Bare Bottom vs Sand/Wood

[Clawhammer]

I picked up this pool filter sand on Amazon. I know I paid too much, no need to comment :) This was recommended by a trusted source

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JJ5GXSK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am doing an experiment to see if the increased water changes I am planning to account for the increased biomass are worth it for me and the fish. The main reason I am doing this is because I think my fish are bored in the plain tank. I don't mind the ascetics of a plain tank, and I know they love the clean water, but I had them with sand and wood for about a week in the beginning, and they spent a lot of time "puffing" the sand and exploring the wood. Of course, it is also nice to observe these natural instincts in action.

This is a 120 gallon tank with a 29 gallon sump. 10 adult discus 5-6.5". Before adding the decor, I was changing 70% every other day. I plan to do 50-60% daily with the decor. Also, in a few weeks I will be getting 5 more discus from Kenny. Between all the QT time, I have a couple months to make a decision.

Here are some before and after pictures, would love to hear some feedback and ideas! Also, I am going to try to post a poll :)

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[Jenene]

That looks great Eric. Would the wood be too tall if you tipped it up? Looks like there would be a nice swim through and easier to clean under. You could tie some plants on the wood as well. I put java moss on mine and it is doing so well I have to trim it. I give it a swish with my hand to get any caught debris during a water change.

I still have not done the sand. I love the ease of cleaning the BB but love your sand. Very nice!

[alron2]

Eric, looks great. Is the sand as white as sugar? I would really be interested in knowing how much additional time it adds to keeping the bottom clean. I am thinking about doing the same in an one gallon tank.
Thanks for posting your pictures.
Ron

[Kyla]

i vote BB + wood, a compromise!

[discuspaul]

Perhaps it's just me, but I really go for a small layer of sand (preferably white) & 1 or 2 pieces of driftwood arrangement, much more so than a painted bare-bottom set-up.
It's far more aesthetically pleasing, and I've always thought the discus seem to be more comfortable in it too !
Very easy to keep squeaky clean.

[Steelman]

No comparison. Sand and wood looks much better.

[Ryan925]

Sand and wood for sure. I really don't think thin sand is very hard to clean at all. Most everything sits on top then occasionally I turn mine over while I vac. The fish definitely love searching the sand for food as well as cleaning wood.

[farebox]

A few months ago I brought the same brand of sand to lay a thin layer in my 125G discus tank too. Well after 2 months removed all of it. Got tried of cleaning it daily and algae growing on top surface of the sand. I hope you have better luck with your sand than I did. Shout out for all the bare bottom people out there!

[Filip]

The sand with wood looks much nicer and natural , no doubt . Couple of plants attached to the wood like Jenene sugested would make it even more eye appealing.
With that said , IME I still think that you can never get close to the cleanness of BB tank no matter how diligent your cleaning routines will be . The sand will be always full of Micron dirt no matter how frequent youll vacumm it.Just a deeper sand shake with your hand will show you this.
I voted sand and driftwood because I like the look of an natural tank and I see it as a compromise between ours and discus needs .

The good thing is that you can always go back to BB if you decide that you are a BB keeper .

[JBurgo]

+1 for Anubias or something on the wood for a splash of colour. Looks a little less like a holding tank, and I too like their natural behaviour and think it's worth it.

[Kyla]

i tried sand for a while but felt it was never quite as clean as the BB so i removed it. Tank def looked better with it tho.

[Clawhammer]

Thanks for all the responses everyone, it looks like the sand/wood is leading by a landslide. Initially, I am very pleased with the changes in my discus. Their colors seem more vivid (probably due to slight darkening in response to the wood). There are definitely more active, exploring the wood and sand. They are constantly tilting at funny angles to inspect the sand or wood, which is entertaining.

It is early, but I am leaning toward keeping it. Certainly the poll has sent me a clear message!

Here is a video from this morning. All look well, although my brilliant turq is behaving a little oddly. He is tilting and breathing a little heavy, but I am pretty sure it is a behavioral response to the changes/stress. He seems to be acting that way on purpose and it is intermittent (acting normal on the video)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xog4P21cU88

[Clawhammer]

That looks great Eric. Would the wood be too tall if you tipped it up? Looks like there would be a nice swim through and easier to clean under. You could tie some plants on the wood as well. I put java moss on mine and it is doing so well I have to trim it. I give it a swish with my hand to get any caught debris during a water change.

I still have not done the sand. I love the ease of cleaning the BB but love your sand. Very nice!

I definitely see some anubia in this tank's future!

[Clawhammer]

Eric, looks great. Is the sand as white as sugar? I would really be interested in knowing how much additional time it adds to keeping the bottom clean. I am thinking about doing the same in an one gallon tank.
Thanks for posting your pictures.
Ron

Yes, I would say sugar is a pretty close comparison. The individual grains are a little more transparent than sugar, but I wouldn't want it anymore white than it already is.

