Help! Dead Discus

[Clawhammer]

Hello everyone, I need advice as I just found one of my discus dead and I have no idea why.

This weekend I added a sump, here is the thread below. Ever since, they all have been a little skittish and eating lightly (two days) but it appeared to me this was just adjusting to the changes. I worked on the tank for 6 hours with them inside, which stressed them, but the dead fish didn't act any differently than anyone else. I did a 80% WC yesterday and they looked normal this morning. I went upstairs to work, came down 2 hours later and he was gone. The others are acting a the same, slightly shier and less hungry than normal.

Could this be a dash and crash? He has some minor scrapes on his side, as well as a couple of the tankmates.

[Clawhammer]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?127777-Simple-Sump-Setup-Advice&highlight=

[Clawhammer]

Just tested everything, parameters are fine. No ammonia or nitrite, 3ppm of nitrate. No chlorine.

One thing to note, my municipality recently switched to a new water source about a week ago. Much higher pH, KH, and GH. I don't think this should kill them though.

[Clawhammer]

I am doing a 90% WC and another fish is looking sick. It is just listless (pigeon blood at the back) What is going on!!!!????!!!

These are two of my biggest fish!

Here is a video
https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipOv0vw81m7eCp6EFNra-PCM0dC5tHHRyYox0vz6

[jmf3460]

Eric your video doesn't show. So let me get this straight, everything turned weird after you added a sump filter right?? I would usually point to a non cycle going on if you changed filter systems but you say you have zero zero and 3ppm nitrate right?? and no chloramines?? are you aging your water before water changes??

[Clawhammer]

Another one is dying! Ill get these videos up in a minute

I used my canisters from my previous setup in line with my pump, so there is no problem with the cylcle. Used safe, added extra to make sure when I saw this behavior.

[Clawhammer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itECkjuF5fE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd9FtpWzYHs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPWhojbx9mE

[Clawhammer]

Pigeon blood is dead, my favorite fish.

[jmf3460]

gosh this is hard to watch, what a beautiful fish. ok what are we overlooking let me get the mods involved

[Clawhammer]

I had noticed a couple were dark yesterday, so I added carbon to one of the canisters 24 hours.

Sorry the facts are so disjointed, I can't believe what is going on right now.

What I added new... Poret foam, filter sock, new 29 gallon tank, siliconed in one baffles with aquarium safe sealant, two jebao dct4000 pumps, the overflow, overflow pipe. The cycle is absolutely up and running and I have been very diligent about adding water conditioner.

I am leaning toward something in the new water source, but I don't know what would make the fish sick like this. My muni switched from Bull Run to ground water after they found cryptosporidium in the Bull Run reservoir.

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Jacklyn, this is heartbreaking and I am totally confused. I saved that fish early in its life and nursed it back to health, now its gone :(

I have completed the water change. All fish are dark and breathing heavy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4c4qsPz1AU

[brewmaster15]

Eric,
When municiple water suppliers work on the lines or find a problem they flush the lines with heavy duty sanitizers... I would start by calling them and seeing if this was case. I would also filter thru carbon for now. Really sorry to hear this!
Al

[Clawhammer]

Eric,
When municiple water suppliers work on the lines or find a problem they flush the lines with heavy duty sanitizers... I would start by calling them and seeing if this was case. I would also filter thru carbon for now. Really sorry to hear this!
Al

Hi Al,

Ill get on the phone with them now. Carbon was running for 16 hours before these deaths this morning.

[Clawhammer]

Of course they are closed for Presidents day

[jmf3460]

add more carbon, you might want to go buy some water from the store in gallon jugs if you can. spring water perhaps??

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Jacklyn and Al, I know it isn't fun wading into an emergency like this, your support means a lot.

I also added two new heaters. Could this by stray voltage? How would I test?

I have added a lot of carbon already. I have an addition 100mg of matrix carbon I will go add.... I wish I hadn't done that water change.

[Clawhammer]

Another thing to note, I did a 60% WC this morning on my planted tank and the fish seem fine, even the cories and otos

[DJW]

I would call Wetspot, they might know if its something with the water.

A new pump could also be a source of electrical leakage. You need a multi-tester - you would test for voltage between the tank water and ground.

[Second Hand Pat]

Really sorry about this Eric. :(
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

add more carbon, you might want to go buy some water from the store in gallon jugs if you can. spring water perhaps??
+1
Hi Eric,
Just saw this. I've got a local warehouse food store with a big RO machine. You might look around. Something was in the water. May not be there anymore, but I'd keep changing water. Wish I could help more.
Steve

[Clawhammer]

Thanks everyone.

Dan, I called wetspot already, they hadn't changed water in a few days they said and had no info or guidance.

