole if he wasn't hungry when I fed him then I would catch him digging the pellets out and eating them later, basically gobbling the whole area where he buried the food then spitting out the gravel. He never ate a single fish in the tank with him (lemon tetra) despite what everyone on the thread told me about his aggressive behavior. I swear he would watch tv, he would basically swim still and watch tv getting all excited and swimming faster if the scene was intense with lots of colors or fire or something. plus he would basically follow me across the room and then if I re entered the room he would be still there waiting for me to come back through the door, hard to explain but his tank was in an area that had walk buys from the kitchen to the living room.

William still lives today actually, I gave him back to my best friend who is a biologist, they have him in a huge tank at their office, he continues to live with guppies and mosquito fish that her company sells for dissection experiments and doesn't eat them. She says he still hides his pellets and eats them later.

[Jenene]

They are an animal with a brain the size of a pencil eraser....They are not intelligent creatures. They do have instincts that we find appealing. Confusing that with intelligence would be a mistake in my opinion.

-john

Well body size to brain ration I respectfully disagree. There is so much we don't know. I only started this thread because I thought the behavior was interesting be it intelligent or instinctual- it is still worth noting. Was not looking to debate the difference. They are certainly not ready for calculus.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well body size to brain ration I respectfully disagree. There is so much we don't know. I only started this thread because I thought the behavior was interesting be it intelligent or instinctual- it is still worth noting. Was not looking to debate the difference. They are certainly not ready for calculus.

Well darn, I was thinking of teaching that next :badmin:

[RogueDiscus]

d(growth)/d(time)=f(water change)

[Jenene]

I think my betta is my "smartest" fish. Very interesting question though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_intelligence

Very interesting Eric thanks for that. I am also going to have to look up the Bony-Eared Assfish...I just can't leave that one to the imagination...:confused:

[Jenene]

Growing up a kid we humans were really bad about generalizing all animals as "dumb". In my lifetime we as humans have discovered that many animals are way brighter then we have given them credit for in the past. Regarding fish....time will tell. :)
Pat

+1 on that Pat. The funny thing is there is so much WE don't know.:)

[Jenene]

Jenene are you implying we may have a discus manned mission to Mars in our future??��

Not quite Ryan! You must be home sick from work again and really bored! Your imagination is getting the better of you. ;)

[CammieTime]

Oscar fish are smart, they act basically like a puppy.

[afriend]

I don't know if this is intelligence or not, but my fish have learned to recognize me from anyone else (I'm the only one that feeds them). They will gather together at the end of the tank closest to me and watch what I do. If I stand up or take a step towards them they will begin their "shimmy dance" indicating that they want to be fed. They do not exhibit this behavior towards my wife or anyone else, just me. Even if I am sitting far across the room and simply move like I'm about to stand up, they will start their dance. I even tested this by having someone else sit in my easy chair with the same shirt that I'm wearing and they clearly know the difference.

[RogueDiscus]

My cat does her own similar thing, too. Almost like they're training us!

[Kyla]

discus seem pretty smart to me.

the next several hundred years will prob settle the argument about whether humans are as intelligent as fish.

https://m.phys.org/news/2013-12-humans-smarter-animals-experts.html

[LoGeek]

Well darn, I was thinking of teaching that next :badmin:


discus seem pretty smart to me.

the next several hundred years will prob settle the argument about whether humans are as intelligent as fish.

https://m.phys.org/news/2013-12-humans-smarter-animals-experts.html

Ha ha... that article is just redefining what we mean with the word intelligence. Dogs are obviously smarter at being dogs than we are, and also have qualities that we lack. Dumb article :)

The fish I've had doing the weirdest non-fishy things was an Elephantnose fish. They are really cool to watch!

[Kyla]

someone mentioned oscars being like puppies, they were my first fish and def a fav cuz of their eager begging and eye contact. i also found my fire eel to be very curious and playful.

[Jenene]

Well this turned out differently than I had thought. Many different opinions as usual. If we all thought the same way the world would be a very boring place.

Intelligence verses instinct and all the behaviors in between...we relate them to our own experiences to try to understand them. Yes, a discus that slams head on into glass and dies may not be seen as smart. I would see that as instinct- fight or flight. However before the discus crashed and died he may have exhibited a behavior in his lifetime that could be viewed as learned- such as in some of the examples above. All living things including humans do "dumb" things but that does not dismiss the idea that maybe they do contain some kind of intelligent thinking. Surely there will always be debate about it. Maybe someday one of our kids will publish a more scientific article that will enlighten us. Until then enjoy those quirky fish-discus and non-discus and all those crazy things they do that keep us watching...

If anything this thread has made us all think a little and use our intelligence (or not :confused:) to try to understand something we may really know little about.

[afriend]

Well said Jenene.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jenene, concerning instinct many people call horses stupid when they are riding along and suddenly the horse turns and bolts dumping the rider. People forget that horses are a prey animal and view the world totally different. Discus are a prey animal too and that sudden dash is caused by a shadow, a sudden light or whatever.
Pat

[Filip]

Interesting and quite brainstorming thread Jenene :) .
I will just quote Douglas Adams here without adding anything else ;) :

"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons."

Douglas Adams,
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[bluelagoon]

I don't know if this is intelligence or not, but my fish have learned to recognize me from anyone else (I'm the only one that feeds them). They will gather together at the end of the tank closest to me and watch what I do. If I stand up or take a step towards them they will begin their "shimmy dance" indicating that they want to be fed. They do not exhibit this behavior towards my wife or anyone else, just me. Even if I am sitting far across the room and simply move like I'm about to stand up, they will start their dance. I even tested this by having someone else sit in my easy chair with the same shirt that I'm wearing and they clearly know the difference.

That is called "conditioning".

[bluelagoon]

Yes,fish are intelligent.They even travel in schools.haha!