[Clawhammer]

My discus definitely seem less skittish after adding the decor

[Clawhammer]

That looks great Eric. Would the wood be too tall if you tipped it up? Looks like there would be a nice swim through and easier to clean under.

This was such a great idea, I don't know how it didn't dawn on me! It is so much easier to keep clean this way and the fish seem to relish swimming between the branches.

I think it looks great as well. I am planning to go get two anubias which I will put in pots on each side, and some java moss today.

Here is a picture. I just fed them, so ignore the mess!

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[Jenene]

Yay! That looks great Eric. You would have come up with it. I can't wait to see the plants on/around it. Keep us in the loop!

[emil]

I do like sand an driftwood and some water lily in my 75 gallon tank. My Discus enjoy it also :) 108105108106108107

[Filip]

This was such a great idea, I don't know how it didn't dawn on me! It is so much easier to keep clean this way and the fish seem to relish swimming between the branches.

I think it looks great as well. I am planning to go get two anubias which I will put in pots on each side, and some java moss today.

Here is a picture. I just fed them, so ignore the mess!

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You don't need pots for anubias Eric . You can just anchore them to a small stone or a piece of driftwood.
Java moss is a very efficient dirt catcher , so try not to put too much moss in your tank.

[Jenene]

You don't need pots for anubias Eric . You can just anchore them to a small stone or a piece of driftwood.
Java moss is a very efficient dirt catcher , so try not to put too much moss in your tank.

Filip is very right. The Java moss does collect lots of stuff. I trim it to keep it from getting too crazy and before a water change give it some good swishes and tussles with the syphon nearby.

I actually tied it on some sharp spots on the wood. Works great as bumper pads for my crazy Blue Diamond.

[discuspaul]

Emil, your tank looks superb - love it !
You might think about trying Seachem Purigen in your filter - it will produce crystal clear water in your tank.

[JBurgo]

+1 for putting the anubias on the log. That long horizontal branch is just asking for one there. That way you can remove the log occasionally, and the plants go out with it.. for a good hoovering.

I don't understand the use of stones in tanks. Seems hard to clean around. I use rocks in my Cichlid tank because they need the caves, but I'd love to be able to remove them.

[LoGeek]

I can definately relate to the behavioural change of the discus after adding some decor. I added lots of driftwood with plants (no sand though) to my bb tank a while back. The change in behaviour was obvious. They are much more active, always inspecting the decor at funny angles.

[emil]

Thank you Discuspaul for kind words. Yes I do use seachem purigen and water is clear however picture is maybe little bit dark as I only use HO T5 2x54Watt - 1.5 Watt per gallon light, it keeps algae under control and also discus do appreciate it as they do not like bright light. Both discus and water lily looks happy and both grow well and enjoy this biotope. Also I do daily 50% water changes. Now I recall that before I took picture I was dosing Seachem potassium and iron and it makes water a little bit cloudy - milky. :)

[Clawhammer]

Thank you Discuspaul for kind words. Yes I do use seachem purigen and water is clear however picture is maybe little bit dark as I only use HO T5 2x54Watt - 1.5 Watt per gallon light, it keeps algae under control and also discus do appreciate it as they do not like bright light. Both discus and water lily looks happy and both grow well and enjoy this biotope. Also I do daily 50% water changes. Now I recall that before I took picture I was dosing Seachem potassium and iron and it makes water a little bit cloudy - milky. :)

Dose them on the opposite sides of the tank or wait a couple minutes between the two and there will be no cloudiness :) beautiful tank btw!

[emil]

Thanks for advice Eric I will try it. Thanks :)

[Clawhammer]

I went out and picked up four anubias, dipped them in bleach, and got them into the tank :)

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Although it does looks a little pathetic next to this tank

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[Jenene]

The top tank is better because it has Discus in it! It is looking great Eric! The discus look like they are having fun with the new plants too.

Now I think I need to stick an Anubias on mine. I was noticing the texture of the moss on mine is nice but it is pretty dark green. Some Anubias would pop. I have a natural hole in mine. Perfect place to stick it! :) Although I am known to have a black thumb..Let's see how many ways I can find to kill a water plant that already has water.:p

[JBurgo]

Looks great Eric.

Anubias is prone to algae, although with our water changes it's lessened. I found if you pull the plants out twice a week, long enough for the surface of the leaves to dry and then put them back in, it helps the algae not to take hold. That would be my reason to put them all on the log, one movement and the whole thing is out and drying out in an empty bucket. But by no means interpret that as me wanting you to do that, that's purely personal preference. The green really contrasts with the red on the Discus doesn't it :) .

+1 Jenene I much prefer the Discus tank.