I am honestly totally confused. They died this morning within an hour of eachother and I changed the water almost 24 hours ago. All I did this morning was feed them FDBW, they seemed fine besides being less hungry then normal, which I chalked up to still being skittish from the tank changes. I saw both of the fish that died eat yesterday. The fish in my community tank had a 60% WC, and they seem fine atm.

What would be the effect of stray voltage on their behavior? Could that kill them?

[Clawhammer]

Anyone recognize those death throes? What would cause that kind of fairly sudden death? I pulled back the gills of the first one who died and they were dark red looking without any infection (im not an expert, but nothing visually seemed amiss). There was nothing on the outside of the fish that indicated sickness and they weren't abnormally swollen.

After the water change I think there aren't any other fish in immediate danger based on their behavior. I just fed them and most ate tentatively.

I am trying to work backwards, see what organ failing would cause this kind of death. It doesn't appear to be gill related to me, but any experience you can provide or additional information I can provide would be helpful.

This is terrible... RIP Discus Phil :( (the only discus I named, for his pepper 'stache)

[jmf3460]

Dan, I called wetspot already, they hadn't changed water in a few days they said and had no info or guidance.

What would be the effect of stray voltage on their behavior? Could that kill them?

this is scary, I order from wetspot a lot, to know that they do not do daily waterchanges is scary.

stray voltage would effect the entire lot of fish, you would see them bolt really fast all of a sudden as if hit by a strike of electricity.

[Clawhammer]

They said specifically that they don't do waterchanges on the weekends due to being really busy. I know they have a separate facility offsite at the airport, where they receive the fish and quarantine them before bringing them into the store. Their aquabid fish are probably out there...

I will say their discus in store look awful, they don't get fed everyday and I think get a weekly 50% wc. Discus Phil, who just died, was a rescue from there (with guidance from Brewmaster). He was on death's door when I brought him home and was almost 7" when he died this morning, first chance I had to measure him :(

Thanks for the description of stray voltage, I think I can rule that out.

[Discus-n00b]

Very sorry to hear this Eric, stay strong it's tough to watch I know we've all been there in some form at one time.

Did you rinse the sump when you added it? Any chance it had something in it or on it, or maybe the foam or something else inside of the sump, that might have gotten distributed or washed into the display when you fully put the system together? Any cleaning products or soaps used even in the room around it that might of gotten in? Is the planted tank near this tank?

I could see a change in the water being an issue too. Could very well be something like Al described.

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Matt.

Here is a brainstorm of the new equipment and what I did to clean it:

I did rinse the sump, just with hot water then dried it out with paper towel. No chemicals involved. I rinsed the poret foam, not extremely thoroughly, but enough for foam intended for a fish tank. I used an aquarium safe silicone. The filter sock I used was rinsed with tap water for about 90 seconds. The new pumps were not rinsed. Silicone sealant was used, cured for about 20 hours.

The planted tank is near the discus tank, about 10 feet from each other. No cleaning products have been used in the vicinity, we don't use a lot of chemicals for cleaning.

[brewmaster15]

Eric, the way the discus are laboring their breathing theres really looks to be a toxin in the water...

The symptoms the fish showed as it died also are what you would see for a toxin in the water...

What do you treat your water with? Did your water company use chlorine or chloramines?

[brewmaster15]

<
Silicone sealant was used, cured for about 20 hours
This may be the culprit... its not enough time in most cases:(

[brewmaster15]

Pretty sure Curing silicone gives off acetic acid.. It may be damaging their gill.

[brewmaster15]

Eric,
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/new-sump-now-fish-are-sick.382499/

[Clawhammer]

Pretty sure Curing silicone gives off acetic acid.. It may be damaging their gill.

Oh no! The bottle said 24 hours and aquarium safe. It was hard, so I decided to go forward. It was actually just about 24 hours before the fish swam in water that had been through the sump. Do I need to remove the sump now? It has been in the tank for 48 hours... would it be cured?

[brewmaster15]

Eric to be safe I would disconnect it.... let it cure a few more days.

I would also add salt to the tank...1 tablespoon per 5 gals ..it will help with the gills.

Still check with your water company when they open... but that sumps a logical cause

[jmf3460]

do you have another tank you can pull the fish to with water that hasn't run through the sump?? a brute trash can anything??

[Second Hand Pat]

Or take the sump offline and do a large water change.

[Clawhammer]

I just took the sump offline and did a 100% waterchange, added salt. They are still dark and breathing heavy, although they seemed to perk up at the beginning of the waterchange. I am going to get them some privacy for 30 minutes and see if their looks improve. Will there be any residual toxins? Should I do another large WC later tonight?

If you saw my sump thread, I actually have my canisters inline. I am now going to go drain the canister and hook them back up directly to the tank (ugh) and drain my sump. I am going to let it sit for a few days then fire things back up. What do you guys think?