[CammieTime]

Jenene, concerning instinct many people call horses stupid when they are riding along and suddenly the horse turns and bolts dumping the rider. People forget that horses are a prey animal and view the world totally different. Discus are a prey animal too and that sudden dash is caused by a shadow, a sudden light or whatever.
Pat

That's right. A horse that seems totally in command of its actions and surroundings can get seriously spooked and freak out at a little leaf that blows across the trail.

[Jenene]

Interesting and quite brainstorming thread Jenene :) .
I will just quote Douglas Adams here without adding anything else ;) :

"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons."

Douglas Adams,
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Love that Filip- read it to my co-workers on my lunch in the teacher's lounge. Thank you;)

[Lido]

Interesting and quite brainstorming thread Jenene :) .
I will just quote Douglas Adams here without adding anything else ;) :

"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons."

Douglas Adams,
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Goodbye and thanks for the fish.

[Filip]

Goodbye and thanks for the fish.

Haha :) .
Unfortinarelly Casey , i think that we are not very far from that day ,when the dolphins will get to thank us for all our fish and check out of here :) .

[Discus_Diva]

This question has been running through my head for a while, when you approach the tank, for feeding or other purposes and the fish come to front of tank and "look at you" with pectoral fins flapping 10 to the dozen does that mean they are "smiling or pleased to see you?". Just a thought..i'll get my coat :D

[Jenene]

Haha :) .
Unfortinarelly Casey , i think that we are not very far from that day ,when the dolphins will get to thank us for all our fish and check out of here :) .


This question has been running through my head for a while, when you approach the tank, for feeding or other purposes and the fish come to front of tank and "look at you" with pectoral fins flapping 10 to the dozen does that mean they are "smiling or pleased to see you?". Just a thought..i'll get my coat :D

Some say this is "conditioning"- maybe, but it does not explain how they discern the difference between individuals since many only perform for their caretakers. That would require a degree of intelligence IMO especially since we can change our appearance by changing clothes, hair, glases...just say'n.

[afriend]

I would call it learned behavior. Quite similar in fact to what happens in our public school system. The student memorizes what the teacher wants and then performs on a test. Depending on the results on the test, the student is rewarded with a grade. Is this how one acquires intelligence, or is public education just conditioning?

[Willie]

Looks like some of you have very smart fish. Mine are dumber than rocks.

[Ryan925]

This question has been running through my head for a while, when you approach the tank, for feeding or other purposes and the fish come to front of tank and "look at you" with pectoral fins flapping 10 to the dozen does that mean they are "smiling or pleased to see you?". Just a thought..i'll get my coat :D

I tend to agree. When my wife walks passed the tank the fish pay her no mind or even startle sometimes. If I am within view of the tank they are ready to eat and all at the front glass. Being able to recognize who feeds them has to be some evidence of learning even if it's on a small scale

[Lido]

This is really a question for the ages. What defines "intelligence." Is it simply understanding a behavior and applying it or is it the ability to critically analyze to solve complex problems.

It is my personal belief that everything possesses some level of awareness, however the level of that awareness greatly differs from animal to animal.

I challenge you to wonder, is it the size of the brain or the complexity of neurons that run through the brain that ultimately decide how powerful a brian is. Has the opposable thumb contributed to our success more than the fact we have a complex brain? If you gave the same to an elephant would they then be more intelligent?

The factors in which decipher intelligence from adaptive learning are separated by such minutia I don't even think we completely understand what it means to be "aware." Every time the "animals are dumb" crowd comes up with another "it's because" it seems we find animals doing exactly that. Things like teaching young, adapting to new situations, solving complex issues, teaching others how to solve those issues.. the list goes on.

So to make a long story short, do I think discus show some sort of brain power, sure... Are they studying us to become the dominant life form on earth, probably not.

[Jenene]

This is really a question for the ages. What defines "intelligence." Is it simply understanding a behavior and applying it or is it the ability to critically analyze to solve complex problems.

It is my personal belief that everything possesses some level of awareness, however the level of that awareness greatly differs from animal to animal.

I challenge you to wonder, is it the size of the brain or the complexity of neurons that run through the brain that ultimately decide how powerful a brian is. Has the opposable thumb contributed to our success more than the fact we have a complex brain? If you gave the same to an elephant would they then be more intelligent?

The factors in which decipher intelligence from adaptive learning are separated by such minutia I don't even think we completely understand what it means to be "aware." Every time the "animals are dumb" crowd comes up with another "it's because" it seems we find animals doing exactly that. Things like teaching young, adapting to new situations, solving complex issues, teaching others how to solve those issues.. the list goes on.

So to make a long story short, do I think discus show some sort of brain power, sure... Are they studying us to become the dominant life form on earth, probably not.

Well said Casey, I agree completely. It is pretty interesting how this thread has brought up healthy debate and more questions. The thread was sparked by my one Eruption Leopard that seemed to be different from the others by doing things that looked like some kind of thought process (simple as it was) was going on. No calculus or world issues but a bit above what I had seen in the others and it just caught my curiosity to see if anyone else had seen similar behavior and it kind of took off...

[Donethur]

I think some people are confusing consciousness with intelligence. if intelligence is the ability to solve problems, then, for sure, they are intelligent, they for example can solve problems when they are trapped, chosing the best way to go away from the "trap".

Actually, there are a lot of scientific papers, reviews and documents demostrating that fish are actually intelligent.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/4601720/?reload=true

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-014-0761-0?version=meter+at+13&module=meter-Links&pgtype=article&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=http://query.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsitesearch%2F%3Factio n%3Dclick%26contentCollection%26region%3DTopBar%26 WT.nav%3DsearchWidget%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26pg type%3DHomepage&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-001-0116-5

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781444342536.ch13/summary