[Ryan925]

Looks great Eric.

Anubias is prone to algae, although with our water changes it's lessened. I found if you pull the plants out twice a week, long enough for the surface of the leaves to dry and then put them back in, it helps the algae not to take hold. That would be my reason to put them all on the log, one movement and the whole thing is out and drying out in an empty bucket. But by no means interpret that as me wanting you to do that, that's purely personal preference. The green really contrasts with the red on the Discus doesn't it :) .

+1 Jenene I much prefer the Discus tank.

Very true. It is so tough to keep the gsa off the leaves of the anubias without high flow. Love the anubias though. I was really fond of the coffefolia before I removed all my plants.

Looking forward to seeing your new fish from Kenny !

[Paul Sabucchi]

Great topic! Useful also for a newbie like me, trying to find out what setup is best for discus. The plan beig to get the 90+ gal tank in December and once cycled add the fish, probably 10 juvies around 3" to grow out. During the growth period I am leaving the tank BB, but is it advisable to put some wood to make the fish feel safer or shold I leave the tank totally bare untill completely grown? On one hand the breeder obviously keeps them in totally bare tanks so that is what the fish are used to, on the other hand although the tank will be in a calm spot there could always be something unexpected that suddenly spooks them so some shelter may be useful. Grateful for any advice

[Clawhammer]

Looks great Eric.

Anubias is prone to algae, although with our water changes it's lessened. I found if you pull the plants out twice a week, long enough for the surface of the leaves to dry and then put them back in, it helps the algae not to take hold. That would be my reason to put them all on the log, one movement and the whole thing is out and drying out in an empty bucket. But by no means interpret that as me wanting you to do that, that's purely personal preference. The green really contrasts with the red on the Discus doesn't it :) .

+1 Jenene I much prefer the Discus tank.

Thanks Jason, removing the plants to fight algae is a great tip! Actually, the ones tied to stones will be the easiest. I just used a large pebble, just enough to weigh them down. I can easily pick them up and plop them wherever I want. I will definitely follow this guidance. The anubia in my planted tank gets hard to remove gsa that even trumpet snails can't remove.

[Clawhammer]

Great topic! Useful also for a newbie like me, trying to find out what setup is best for discus. The plan beig to get the 90+ gal tank in December and once cycled add the fish, probably 10 juvies around 3" to grow out. During the growth period I am leaving the tank BB, but is it advisable to put some wood to make the fish feel safer or shold I leave the tank totally bare untill completely grown? On one hand the breeder obviously keeps them in totally bare tanks so that is what the fish are used to, on the other hand although the tank will be in a calm spot there could always be something unexpected that suddenly spooks them so some shelter may be useful. Grateful for any advice

I based on my limited personal experience, the next time I grow out discus, I will go with a plain tank until they are about 5", then make the switch. Wood definitely adds a lot less biomass to the tank than sand, so if wood were to make the juvis more comfortable, I think that would be a great compromise (as Kyla mentioned in an earlier post). I am sure someone will chime in with their experiences in this regard.

I know fish have very small brains and don't process happiness in the way that we do, but I have to think that it is good for their stress levels to have something to do in the tank. Trying to remove all anthropomorphism from my analysis, I still think it must be beneficial for discus to be able to exercise their natural behavioral instincts. I have noticed a decrease in panic attacks and a drastic increase in overall activity. The hypothesis that it would reduce aggression turned out to be incorrect, they all want to be king of the "castle". Even my little blue diamond who I thought had some form of discus anxiety disorder is much more confident and aggressive now.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks, I suppose cichlids will always be cichlids! I probably will keep the tank totally bare untill the fish are fully grown then possibly try to put some wood. Just been cutting some oaks for next year's heating so kept aside some nice branches, one inparticulal i.m.h.o. looks great, this way it has 2 full years to dry before going in the tank. Thanks for the advice, ciao from Italy

[Jenene]

I based on my limited personal experience, the next time I grow out discus, I will go with a plain tank until they are about 5", then make the switch. Wood definitely adds a lot less biomass to the tank than sand, so if wood were to make the juvis more comfortable, I think that would be a great compromise (as Kyla mentioned in an earlier post). I am sure someone will chime in with their experiences in this regard.

I know fish have very small brains and don't process happiness in the way that we do, but I have to think that it is good for their stress levels to have something to do in the tank. Trying to remove all anthropomorphism from my analysis, I still think it must be beneficial for discus to be able to exercise their natural behavioral instincts. I have noticed a decrease in panic attacks and a drastic increase in overall activity. The hypothesis that it would reduce aggression turned out to be incorrect, they all want to be king of the "castle". Even my little blue diamond who I thought had some form of discus anxiety disorder is much more confident and aggressive now.