Can't believe I killed my favorite fish... The tube says aquarium safe and even has a silhouette of a discus on it

[brewmaster15]

You should be okay as far as water changes.. if there was a toxin leaching from the silicon and it burned the gills you may not see immediate improvement... also dont feed them anymore for the next day or so. The gills are where fish excrete alot of ammonia...if they are impaired... that ammonia has no where to go...meaning more stress.

If this is from the silicone, its a real bummer Eric. I always wait a few days when I seal a tank. In general, Cure time can be variable with silicone. Usually the set time is around 24 hours but curing can take much longer.:(

[Filip]

I'm very sorry about your loss Eric and I can completely relate to how you feel right now .
Less than a month ago I have lost all my 6 grown ups underestimating the huge bioload in my 20 g QT .

I can't guess the reason for your water toxicity , I would just trust Al at this point , but all I can say is that mine expressed the exact same behaviour shown on your videos before they died , one by one in less than a 10 hour period.Discus remain Calm and skittish , and one by one starting swimming listlessly and off balance with sudden quick and uncoordinated movements.All of them darkened with both fins clamped .

According to Al it was a Nitrite toxicity aka Brown blood disease and the symptoms were pretty similar like on this videos.

Do everything you can to save the rest of your gorgheous looking stock . I'll keep my fingers crossed for you Eric .

[Clawhammer]

Thanks Al. I am pretty sure you pinpointed the problem, and probably just in time. I turned off the lights, drained and hooked my canisters back up directly, the fish are looking much more normal. 10-4 on the feeding. I really want to thank you for jumping in, I think I got the sump offline just in time. I will be warning people on the forums about the risks of improper curing of silicone for the rest of my life.

Filip, appreciate the moral support, I feel terrible right now. Reading your story was helpful, your description of their behavior was dead on. I am keeping my fingers crossed too, but I am hopeful. Its been 5 hours since a loss and the fish look more energetic and have lightened up.

[Clawhammer]

... also dont feed them anymore for the next day or so. The gills are where fish excrete alot of ammonia...if they are impaired... that ammonia has no where to go...meaning more stress.(

I am thinking this is why my two biggest fish died today, they were the ones that ate the most yesterday. Probably died from Ammonia toxicity because they couldn't excrete it through their gills.

[Clawhammer]

Just wanted to upload this as a thank you to everyone who supported me today.. Seriously, kept me from losing it. Special thanks to Al again, this is the second time your advice has saved my fish. I think there should be a forum rule that states once you weigh in with a final thought, the thread should just be closed!

Its a sad day, but I believe they are on their way to recovery


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIBm968P0oY

[Second Hand Pat]

Really happy things are working out Eric. :D Al is super helpful in these situations. He has saved my fish a time or two.
Pat

[jmf3460]

are they looking better this morning Eric??

[Clawhammer]

Good morning Jacklyn, yes, things are still looking up this morning. Just completing a large WC to ensure all traces of acetic acid are out of the water. There have been no additional deaths since disconnecting the sump. Due to the rapid nature of the deaths yesterday, I am not completely breathing easy yet, but I am optimistic that the remaining discus are on the mend.

Thanks again for quickly jumping in yesterday!

[jmf3460]

I'm glad to hear that things are looking up Eric. What I really hope is that other people are reading this thread and can learn from this. If we do determine that the sealant was the sole determinant than we need to put something out there about your brand of sealant so that others don't make the same mistake.

[Clawhammer]

I'm glad to hear that things are looking up Eric. What I really hope is that other people are reading this thread and can learn from this. If we do determine that the sealant was the sole determinant than we need to put something out there about your brand of sealant so that others don't make the same mistake.

Yes! The idea that this thread could help prevent someone else from going through this makes me feel better about the situation. I did a lot of research, but never came across a warning about the silicone. I only siliconed in one thing, grating to hold my poret foam, so I didn't do much research on baffles or using the silicone.

Here is the product I used, DAP All-Purpose Adhesive Sealant 100% Silicone. The instructions give a flat 24 hour cure time. I started setting up the new arrangement after about 20 hours of cure time, but did not get water into the sump until about 25-26 hours. Regardless, what is haunting me, is that I did detect a slight vinegar smell still after 20 hours, I should have know better. Regardless, this tube has a picture of a fish on it, and it should be much more specific about the risks and cure time for aquarium applications.

107442107443

I do now believe with confidence the silicone was definitely the issue based on the symptoms and how they have reacted since taking the sump offline.

[Clawhammer]

Ok, in searching for the images, I found this, which I have to say is making me pretty angry. How could they put something out like this and not update the instructions on the tube?