That is an interesting observation Eric! I know that when my fish became extremely aggressive while hashing out the pecking order another more experienced member suggested I move the decor around a bit. All I had was a few pieces of driftwood but I was desperate so I just moved them a few inches this way or that. It worked! You actually trick them into thinking (or whatever you may call it) they are in a new environment and it can ease (or in your case increase some aggression.) So basically what you did was give them a new environment to which they need to re-establish a new pecking order. If it gets bad try turning the wood! Eventually they will work it out and peace will reign once again. ;)

[Filip]

Great topic! Useful also for a newbie like me, trying to find out what setup is best for discus. The plan beig to get the 90+ gal tank in December and once cycled add the fish, probably 10 juvies around 3" to grow out. During the growth period I am leaving the tank BB, but is it advisable to put some wood to make the fish feel safer or shold I leave the tank totally bare untill completely grown? On one hand the breeder obviously keeps them in totally bare tanks so that is what the fish are used to, on the other hand although the tank will be in a calm spot there could always be something unexpected that suddenly spooks them so some shelter may be useful. Grateful for any advice

From my experience discus hide and spook less in a complete BB tank rather than in a tank with wood plants or decor . They also fight less because they don't have anything to guard and fight for .
So I would def. advice you to go Complete BB if you don't mind the bare look .

[LoGeek]

From my experience discus hide and spook less in a complete BB tank rather than in a tank with wood plants or decor . They also fight less because they don't have anything to guard and fight for .
So I would def. advice you to go Complete BB if you don't mind the bare look .

Have many people experienced this? The fighting would make sense, but why would they be more easily spooked if you add some driftwood?

I added driftwood with plants some time ago and all behaviour change has been very positive.

[Filip]

Have many people experienced this? The fighting would make sense, but why would they be more easily spooked if you add some driftwood?

I added driftwood with plants some time ago and all behaviour change has been very positive.

To be honest Jorgen , i havent read many different experiences and oppinions on this subject yet .
i know that whenever i have moved mine in an empty QT tank they were always more relaxed as opposed to my planted display tank. Meaning, when i suddenly approach the tank with plants and decor they get spooked and they instinctly run and hide behind their secure zone , and decor and plants that is . And in a complete BB tank is like they know they got nowhere to hide and they just dart a couple of inches but still stay in the middle of the tank .
At least thats my modest experience with discus.

[LoGeek]

To be honest Jorgen , i havent read many different experiences and oppinions on this subject yet .
i know that whenever i have moved mine in an empty QT tank they were always more relaxed as opposed to my planted display tank. Meaning, when i suddenly approach the tank with plants and decor they get spooked and they instinctly run and hide behind their secure zone , and decor and plants that is . And in a complete BB tank is like they know they got nowhere to hide and they just dart a couple of inches but still stay in the middle of the tank .
At least thats my modest experience with discus.

Ok thanks for sharing. I'll keep that in mind if mine starts darting around.

I guess there's also a big difference whether one has sand or bb. I have driftwood with anubias but bb, so keeping the tank clean is easy. With sand and the water quality is easily compromised and the risk of fish darting around would seem higher.

[Filip]

Ok thanks for sharing. I'll keep that in mind if mine starts darting around.

I guess there's also a big difference whether one has sand or bb. I have driftwood with anubias but bb, so keeping the tank clean is easy. With sand and the water quality is easily compromised and the risk of fish darting around would seem higher.

Wrong wording and a little misunderstanding here Joregen .
I didn't meant darting around as a disease symptom or an I'll behaviour , but I meant to say they swim fast a couple of inches back , but they don't go hiding in the corners of the BB tank cause they got nowhere to hide . in the tank full of decor they instincly swim and hide behind the decor .
Hence they look less spooked in a complete BB in my experience .

On the matter BB Vs sand issue , im currently growing out 2 " discus in a BB tank but with couple of potted plants and the difference is night and day in water quality and the ease of cleaning the tank , compared to my previous planted setup with sand bottom.
Its so much healthier and cleaner environment that I'm not sure that I will go back to sand again without thinking twice about my decision.

[LoGeek]

Wrong wording and a little misunderstanding here Joregen .
I didn't meant darting around as a disease symptom or an I'll behaviour , but I meant to say they swim fast a couple of inches back , but they don't go hiding in the corners of the BB tank cause they got nowhere to hide . in the tank full of decor they instincly swim and hide behind the decor .
Hence they look less spooked in a complete BB in my experience .

On the matter BB Vs sand issue , im currently growing out 2 " discus in a BB tank but with couple of potted plants and the difference is night and day in water quality and the ease of cleaning the tank , compared to my previous planted setup with sand bottom.
Its so much healthier and cleaner environment that I'm not sure that I will go back to sand again without thinking twice about my decision.

Ok I see.

I tried sand in a grow out tank once too and it's never happening again!