"11. Sealant cures and bonds in 24 hours. Allow sealant to cure 48 hours prior to using aquarium. Optimum
strength is achieved in 7 days. Sealant will not cure in totally confined spaces"

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/a4/a4554e71-1b16-47c6-99ce-ea4e59b8d936.pdf

Here is the tube.. 24 hours, no caveat, no instructions to seek out further information... DAP is about to catch a small claims case

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kT67T-81MvPScNOQPiQwG2kqhxxlqRKwPstco_jrO3OePiD8hJQFHA_i UyNzHB0EMnu8vNRr2lSjC493DgF38kiBy4TXmrDCrN7GLfRD49 BLZRVuGK6UjAGILZiBwFYNlv-kuhj6BqiqSxwWAfHxIVXJGFufRBfU1eB71-gcg1gVqtqeWbWwPqfvXjGMjAYG7gtIyCq8WcNB5bH8_OWcYI1I DaWuT1ljieKYJGBt4jm7ZKtcN6ptW0XwqjsApPASZXddkPk3pG SbK71NFBpxAlcMP9ieSnNWMPK7IIVl7DUR2v9FtXf_UbV7RRQt 6tBxJL3W_VhQBzjghiJs8k5XJ4mWJOH7dX7Ac2BAOVvdnEglmX sDHF3OhJq-OclZikenCTLMaDuqUHqyoBVVWbfWmZdbb9A87PnK_iqRQ7zilS gyHj_NPF4GCMkD6-jPUkL24d4hnfeSKKro1UkhdJpke8dj-vUHWJ--slnx447jmiqVfaYhu5rx2cnlmf-euBvQTHxBLt_dlzRi4JpZRPw3RYKY4Qhxw9V0MYI8C956o0VrN Q818LXCfFR3MjcQyASrgI2CNoB2M2ACHh7DeonfbaHEFOxw0hv tJHOBhJvsfE0GZaIikeKriQ=w1145-h859-no

[brewmaster15]

Sorry to hear Eric, but at least you know now what the probable cause was... I'm glad the fish are doing better!. Thanks for the kind words too, but in this case Jacklyn's the real hero. She saw the issues you were having and how rapidly things were going south and reported this thread as really needing help... and Got my attention by doing so.

al

[Clawhammer]

Absolutely, Jacklyn rocks!

Real quick Al, when would you advise I start feeding again? Whats the prognosis with burned gills?

[brewmaster15]

I would say start feeding tomorrow. The gills will probably heal fine in a few days. Theres probably still some irritation and inflammation there so I would leave that salt in the tank another day or two also..


Al

[Jack L]

glad you are on a better track now.

just now catching this thread after the fact, but a question i had as i read through it was the part where they were doing worse after water changes, and the video showed them breathing hard too. wouldn't doing a WC dilute the toxin of the curing silicon, not make it worse, right? i'm not saying the silicon didn't do it, but am thinking the WC should have diluted it.

so my question is do you age your tap water during this?

I recently killed off 1/2 a black neon school doing WC and forgetting about PH swing. my tap water swings sometimes more than others. why it killed some and not others i don't know. but the way your PB was acting was exactly the behavior i saw with the Neons.

[Clawhammer]

glad you are on a better track now.

just now catching this thread after the fact, but a question i had as i read through it was the part where they were doing worse after water changes, and the video showed them breathing hard too. wouldn't doing a WC dilute the toxin of the curing silicon, not make it worse, right? i'm not saying the silicon didn't do it, but am thinking the WC should have diluted it.

so my question is do you age your tap water during this?

I recently killed off 1/2 a black neon school doing WC and forgetting about PH swing. my tap water swings sometimes more than others. why it killed some and not others i don't know. but the way your PB was acting was exactly the behavior i saw with the Neons.

Hi Jack, appreciate your input... Definitely a good point. I do not age my water because my water as it normally only goes from 6.8 to 6.6 with aging, not a big enough swing to necessitate aging. However, I have not done the 24 hour aeration test since my municipality switched water sources. I am confident that the silicone is what caused the deaths of my fish, but if there is a large pH swing, it could be a major contributing factor in their distress.

I am going to get a better idea of the change in pH for this new water source and report back. Thanks!

[Clawhammer]

Quick follow up here. I waited until the afternoon in order to give my tank 24 hours, and tested the pH versus the tap water from the new source. On my API kit the range is 6.0 to 7.6, both test tubes showed 7.6.

I suppose this means they are likely both about 7.6, can someone please confirm that?

So, I likely need a high pH test to test the need for aging the new source water. My original water was 6.6 to 6.8 pH, so the new water is quite a departure from what they are used to. I also wonder if the increased pH has an effect on the toxicity of acetic acid.

I am going to get a handle on the need to age tomorrow when I get the high pH test. Thanks again Jack.

[RogueDiscus]

I would agree you need the high range kit. If it's showing the top of the scale, then you don't really know where it is.